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This must be almost as bad as Gitmo...

Discussion in 'The OT' started by Richard King, Jun 18, 2005.

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  1. Jun 18, 2005 #1 of 115
    Richard King

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    http://reuters.myway.com/article/20..._RTRIDST_0_NEWS-KOREA-NORTH-DEFECTORS-DC.html

    North Korean couple defects to South

     
  2. Jun 18, 2005 #2 of 115
    jonstad

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  3. Jun 18, 2005 #3 of 115
    Nick

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    LIberals whine when a few murdering MUSLIM terrorists get their feelings hurt @ Gitmo. Let the murdering MUSLIM terrorists in Iraq cut off a few innocent heads and not a freeping peep out of our resident socialists.

    Why is that? :shrug:
     
  4. Jun 18, 2005 #4 of 115
    Richard King

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    Well, now that one of our dear Senators has opened his trap and given headlines to Al Jazera I think it is time to look at the proportion of what is going on. So far NOT ONE prisoner in Gitmo has died, yet this scum DARED to ONCE AGAIN compare Gitmo to Hitler, the Gulags of Russia, and just for fun, added the killing fields of Cambodia. To put this scum in perspective, nine MILLION were killed in Hitler's camps, nearly three MILLION were killed in Stalin's Gulags, and 1.5 MILLION were killed in Cambodia. So far, five Korans have been abused in Gitmo, three unintentionally, yet this SCUM puts Gitmo in the same class as those other REAL torture havens. This not only shows a TOTAL disrespect to those service people at Gitmo, but it TRIVIALIZES EVERYTHING that happened in those other places.
     
  5. Jun 18, 2005 #5 of 115
    Nick

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    Well said, Richard. And to make matters worse, every time the Senator says something, terrorists in Iraq are emboldened and more American lives are lost. Do we have another Hanoi Jane here?
     
  6. Jun 18, 2005 #6 of 115
    Richard King

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    I FULLY expect this kind of CRAP from Amnesty International, I DO NOT expect it from a US Senator, the SECOND highest ranking Democrat, on the floor of the Senate!!
     
  7. Jun 18, 2005 #7 of 115
    Nick

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    "...aid and comfort to the enemy"
     
  8. Jun 18, 2005 #8 of 115
    Bogy

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    It's the "Richard and Nick" self-righteous act, seen here nightly, two shows on Saturday.

    It doesn't matter, he didn't really mean it, he was misunderstood, no one listened to him anyway so it doesn't matter, no one even knows his name.
    Pick any of the above, and just pretend we are talking about a Republican making his last mistake. You'll feel better. :D
     
  9. Jun 18, 2005 #9 of 115
    Nick

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    Bogy, for God's sake, change your location or the FBI won't be able to find you in time. :D
     
  10. Jun 18, 2005 #10 of 115
    Richard King

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    You obviously are speaking of Trent Lott.

    The scum that I have in mind was speaking from a prepared speech on the floor of the US Senate.
     
  11. Jun 18, 2005 #11 of 115
    pjmrt

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    The rhetoric from the democratic side is just ridiculous. One would have hoped they would have learned their lesson from the last election. Instead they bought into the fantasy by the liberal "spin doctors". They somehow think pushing farther to the left and shooting off their mouths with outrageous (and false) statements is the answer. They are not returning to their roots of old - they are returning to their roots of the McGovern era. And they will be about as effectial. They are making it easy for the republicans to not only hold on to their majority, but probably increase it in the next election.
     
  12. Jun 19, 2005 #12 of 115
    Richard King

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    That's an insult to McGovern. Even he was not known for making total fabrications and comparisons such as this. I doubt very much that, even during the height of the Viet Nam War, that he was comparing our troops to Nazis, Gulag guards and Pol Pot.
     
  13. Jun 19, 2005 #13 of 115
    SAEMike

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    Where are your endless posts complaining against this treatment? Or is it just when people who attack America are made uncomfortable that you get upset?
     
  14. Jun 19, 2005 #14 of 115
    jonstad

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    I think if you go back to the archives, you'll find quite a few "freeping peep(s)" condemning the loss of "innocent heads". If I recall correctly it was I, probably the most rabid of our "resident socialists", who began one of the threads with a complete and utter condemnation of the acts, not that it matters.

    The difference being some of us thought it called for proverbally and actually lopping off the heads of anyone perceived to be "agin' us". Others of us considered there should be a way to avoid the "lopping off of heads" altogether or at least significantly reduce the incidence of lopping.

    And I'm a little puzzled over your leap that any criticism of US policy must be "socialist" inspired. The Cold War(not that socialism was the issue) is history, get over it. If I wasn't actually a socialist:D, I'd be of a mind to report you to the administrators!;)
     
  15. Jun 19, 2005 #15 of 115
    jonstad

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    Just as "no law-abiding citizen should protest the sneak & peek or library and book store provisions of the Patriot act, because they should have 'nothing to fear'", so too if these comparisons are so invalid and groundless, the "law-abiding" US should have "nothing to fear" either. Or should we?

    To make my position perfectly clear, AGAIN, a few abused Qurans don't bother me in the least. Neither that occasionally a few of the detainees may have been roughed up, pushed around or humiliated. Worse goes on any random night at any big city police station(US and/or worldwide so you don't accuse me of singling out US police:)). The difference being Saturday night rowdies will be booked within a few hours and charged and/or released normally within 48.

    And there's my beef. Holding prisoners(any prisoners) incognito with no charge, hearing or legal counsel, FOR YEARS, runs counter to everything this country, MY country, was founded on. Who is being held at Gitmo and what are their crimes? Is there even a complete list of who is being held there? You're a conservative.(don't deny it!:D) Do you really trust the gubbiment not to abuse a situation where they have total power?

    You cannot imprison people for crimes they may possibily commit in the future. That's thought crime. And as a nation, and internationally in virtually every democracy, you cannot be punished for a crime until you actually commit it. For myself, I think that's probably a rule we should stick to.:scratchin Of course, I'm a "resident socialist".:grin: And if we're pretty sure someone we're holding is planning to commit a crime on release, that's what "conspiracy" charges are all about. What crime are they planning? And what are those plans? That's all you have to know.

    But we haven't charged these goons with crimes they've committed, nor with conspiracy to commit crimes in the future. For the most part we haven't charged them with anything except being in the wrong place at the wrong time on the wrong side. And even for a goon, that's not a charge that will stick.

    Again, flushed Qurans don't bother me. Generally it's a practice I encourage. And a few bumps and bruises, even if only to egos, is to be expected in any prison situation. Unfortunately, people would rather see and hear reports of abuse, torture and mental anguish rather then the boring minutia and legal analysis of the Geneva Conventions. I'm just hoping to shed some light on the bigger picture. That's the picture that concerns me. And that's the analogy to gulags and Nazis!
     
  16. Jun 19, 2005 #16 of 115
    jonstad

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    For the record, whenever the subject has come up, and IMHO it comes up far too seldom for reasons maybe you can explain to me, I have always unequivocably condemned Kim Jung Il and everything his North Korea does and stands for. Please point out any instance where something I have said could even be construed as praising or even condoning ANYTHING related to the practices and policies of NK. I would be happy to apologize publicly and immediately correct or remove it.

    That said, as a citizen of the USA, there is little I can do to change or even influence NK policies. Even a citizen of NK has little or nothing to say about it. In fact if they're smart, they'd be very careful NOT to have anything to say about it.:eek2: To whatever miniscule effect I may achieve, I DO have the right and ability to change and influence the policies of my own USA. And to a certain extent, what other countries do is none of my god damn business!

    OTOH, in their infinate wisdom, our current administration has chosen to squander our considerable military power and diplomatic integrity by concentrating both on a country that threatened no one and it is increasingly clear had no capacity to threaten anyone even if they were so inclined. The result is basically a free pass for NK and Lil' Kim!:nono2: So maybe I'm more of a sheep than I think. My leaders aren't outraged, so why should I be?

    But if you want to start a discussion of the surreal atrocity that IS North Korea, we can begin here. http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050515/news_mz1e15howard.html
    The video stills are from Dark Secrets: Children of a Secret State broadcast on Discovery Times Channel several months ago. http://times.discovery.com/convergence/insidenorthkorea/video/video.html I saw it. Did you? Or were you too busy nodding your head in agreement with Sean Hannity or listening to one of O'Reilly's rabid rants? I thought of starting a thread at the time but didn't. Sue me! Would anyone have really cared? Would the discussion have gone beyond one page?

    So let's start it now! Exposure of the monstrous conditions in NK in the minds of Americans might just prompt the "liberal media" to investigate and report more about it. And if they do, maybe something will finally be done about it. That is if we can muster enough troops to present a challenge that Kim will be forced to do more then laugh at.
     
  17. Jun 19, 2005 #17 of 115
    Richard King

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    Yea, I guess it was appropriate for the scum to compare Gitmo to a Gulag system. The parallells are amazing.
     
  18. Jun 19, 2005 #18 of 115
    Bogy

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    Or George W. Bush or whatever Republican opened his mouth last. These are all the rationalizations Republicans use when one of your own opens their mouth and sticks their foot in.
     
  19. Jun 19, 2005 #19 of 115
    Bogy

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    You are absolutely right. Democrats should leave total fabrications to the Republicans. Such as in speaking of WMDs or about Democrats. :lol:
     
  20. Jun 19, 2005 #20 of 115
    Nick

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    Having finally found a small, unused space nestled between your lengthy tomes, Jonstad, I am reluctant to point out a glaring error among your many valid and valuable assertions.

    "You cannot imprison people for crimes they may possibly commit in the future. That's thought crime. And as a nation, and internationally in virtually every democracy, you cannot be punished for a crime until you actually commit it."

    Minority Report II, The Bad News

    Patriot Act aside, there are several provisions of current criminal code that come to mind, the application of which, could be considered to rise to the level of being thought crimes. The most significant and common of these provisions are "intent" and "conspiracy".

    1. Intent - This is the purest example of a "thought crime". If a prosecutor or grand jury can be convinced that you thought about committing a crime, therefor you had the "intent" to commit a crime, you can be arrested, charged and tried for your thoughts. There is a need for corroborating evidence, of course, but that evidence may or may not be in any way related to the "intent" (thought) crime for which your are charged.

    2. Conspiracy - conspiracy to commit <illegal act> - where two or more persons communicate with one another in a manner that could be construed by a prosecutor or grand jury as rising to the level of conspiracy to commit a crime.

    3. Possession - possession or control of certain items, including information, that would be considered by law enforcement to be prima facia evidence (probable cause) that the possessor(s) of such items and/or information (knowledge) intended (constructive intent) to commit a crime. Such possession can even be without the knowledge of the person possessing contraband material. In this special case, the possessor could have no prior thought as to committing a crime, or of innocently possessing contraband or even a assemblage of otherwise legal materials, which, in their totality could be used to commit a crime.

    4. Suspicious Behavior/Association - If you act like you are thinking about committing a crime, or if you associate with person who either thinks about (intent) about, conspires to, or actually commits a crime, then you may be charged with a crime without even thinking about it.

    If you are a paranoiac like me, you watch what you say out loud, with whom you associate, what you acquire and what items you accept from others. There are tons of examples I could give, but I think most people can just use their imaginations to get a clear picture of what to do or not do to avoid being placed in a situation where you have to explain or defend your thoughts, statements or actions.
     
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