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TiVo vs. Dish: Judge orders Feb. 2009 hearing on infringement

Discussion in 'General DISH™ Discussion' started by Curtis52, Nov 20, 2008.

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  1. Dec 12, 2008 #981 of 1907
    vampz26

    vampz26 AllStar

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    I know...another poster here made reference to the fact that the courts in Texas were going out and hiring clerks with far greater technical skills than in the past. I was only speaking in reference to that...considering that the Texas courts may wind up being the 'graceland' of IP litigation after this nonsense concludes, it makes sense they would finally attempt to beef up their credibility some.
     
  2. Dec 12, 2008 #982 of 1907
    scooper

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    OK - so having read '389 -
    Claim 31 just describes the flow of data from tuner to display, using automatic flow control and responding to user commands to perform "trick plays" etc. and/or routing the video to one or more outputs

    Claim 61 is the same thing but add the harddrive as a "storage device"

    So why can't you "wordsmiths" simply say it ?
     
  3. Dec 12, 2008 #983 of 1907
    scooper

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    Now - to give a colorable difference -

    where's Echostar's use of automatic Flow control ?
     
  4. Dec 12, 2008 #984 of 1907
    Greg Bimson

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    That's where I said there could be a problem, 'cause I don't know...

    Except that automatic flow control was defined in the Markman as "self-regulating".
     
  5. Dec 12, 2008 #985 of 1907
    jacmyoung

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    Don't hold your breadth. I work with technical people and engineers, and I am kind of one myself, I can tell you technical people are the most argumentitive bunch of SOBs in the world, just take a look at these threads on E* v. TiVo:)

    We are lucky to have the "clueless" jury, and similarly "clueless" judge to settle the differences for us, else nothing can ever be done.
     
  6. Dec 12, 2008 #986 of 1907
    Ergan's Toupe

    Ergan's Toupe Duplicate User (Account Closed)

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    Really? Do tell!!!
     
  7. Dec 12, 2008 #987 of 1907
    scooper

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    And there isn't any flow control at all in the Echostar model . It is relying completely on the CPU being fast enough to keep up. No semaphores, etc. If the CPU stumbles, you lose data (i.e you can see / hear problems in the display section).
     
  8. Dec 12, 2008 #988 of 1907
    jacmyoung

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    Self-regulation, as TiVo's experts said, is achieved during TV image construction, by the use of multiple buffers, if one can't keep up, the flow through it is automatically stopped by the "transform object", and data get to be held off on another buffer until this one frees up. Without such self-regulation, people will see trashed images.

    E* claims they now use only one buffer for TV image construction, therefore self-regulation cannot happen and needs not happen as scooper explained. Again do not confuse these buffers with all the other different buffers.

    Where my understanding differs with the scooper's is, if I understood E* correctly, the single buffer now used by E* is much larger, even more so in the HD DVRs. Because of the much larger buffer, it has sufficient space to hold off any data that flows in. Of course the larger buffer is achieved only if the DVRs has much more on-board memory.

    I suppose this is another way E* is saying the newer DVRs now have more memories so the "self-regulation" is no longer necessary.
     
  9. Dec 12, 2008 #989 of 1907
    jacmyoung

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    You are again avoiding the issue here. I have tried to follow your explanation the best I could, and using your explanation, the data parsed by the physical data source that is then saved in a temporary memory buffer in step one, will simply never be used by anything, rather erased after the data is saved onto the hard drive, whether you admit there is a source object or not.

    In step two, the patent claims specifythat the data parsed by the physical data source has to be extracted by the source object for use in trickplays. If this step does not happen, step two is no longer met.

    All the other steps you described that happened after the storage in the hard drive, those are E*'s invention, not TiVo's invention, TiVo's claims never described such steps.
     
  10. Dec 12, 2008 #990 of 1907
    scooper

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    Actually they did - what's different between a telephone and a telegraph is their method and frequency of modulation for signal intellegence transmission.

    Now - I don't know how telegraphs could route to different locations (I've always understood it to be point-to-point circuits, so you could just have several endpoints co-located), but all of us know that telephones had operators connecting endusers circuits together. That eventually was replaced by the various generations of switch gear (now using computers).

    Next ?
     
  11. Dec 12, 2008 #991 of 1907
    vampz26

    vampz26 AllStar

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    GASP! :eek2:

    I had no idea that you were so poorly informed...

    Corporate extortion and consumer terrorism has been the entire litigation model for Tivo this entire case...

    Rather than just prove the case in court, they attempted to hold E*s customers hostage and attempt to strong-arm a decision in the trial. Thats about as unethical as it gets...

    I have no respect for an unethical company like Tivo that can't keep their negotations on the table where they belong...
     
  12. Dec 12, 2008 #992 of 1907
    vampz26

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    You got that right. Thats what happens when you have the tech folks who know whats going on, and the wanna-be lawyers who think they do. ;)

    I'm not touching this...:D :D :D

    But I can go to bed now a happy man, I assure you...:D :D :D

    you go back to arguing with Greg, I'll go watch this Jim Carrey, Jeff Daniels movie that came out a while back...its a good one... :)
     
  13. Dec 12, 2008 #993 of 1907
    Curtis52

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    I can't tell if you understand that the result of the PID parsing (AKA the video and audio data) is the actual program content data (the TV show) not some kind of table or statistics or whatever. Maybe you know that. I can't tell for sure.
     
  14. Dec 12, 2008 #994 of 1907
    jacmyoung

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    Too complicated scooper, all you need to say is, telegraph did not infringe on the telephone patent, even though they both used the same kind of wires.
     
  15. Dec 12, 2008 #995 of 1907
    Curtis52

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    The claims mention storage on a hard drive. Is that just as bad as mentioning parsing of broadcast data to obtain video and audio data? I mean, hard drives have been around for awhile.
     
  16. Dec 12, 2008 #996 of 1907
    vampz26

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    I believe the inference was with regards to building on and improving on existing technology. Something Tivo failed at and E* succeeded with. After all, your modern analog phone is still nothing more than a telegraph, except that the electromagnet in question that once moved the clicker, now moves a speaker...

    ...and no...it did not infringe....
     
  17. Dec 12, 2008 #997 of 1907
    scooper

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    The Echostar "Table of Statisitics" is somewhere between 10-20 variables and constants.

    Count of I-frames
    count of all frames (I + G +P)
    sizes of each (2 more)
    trick play speed
    direction of play

    There's probably a few more, but trust me - it isn't a very large set. If a trick play function gets called on - the CPU has to use these few items to calculate a file offset and jump /read until it finds an I-frame. There is no precalculation being done.
     
  18. Dec 12, 2008 #998 of 1907
    jacmyoung

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    That is the whole problem here, the result of the parsed audio/video data in the TiVo's claims is not the actual program content data, rather the frame index info sets, one for the audio, one for the video, built into two index tables. How so? Because the TiVo experts explained so.

    The only place the actual programming content is mentioned is in step 3 of both software claims:

    [3] providing a transform object, wherein said transform object stores and retrieves data streams onto a storage device.

    Here the "data streams" depict the actual programming content data streams, being recorded on to the hard drive, and read back, by the "transform object".

    That is precisely why it is wrong to construe the data streams coming out of the PID filter as the "audio and video data" in steps one and two.

    The "data streams" in step 3 are the ones coming out of the PID filter and being saved onto the hard drive by the "transform object".
     
  19. Dec 12, 2008 #999 of 1907
    James Long

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    If you're defending DISH that probably isn't a good standard to impose. :D

    Check out the numerous times DISH customers have lost channels or not had channels added to their programming packages when DISH's negotiations leave the table.

    Again, one company being "unethical" does not make the other "ethical".

    (BTW: I don't consider either company to be "unethical". Nothing personal, just business.)
     
  20. vampz26

    vampz26 AllStar

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    I'm not defending Dish, I'm attacking Tivo...

    Dish has its problems, no doubt...but Dish can only blame themselves...Tivo was looking to commit an act of consumer terrorism and use it for corporate extortion. Business or not, there are ethical matters that apply...
     
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