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TIVO wins E* Lawsuit - Potential Impact on ALL DVRs

Discussion in 'General DISH™ Discussion' started by HDTVFanAtic, Apr 13, 2006.

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  1. Anonymous

    Anonymous Legend

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    Jun 19, 2004
    Hard disk based time shifting is how TV stations have been doing instant replays and slo-mos since the 80s:

    from:
    http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/Media-Server-Tech/a_from_tape_to_disk.shtml

    COMPLIMENTARY COMPOSITING

    From 1984 going forward, more discrete production quality moving image digital-disk recording products appeared. Products from companies such as Quantel and Abekas also brought out complimentary compositing systems. For example, Abekas produced a stand -- alone digital -- disk recorder, the A60, which recorded 25 seconds of NTSC video onto two Y/UV disk drives, and gave rise to the Abekas A62 (in composite format) and the Abekas A64 (in component digital) formats-pairs of A60 series drives linked with video mixing, layering, and graphics control processors.

    It was 1989 when Avid Technology introduced and shipped the original Avid/1 Media Composer, setting off the digital-desktop editing revolution that would change video and film production forever. The non -- linear editor used proprietary motion -- JPEG imagining on a Macintosh platform, and external SCSI drives for storage.

    Since the introduction of the early video-disk recording device, the television industry has functionally transformed the disk recorder from a sports replay device into a tool with extensions well beyond those first single-purpose applications. Even with the 1991 introduction of HDTV disk recording by Philips, with the HDDR-1000; it would take two or three more years before disk recording concepts would mature to the level that a professional video server could be developed and sold, e.g., one of the first Tektronix Profiles, introduced in 1995.

    Today, throughout major broadcast and content-delivery centers, spinning disks are becoming the mainstay for moving image asset storage and playback. What once took 50, 24 -- inch diameter disk drives to store just 5 MB of 7 -- bit data; we now see redundant mirrored multi -- terabyte disk arrays attached to protected DVD -- RAM storage in similar footprints consuming an area about the size of the average living room. We can only wonder where the next 50 years will take us.

    TiVo seems to think that because their technology is for the consumer rather than for professionals they can patent it even though at the time of the patent the implementation was identical to many devices already being sold to and used by broadcasters at the time.
     
  2. Anonymous

    Anonymous Legend

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    Jun 19, 2004
    but they didn't want to, this way, they can make TiVo hemerage money they don't have on legal costs that will ultimately end with TiVo's patent being thrown out. Thus, be not easily presenting the Hard Disk based time shifting technologies that were already on the market before TiVo to the jury, Dish has ensured TiVo's bankruptcy because TiVo will continue to pay lawers for something they can't ultimately win.
     
  3. Greg Bimson

    Greg Bimson Hall Of Fame

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    May 5, 2003
    But once again, that equipment is for instant replays and slow-mos, not for use in buffering live television.
     
  4. jrb531

    jrb531 Icon

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    May 28, 2004
    Having just upgraded from my POS 508 which did everything I ever wanted to my new 622 with this ever so talked about "Named based recording" I just wanted to comment...

    Now instead of taping what I want one at a time I now have 10 zillion episodes of programs I do not want! Sure I can set it to only tape new shows but if you are like me and watch mostly repeats this name based stuff is silly.

    I now spend far more time erasing unwanted episodes than I ever did picking what I wanted to tape for the week. NBR is great for new shows but near useless for repeats. If you only watch new network shows then NBR is a godsend. If you want to watch non-firstrun shows that you may not have seen then NBR is not so neat :)

    Sometimes the K.I.S.S. method is the best and my 508 was a K.I.S.S. machine in it's glory. My wife could work it! Now I have a few extra steps when I simply want to tape a show from the menu.

    Mind you I love the 622 and think it's a great machine but aside from this name based stuff the DVR portion is near identical IMHO.

    I have seen all the wonderfull TIVO features but I equate TIVO to Microsoft Office. All many people want to do is to pick and record shows from the menu. I don't want to pay for all sorts of features I will not use ala Office when all I need is to type a paper.

    So some people bash Dish because their DVR's do not have a zillion features but to most people they do 100% what they need in a simple and easy way.

    -JB
     
  5. jrb531

    jrb531 Icon

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    May 28, 2004
    And the difference is?

    Kind of like saying that "my" PVR device is only for taping sitcoms and yours is for taping dramas.

    They both do the very same thing! While instant replay may not be as long as taping an entire show it's the same identical principle. Last time I checked... a sporting even was "live TV" *smiles*

    -JB
     
  6. jrb531

    jrb531 Icon

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    May 28, 2004
    Hmmm funny that I heard him specifically claim that he helped create the internet. I guess I heard him wrong ROTFL. Trying to think of the quote but he specifically said that he was a part of the organization that created the internet - not Arcnet but the internet.

    Now how many hundreds of thousands of people were on that committee? Did they all create the internet too? *smiles*

    -JB
     
  7. Greg Bimson

    Greg Bimson Hall Of Fame

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    May 5, 2003
    Because the patent covers the ability to record a live tv buffer and be able to rewind, fast forward, and pause this buffer, while recording another. Or even just being able to record a program while watching another pre-recorded program. Just because something may be the identical principle does not mean it is the identical process. And processes can be patented. Otherwise, the telephone would have never been patented as it was simply an extension of the telegraph.
     
  8. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Apr 17, 2003
    Michiana
    John,

    When posting corrections it is best to actually post a correction, not some other text.
    http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=459703#post459703

    Under heavy fire he did eventually correct himself, but those were the words he used to start that argument over seven years ago.

    We now return you to bickering over Tivo and patent law.
     
  9. Kagato

    Kagato Godfather

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    Jul 1, 2002
    The judge is still considering the award. Because the Jury said it was willful, the damages can be doubled or trippled.

    Still up in the air, documents E* has been withholding from the court and Tivo. The release has been ordered several times by Fulsoms Texas court, and the US Appeals court.

    The thought is these documents talk about possible patent issues. Not only making it possible to have damages enhanced, but also tank the appeal. If they aren't released a number of "bad things"(TM) could happen to E*.
     
  10. Kagato

    Kagato Godfather

    414
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    Jul 1, 2002
    Interesting side note. Charlie Ergen was Al Gore's largest individual donner in the 2000 election cycle.
     
  11. Fifty Caliber

    Fifty Caliber Banned User

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    Jan 4, 2006
    Can we bicker about DVR fees as well?
     
  12. LtMunst

    LtMunst Hall Of Fame

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    Probably because Al Gore invented DBS. :sure:
     
  13. Geronimo

    Geronimo Native American Potentate DBSTalk Gold Club

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    Mar 23, 2002
    Actually the full sentence uttered by Gore was "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet." It was part of a larger discussion about how the government fostered the growth and expansion of the internet.


    Context matters. Personally I think he took too much credit. But at no point did he ever say he invented the internet---or anything else. But he was an outspoken advocate of it early on and his role in that regard has been cited by a number of people in the technical community----though none have ever said he "invented " the internet.
     
  14. Geronimo

    Geronimo Native American Potentate DBSTalk Gold Club

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    Mar 23, 2002

    Individual donations were capped at I believe $2,000. Are you talking about a corporate donation?


    That year Ergen himself gave $778,050 to various candidatesd and causes. 48% to each party or candistes thereof and 4 % to issue oriented groups.
     
  15. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    We now return you to bickering over Tivo and patent law.

    PLEASE - stop posting about other issues in this thread.
     
  16. UTFAN

    UTFAN Legend

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    Nov 11, 2005
    Does this make us the battling Bickersons?

    Hook'em ya'll and have a great weekend.
     
  17. harsh

    harsh Beware the Attack Basset

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    Jun 14, 2003
    Salem, OR
    What does "time shifting" have to do with "Time Warp"???

    The answer is very little. None of the network or local TV producers record the finished program on the same decks that are doing slow motion or instant replay. These units do not record while they are searching for or playing back "the big play". Uninterrupted recording is unique to DVRs.
     
  18. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Kittrell, NC
    It just starts to get a little silly some of the processes that are getting patents.

    The next thing you know we will find out that someone has a patent on making a bologna sandwich by putting the bread down, then bologna, then cheese, then mustard, then more bread... and we'll find out that we all owe someone money each time we make our own bologna sandwich and violate his patent!
     
  19. RoyD

    RoyD Cool Member

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    Jul 26, 2002
    I think Smucker’s has like 3 patents on peanut butter and jelly sandwich

    (a) providing a first slices of bread with an edge crust;

    (b) applying a layer of peanut butter onto said first slice in an area inside said crust and defining a substance free outer periphery of said first slice;

    (c) applying a layer of fruit spread over said peanut butter layer leaving a perimeter of uncovered peanut butter;

    (d) covering said layer of fruit spread by a second layer of peanut butter contacting said first layer of peanut butter to encapsulate said fruit spread;

    (e) applying a second slice of bread over said first slice of bread with an edge crust matching said the edge crust of said first slice;
     
  20. wje

    wje Godfather

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    Mar 8, 2006
    New England
    It's totally out of control. The gov. is finally starting to try to fix things, but I don't hold out a lot of hope. This has been going on for a looong time. The earliest really stupid patent grant I remember is one back in the 60's or so given to a company that patented displaying a cursor on a screen. (yes. really) The patent was upheld on appeal. This was a hardware patent, but it was so totally obvious that no engineer could understand why it was granted. (for the curious, they patented the idea of XORing the pixels under the cursor with 1, in order to create a reverse image at the cursor location).

    I consider the TiVo's patent to be equally obvious and just as absurd. A disk is a random-access device. Why wouldn't you use it that way?

    Part of the problem is that when a patent is challenged, the jury doesn't have the knowledge to understand what is obvious to somone familiar with the technology and what isn't. (that's supposedly one of the key requrements that has to be met to get a patent in the first place... it can't be trivial ,or obvious to someone in the field).
     
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