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True HD ?

Discussion in 'DISH™ High Definition Discussion' started by 356B, Jun 17, 2010.

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  1. 356B

    356B Icon

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    Oct 11, 2008
    Northern...
    I just had a Direct TV installer tell me that Direct offers the only "True HD". Dish he claimed is manipulated at the receiver and not true HD.
    This discussion came about at a rental property that is wired with undersized coax by modern standards, he claimed it would not transmit / work with Directs brand of HD. When I countered that my home had the same wire size and worked perfectly he countered with the true HD comment.
    I'm just wondering the relevancy of this... in how it relates to the real world ? I presume if you have a pre-wired home with so called undersized coax, Direct would not be an option for you? or would Direct TV attempt to sell a new coax wiring job to accommodate ?

    Seems to me Direct is manipulating more than a HD signal here.
    Any education on this would be greatly appreciated.
    Thank you,
    Chas.
     
  2. RasputinAXP

    RasputinAXP Kwisatz Haderach of Cordcuttery

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    I would be unsurprised at a contractor attempting to upsell you.

    That said, Dish and Direct both work over the same type of coax. It's not like the pixels get stuck in there on the way down from the satellite. *sigh*
     
  3. l8er

    l8er Icon

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    Either satellite provider probably specifies at least RG6 coax. RG59, commonly used for OTA antenna installations is insufficient for the higher frequencies used in satellite systems. There is no coax that would work for one satellite provider and not the other (HD or otherwise - since between the dish and receiver really has nothing to with the signal being HD or not).
     
  4. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    If it is older coax (RG-59) it should work with an older dish (legacy) system. But BOTH DirecTV and DISH specify the same high quality coax standards for their modern installs.
     
  5. 356B

    356B Icon

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    Oct 11, 2008
    Northern...
    The Direct TV guy's story was their signal from the satellite is HD and Dish's is not. Is that true?
    Seems to me either this guy is wrong? or trying to manipulate something ?
    Thanks,
    Chas.
     
  6. scooper

    scooper Hall Of Fame

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    He's trying to manipulate something alright - YOU. Into changing to DirectTv
     
  7. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Does the installer also sell DISH? If not it seems pretty obvious that he was trying to manipulate you with stories about how the system that provides him money is better.

    There are a lot of derogatory messages coming from DirecTV fans about DISH's HD offerings.
     
  8. 356B

    356B Icon

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    Oct 11, 2008
    Northern...
    I assumed he was blowing smoke, what bothered me was he total distain for Dish TV and his smug attitude. He was in a Direct truck, local I think.
    Thanks,
    Chas.
     
  9. erosroadie

    erosroadie Godfather

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    Jan 9, 2007
    Or, he was supporting the position of several posters here that Dish's HD is really "HD-Lite" (fewer overall pixels) compared to DirecTV's...
    :read:
     
  10. Bigg

    Bigg Godfather

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    Feb 26, 2010
    In the HD forum, I have been posting quite a bit about how DISH doesn't have HD. Their flavor of "HD" is very good, but it is isn't HD, since it's transmitted at 1440x1080i, while HD is 1920x1080i. That being said, the chance of you being able to tell the difference is probably pretty low unless you have the biggest plasma you can buy and really good eyes.

    That has nothing to do with the cabling in your house. DirecTV's SWiM (Single Wire Multiswitch) technology uses the lowest frequencies of all of the satellite systems, and it theoretically requires RG-6. There are known cases of it being run on RG-59, but it is not supported that way by DirecTV, nor will they install it that way, as RG-59 has heavy signal drop-off above 1ghz (the top end of the most built-out HFC (cable) plants). I think it's actual frequency use is something like 900-1800mhz, but I'm not sure. Someone please correct those numbers.

    DirecTV's older multiswitched technology, which is what most customers have, but is not installed for new installs AFAIK, uses signals up to either 2200 or 2400mhz, not sure which.

    DISH's DISHPro technology goes up to 2300mhz.

    Good quality quad shielded cable today is sweep tested to 3000mhz, well above what any satellite system uses.

    What's more debatable is whether 1000mhz "CATV" RG-6 will work with DISH or DirecTV, since it is RG-6, even though it's not rated to a high enough frequency. I don't know if DISH or DirecTV will allow an install on this stuff, I would think so, since it is RG-6, but that's only a conjecture.

    Short of the story, the installer's technically correct, but practically speaking, full of ****. If you have RG-59 now, either system will need new cabling.

    Cable also offers a true HD signal, but if you want to be really picky, Fios is the only carrier that passes the stream through without re-compressing as long as you live in one of the little tiny Fios islands around the country or in Massachusetts. Fios is the best way to get HD in the US, it's just not widely available. Technically speaking, however, HD is defined by the resolution, but not by the amount of compression, as long as it leaves the original pixel count intact.
     
  11. pstr8ahead

    pstr8ahead AllStar

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    DirecTV's SWM: 2.3 -1790 MHz
    Non SWM HD: 250 - 2150 MHz
     
  12. 356B

    356B Icon

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    Oct 11, 2008
    Northern...
    Thank you all for your comments and information. I am not considering a move to DirecTV personally, I like what I have and that is what I told the installer.
    I was concerned about his remarks overheard by the new renter, but they are not interested in HD so it's mute. I am concerned about future renters and satisfying their needs where possible.
    The installer also claimed DirecTV has four 3D channels..........?
    Thanks,
    Chas.
     
  13. BattleZone

    BattleZone Hall Of Fame

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    And for Dish:

    Legacy: 950-1450 MHz (just like a DirecTV legacy system)

    DishPro/DishProPlus: 950-2150 Mhz


    It is true that Dish lowers the resolution of their 1080 content to 1440x1080, vs the standard of 1920x1080. Both carriers also have channels that only broadcast (on all systems) at 1280x720. All of these are technically HD resolutions.

    Picture quality with HDTV has MANY factors, and resolution is only one of them. It's a complicated question with complicated answers.

    The bottom line is:

    RG59 (the older, thinner coax cable) is not supported for carrying satellite signals by any satellite company, though there are situations where it will work. Techs are required to use RG6 exclusively if they are doing residential work directly for the company.
     
  14. JWKessler

    JWKessler Legend

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    Time to put on your boots cause the bulls*** is getting pretty deep.
     
  15. Bigg

    Bigg Godfather

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    That's not possible, because either can be diplexed with OTA, which carves out something like 70-650mhz, and SWiM has to handle DECA.

    It's true that there are a lot of factors affecting HD quality.

    1440x1080i, however is not HD. It's HD-Lite. HD-Lite is HD-Like, but it's not HD.
     
  16. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Please see the other thread for a better discussion of DISH's HD.
     
  17. BattleZone

    BattleZone Hall Of Fame

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    Note that he didn't say these were continuous. SWM uses a control frequency around 2.3 MHz, but has nothing between 5-850 MHz, which is why OTA (or DECA, but not both) can be diplexed into the line.

    Non-SWM HD is continuous between 250-2150 MHz (well, there are 200 MHz gaps between the 3 bands), so OTA can generally NOT be diplexed in. Some folks have used a work-around where the BBCs are relocated to the switch, which removes the 250-750 MHz band from the cable between the BBC and the receiver, but this has never been a supported configuration, and isn't possible if you're using an H23 or HR23, which use wideband tuners instead of BBCs.
     
  18. scooper

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    Then, by your standards - neither is 1280x720p60. Would you like to express your opinion to the FOX and ABC networks ?
     
  19. GrumpyBear

    GrumpyBear Hall Of Fame

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    Thats what some many of the "complainers" about Dish's signal, forget.
    All those stations that don't even OFFER thier signal in 1080. All those football games, are in 720p, not 1080i or 1080p(1080p issomething no broadcaster does).
    Directs' 1920x1080 is theoretically, better. Problem is to actually see the difference with the naked eye, takes something in the 80" TV range.
    You need something that is actually filmed at 1920x1080, and not captured as 1440x1080HD, to see any difference smaller than that.

    1440x1080 is the definition of consumer HD signal. 1440x1080 is good enough for HDNET, National Geographics, The Discover Network, its what they film in. Lets not forget how many sports events are actully captured at 1280x720. One day when all the HD video equipment is updated and those sports, nature and destination shows are captured in 1920x1080, this will be an issue. Right now... its all fluff
     
  20. phrelin

    phrelin Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Club

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    Northern...
    I don't know why we have two threads going at the same time over this complicated issue. But IMHO the argument is irrelevant without discussing the context - what the viewer "sees" on the screen which is the brain's interpretation of colors and "brightness/contrast."

    Not only can you wander down the aisle of an electronics store and see the differences between the displayed image from the same BD from the same BD player on different TVs, but people respond differently to what their brain "sees."

    Frankly, I don't like most "live action" TV series and movies shot with HD video cameras and retained in that format for distribution to viewers, even more particularly if it is displayed on a high contrast display that tends to towards higher color saturation. Yeah, the credits are easy to read. Big deal.

    To me this is an area where art meets science meets my brain. To start off with, I'm put off by HD displaying the pores in the skin of most actors. In my brain, fuzzy isn't inherently bad here.

    Bigg's brain apparently must have the crispest, most well-defined, ideal picture. That ideal leaves only a lossless-compressed 1080p digital stream coming straight from the video camera which isn't available. If it were, it couldn't be displayed on my 42" 720p Pany plasma and if I had a display that could display it, my brain probably wouldn't "like" it because it seems to force me to "see" things that I wouldn't "see" in person and which I find distasteful in the art.

    Or, to simplify, this whole thing about picture quality is a matter of opinion, not some universal truth.
     

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