1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

VA Speeding ticket "scam"

Discussion in 'The OT' started by Herdfan, Sep 22, 2011.

  1. TBlazer07

    TBlazer07 Grumpy Grampy

    4,785
    5
    Feb 5, 2009
    We just started getting those f'in cameras here in NJ. Our town (it was in the paper) made more than $500,000 off them in the first year or maybe even 6 months vs the previous same period, don't remember how long it was.

    A chunk of that goes to the company who installs them and sends out the tickets. Wonder how many rear-enders they cause when the light turns yellow. It's made me paranoid because I got a "test" ticket when they first installed them and in 47 years of having a driving license have never got a ticket.
     
  2. djlong

    djlong Hall Of Fame

    4,343
    57
    Jul 8, 2002
    New Hampshire
    Rich: The fastest I ever went in a car, on a straight and deserted interstate, was 125mph for a few seconds. I'm almost 50 and let's say that the 125mph incident was DECADES ago.

    Stewart: The *rate* doesn't go up. The rate is fatalaties per million vehicle miles travelled. The percentage of good to bad drivers should stay about the same in the general population. What CAN go up is the NUMBER of fatalaties with more drivers on the road and more miles travelled.
     
  3. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

    26,078
    461
    Feb 22, 2007
    Piscataway, NJ
    Back in the late '60s, I had a '60 T-Bird convertible. The speedometer went to 145. Rt. 287 was just nearing completion and there was virtually no traffic or cops on it. Just me and a Porsche, most nights. Never could beat that damn thing, but I did peg my speedometer many times trying. Really made me wonder how fast a Porsche can go. Even pegged, the T-Bird felt like it was picking up speed for a short while. Thought that was the fastest car I'd ever own, but I think my Caddie would beat it. I know the Caddies quicker off the line.

    Miracle we never got caught. Never met the guy in the Porsche. Mystery man. Good times.

    Rich
     
  4. BattleScott

    BattleScott Hall Of Fame

    2,353
    7
    Aug 28, 2006
    Speed is really irrelavant, it is a "difference" in speed that causes most issues. It's simple logic really, the higher the speed limit, the more drivers there are that are "satisfied" staying closer to the speed limit.
    I drive quite a bit in other states including several that have 70 MPH zones like SC, NC, WV. In those areas, driving is far easier and relaxed because a high percentage of the traffic is within a few MPH of the limit. This limits the need for lane changing and other manuevers. It's when you get into the lower speed areas, traffic becomes much harder to navigate because the percentage of drivers exceeding the limit by a large margin increases. In racing (like at Daytona), they call this the "closure rate" and it's the dangerous situation created by two vehicles moving at disparate speeds.
    Until recently, Ohio had an absolutely murderous policy of split speed limits where vehicles under a certain weight were permitted to go 65 while heavier vehicles had to observe the 55 MPH limit. Driving in Ohio was a constant freight train of cars backed up waiting for 1 semi to pass another then all swerving in and out of lanes after passing them. Traffic congestion on the open freeways since the change to all 65 in those areas has been noticably better in the places I travel.
     
  5. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    21,575
    373
    Jan 7, 2005
    Kittrell, NC
    Isn't that a bit like saying "it isn't the fall that kills you, but the sudden stop at the end" ?

    Obviously... I could travel at the speed of light safely as long as I don't run into anything... but the faster I'm going, the more damaging the impact IF I do crash and the less likely I will have enough time to adjust/react to adverse conditions.

    You've never heard the phrase "give an inch, they'll take a mile" ?

    Every time the speed limit is raised, people adjust their driving to <+9 mph over that new limit. I see it all the time on the road and hear it all the time in discussions... When the limit on a given road was 60, people go 69.. when it is raised to 70, people go up to 79...

    I doubt there is data to support your concept of higher speed limits = people being more "satisfied"...

    On an extreme note... maybe they should also raise the limit on the number of people we can beat up or put in the hospital? I mean, if we had say a 3-person limit per day... that would make people that like to beat people up more satisfied to "limit" themselves to just those 3 beatings, right? :D

    I don't understand why people just can't obey the law and drive under the speed limit. That would solve all the problems of speeding... and lower speed limits would mean less difference in speed for those driving slower.

    I've always lived by the mantra that I am never in so much of a hurry that I can't drive the speed limit and get there in time... I can always leave early if that is a concern.

    I make allowances for people on the way to a hospital or police chasing a dangerous suspect where time is of the essence... but no regular person on a regular day should ever need to drive anywhere near the speeds they seem to want to go.
     
  6. SamC

    SamC Hall Of Fame

    2,052
    24
    Jan 20, 2003
    Again, incorrect. The MUTCD, written by engineers, not politicians or do-gooders who just "know" things without proof, teaches us that traffic flow, particularly on rural fully-access controled highways (such as the interstate in question by the OP) is self-regulating.
     
  7. runner861

    runner861 Icon

    859
    0
    Mar 20, 2010
    Pleading a speeding ticket down to an equipment violation does sound like a scam to make money for the court. The state is ticketing people for speeding, but then not prosecuting them for that offense. They are pleading them not to a lesser included offense, but to a completely unrelated civil offense for the purpose of collecting money. If the person is speeding, and is ticketed for speeding, then he should be held to answer for speeding. Public safety demands it. An equipment violation is a civil matter that results in a payment to the court, but no point on the driving record. Thus, this person is not identified for what he did.

    I know, I will hear from people that it is done all the time, but that doesn't make it right. What would be more appropriate is to allow the person to take advantage of a deferred entry of judgment/diversion program, also known as traffic school. The person pays the fine, and if he/she has not attended traffic school in the last 18 months or so, he/she can attend traffic school and the ticket does not go on his/her record. That would be a legitimate way to save the person from the points on the driving record, yet still address the public safety/speeding issue. And the court would receive the appropriate fine.

    To me it does sound like a scam between the courts/prosecution and the law firms and the highway patrol.
     
  8. BattleScott

    BattleScott Hall Of Fame

    2,353
    7
    Aug 28, 2006
    This is the same argument the Insurance industry and the state police agancies tried to make when the natilonal limit was first raised, and proved to completely false. They also predicted doom and gloom and a catastrophic increase in accidents and fatalities, which also proved to not only be false, but both figures actually went down after the limits were raised.

    The data is in my everyday driving experience, I don't need anything else. The majority of the drivers on the road are not comfortable driving at 80+ mph regardless of the speed limit. In 55 zones, if you are going 60 you will get passed on both sides continuosly like your standing still. In 65 zones, if you are going 70, you will get passed about as much as you have to pass others. In 70 zones, the majority of the traffic will be going at nearly the same speed between 70 and 75 mph, with the ocassonal leadfoot going by at 80+. I've even driven on stretches of highway in Texas where it's 75 MPH and the traffic flow is almost uniform for mile after mile.

    And no, it's not anything at all like saying it's the sudden stop that kills you. When all the traffic is moving at the same pace, regardless of the actual speed, there are simply far fewer opportunities for incidents. Two cars going the same direction at 100 MPH will never have the opportunity to hit each other. Two cars going the same direction, one at 55 and one at 65 have a possibility of creating a serious incident.

    Again, actual speed is irrelevant. Even if the fastest driver in traffic is going the speed limit, drivers going well below the limit would cause the same problems. Having to manuever through traffic is the most dangerous part of driving. Finding the ideal speed where the majority of drivers feel comfortable driving is the key, That's why the statistcis show what they do, increasing the speed limits acutally drops the # of incidents.
     
  9. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    21,575
    373
    Jan 7, 2005
    Kittrell, NC
    So... then why even have a speed limit? IF the data proves higher limits mean safety, then wouldn't no limit or at least say raising it to 100 mph be even safer?

    I don't think anyone really believes that. In fact, the only people I see who argue that driving faster is "safer" are people who like to drive fast... kind of like how smokers will say it isn't hurting them... and drug users deny adverse effects... and alcoholics deny they drink too much.

    I've never heard someone who drives at or below the speed limits say that faster = safer.

    As I've said... the speed itself isn't the problem... The problem is that the faster you are going the less time you have to react to a problem.

    Say that 70mph car in front of you has a blowout and you are behind him going 70 mph... you have far less time to react and avoid hitting him as he suddenly slows than you would if you were going 50 mph.

    Again... faster doesn't necessarily mean unsafe... it just means more potential for greater problems when things go wrong. You can't argue with that.
     
  10. Davenlr

    Davenlr Geek til I die

    9,136
    27
    Sep 16, 2006
    States and cities need to use some common sense too...

    There is a stretch of interstate coming into my town. Plenty of room, concrete barriers in the middle, three lanes each way... Speed limit is 60. Everyone goes 70. Further up that same interstate is a small town, by then the freeway is two lanes, with really short offramps. Speed limit is 65. Most drivers dont go over 60.

    People that drive on these roads daily, know what is safe. If the government would use some common sense, they would simply run a radar logging for a month, determine the average speed traveled on that stretch, and set the speed limit accordingly.

    In the example above, the speed limit needs to be 65-70 on the new stretch, and 60 on the two lane stretch through the suburb.

    Our state also has a stupid mix speed limit on the open interstates...Trucks 65, cars 70. The cops watch the trucks like hawks. Tickets for 67. Cars they let go 75-77. Now imagine around the busy urban approaches with cars going (or trying to go) 77, running up on trucks going 65. Then there is that one truck going 66 that spends 3 miles trying to pass the one going 65. Cars stack up like a parking lot behind him, often 3 feet or less from each other (cant let another car from the right lane have room to pull in front of you, ya know). Imagine 30 cars going 66 mpg at 3' intervals... Then when the truck pulls back to the right, its a mad dash for the cars to see who can get out in front first, before they run up on the next truck. Totally Stupid.
     
  11. SamC

    SamC Hall Of Fame

    2,052
    24
    Jan 20, 2003
    This is the point that the wise point out that that is the situation in rural parts of Germany, where traffic mortality and morbidity is far lower than in the USA.

    Science, as explained in the MUTCD, teaches us what the SL should be. When, IMHO for reasons of greed, politicians deviate from that and make laws that make no sense, it invites, in fact wants, people to violate them. It, like Carroll County Virginia did the OP, treats a motorist driving safely and in the flow of traffic as a resouce to be, more or less, randomly taxed. The law, be it the SL or the tax code or the health code or any law, should never be a thing that the vast majority of people understand makes no sense, as the NMSL did not, and which most people violate and upon which a low level govenment employee is empowered to enforce at his whim.

    Remember, sometimes its not a random tax. Dr. King's Letter From A Birmingham Jail was written because the writter was undeniabably guilty, as were 95% of motorists of that era, of violating a traffic law. The police should NEVER have the power that a law that anyone with sense violates gives them.

    Do me a favor. Pick any large city and drive through it at the NMSL. Then drive across Nebraska at it. Then get back to me.
     
  12. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

    26,078
    461
    Feb 22, 2007
    Piscataway, NJ
    I think you've been right all along. A lot of people think that the interstates are engineered for speeding. Eisenhower wanted to put tanks and other armed services equipment on them, that's why the whole interstate network got started. The only interstate I've ever been on that seemed to engineered for speed is the PA Turnpike. Jersey's two main arteries, the Garden State Parkway and the Turnpike don't seem to be engineered for speed much over the max speeds posted. The interstates aren't as well engineered for speed as the Autobahn, as far as I know.

    Rich
     
  13. djlong

    djlong Hall Of Fame

    4,343
    57
    Jul 8, 2002
    New Hampshire
    1) I've driven in the NH/MA (Metro Boston) area since getting my license in 1978. People drove 75mph on the highways then and they do it now. No difference between the laws at 55, 65 and "state's discretion" (which, in MA, stayed at 65)

    2) Driving at slower speeds on highways that are long, straight and sparsely trafficked DOES induce drowsiness (in my driver's ed class they called it "highway hypnosis")
     
  14. djlong

    djlong Hall Of Fame

    4,343
    57
    Jul 8, 2002
    New Hampshire
    Umm.. That car is still going to be going 70mph after the blowout. He'll start reducing speed but it certainly won't be instantaneous. If I can see the blowout (and I've been behind an 18-wheeler with a blowout at 70mph) I DO have reaction time. In the example I mentioned, debris was what I needed to dodge. The laws of physics meant that the one small piece that I *couldn't* dodge (headed for my windshield) probably hit at a relative speed of 20-30mph.

    Tailgating is another matter entirely. Even at 40mph, you don't have reaction time if you're too close.
     
  15. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

    26,078
    461
    Feb 22, 2007
    Piscataway, NJ
    Another reason I don't like to drive with my wife. Far too much tailgating on our highways.

    Rich
     
  16. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

    26,078
    461
    Feb 22, 2007
    Piscataway, NJ
    Ever been driving a car that has a blow out? I have and I lost control of the car too quickly to do anything but watch. Our tires today are much better than they were 50 years ago, but it's still possible to have one blow out on you and you don't want to going 70MPH if it does.

    Rich
     
  17. BattleScott

    BattleScott Hall Of Fame

    2,353
    7
    Aug 28, 2006
    Even worse than just the revenue generation is the fact that they are willing to trade a few lives along the way to protect it. Even when study after study, report after report and statistic after statistic show the same results, they continue to fight it.

    Ohio is the poster child for this in my opinion. The Ohio Highway Patrol fought for years to keep the speed limit at 55, then finally agreed to an even more insane compromise of a split 65 cars/55 trucks law that was in effect for years. Even at the time it was adopted, it was already proven that the split limits were the WORST and MOST DANGEROUS way to go. But they had to protect at least some of the revenue they knew they would lose.

    Truck drivers were stuck in a no-win situation. Either spend your day navigating a continuous parade of cars swerving in and out around you or try and stay safe by going with the flow of traffic and pay the man every time they got "trapped".
     
  18. runner861

    runner861 Icon

    859
    0
    Mar 20, 2010
    Someone should actually go to the court and see what is in the court file regarding this case. If the matter was pled to an equipment violation (which is a civil offense, not a lesser offense to speeding), then there should be a resolution in the file. In other words, there should be evidence that the equipment violation has been corrected or the vehicle has been junked. In fact, in the file there will be neither, since there was no equipment violation to begin with. Or there will be a forged document. Either way, this would be the real proof that this is a scam.
     
  19. TBoneit

    TBoneit Hall Of Fame

    2,294
    7
    Jul 27, 2006
    Sort of what I did with I78 before it connected further east, It was mainly just empty road. I had a Olds88 and I'd go out there and run out to near Phillipsburg with the speedometer pegged after work let out at 10PM. Speedo only went to 120 OTOH.

    Considering I was riding on Bias Ply tires maybe I was being stupid. It was years later that Radial Tires really caught on for everybody.

    Nowdays driving where I do i might get all the way up to a racing 35MPH.

    Last time I went faster was driving on I287 to Edison for our company Christmas party.
     
  20. JackDW001

    JackDW001 Cool Member

    19
    0
    Oct 2, 2009
    Yes the states sale DMV information. It is income to the state. In NC, it went so far that in additional to normal DL information, they were also selling the drivers pictures. Eventually there was enough outcry that they stopped selling the pictures.

    I own a couple older classic cars. Can you guess how classic car supply companies know what I have and where to send the catalogs?
     

Share This Page