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When the rape victim is a nude dancer

Discussion in 'The OT' started by News Junky, Apr 22, 2006.

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  1. the_bear

    the_bear Godfather

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    I had not thought about that factor, ... very scary.

    I was thinking more along the lines that the idea of an active father and new definition of “successful” created the concept of rape. If a caveman could defeat the other members of a clan, he was the biggest baddest caveman. Therefore, by caveman standards successful. There was no need to scratch his eyes out because woman would want to bread with him.

    Then sometime later, a hunting caveman gives his kids part of his kill. The first active father is born. These well fed kids are now healthier than their ancestors. Now we have a new measure of success not the best fighter, but rather the best hunter. When these old best fighters try to bread, the women try to scratch their eyes out because the definition of successful has changed. Now the concept of rape is born.
     
  2. Cholly

    Cholly Old Guys Rule! DBSTalk Club

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    Indian...
    A few thoughts:
    The young woman alleging the rape attacks is described as being an "exotic dancer". Although this term is generally applied to strippers, it doesn't necessarily mean she dances in the nude.
    Was she really drunk or was she under the influence of a "date rape" drug? Results of testing have not been revealed to the public.
    The Duke Lacrosse team has been involved in "scandalous" behaviour in the past. Now many of the current members have been charged with underage drinking, illegal drug use and public urination. And their lawyers are saying, "Boys will be boys".
     
  3. jonstad

    jonstad Hall Of Fame

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    I'd have to say the "concept of rape" has always been with us and probably exists in the animal world today, even among our primate cousins. Any female that wanders off or becomes separated from her group is vulnerable to rape and even kidnap if chanced upon by a male or males of another group. Any human female subjected to such an event and escapes back to her own group may not be anxious to relate the experience to here own group for fear of punishment for wandering off, or that they had sought out the encounter, or that they had not fought off the attackers hard enough.

    There are societies today that punish females for any pregnancy whether by rape or other means. And even in our own society there are rape stigmas still attached. Unless they are appropriately battered and bloody, the suspicion is always there that victims didn't fight off their attackers "hard enough". And even husbands or boyfriends, parents and families may decide they are now "dirtied" or "sullied" because of their involuntary experience. And of course the notion still exists they were "asking for it".:nono2:
     
  4. News Junky

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    Good point. Laverne also suggested none of us knows what abuse women who end up in a certain less than honorable lifestyles endured that led them to that lifestyle.

    Thanks for your comments. I've modified my outlook to a degree.
     
  5. News Junky

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    Last I heard, men and women are pretty much equally able to get and transmit most diseases.

    There is a PC type atmosphere in the culture that wishes to promote the notion that women are equal. I agree that women should be treated with equality. However, some, and I think you did so here, confuse the concept of being equal with the concept of being identical. This often is seen in other areas as well but I thought I would point this one out.

    from http://www.bcm.edu/crowd/?pmid=1471

    "...Women account for about half of all sexually transmitted infections that occur each year, and they suffer more frequent and severe long-term consequences than men. Most STDs are more easily transmitted to women than to men. Women are twice as likely as men to get gonorrhea, hepatitis B, and HIV (AIDS). While many people associate getting an STD with being young, postmenopausal women with low estrogen levels are actually at greater risk of these infections invading easily torn vaginal tissue...."
     
  6. GeorgeLV

    GeorgeLV Godfather

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  7. jonstad

    jonstad Hall Of Fame

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    :scratch:
    OK, I'll bite. What part of women being more susceptible to certain ailments, particularly STDs etc., make they "less equal"?

    Of course they are not "identical". And we can thank our lucky stars for that!:yesman: But I fail to see your point or logic here.

    You based this thread on the premise "When the rape victim is a nude dancer". Implying strongly that they(nude dancers, etc.) are deserving of less protection under the law. That because they lead what you consider to be a more promiscuous(sinful?) lifestyle, their attackers should be treated with more leniency for not understanding the meaning of the word "no"!

    Now, nude dancers and virgins waiting for the scantity of marriage are equally(identically?) safe with me. Nothing makes me limper then knowing a woman doesn't want to have sex with me.:( However, nude dancers and virgins have one thing in common. And that is the right to refuse to have sex with me or anyone else. That they shake their naked booty in my face for a five dollar tip or wear a burka and chastity belt makes no difference if I corner them in a dark alley and force sex upon them, or even with several of my frat brothers in the back room of a "party house".
     
  8. AcuraCL

    AcuraCL Godfather

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    Wow. You mean a minority woman who claimed to be raped was ignored?

    I'm shocked, shocked.

    1 of 3 women in this country is sexually assaulted in her lifetime.

    Not that unusual ... especially considering her life circumstances ... that it could happen twice.

    Not saying it did, mind you. Personally, I'm likely to believe the accuser in these cases more than the accused.
     
  9. News Junky

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    I know 2 women who told me they've been raped on more than one occassion, each by 2 different men. All by aquaintance rapists. I know another woman who was raped twice by the same man, also an aquanitance. Her religious convictions led her to think she was required to "forgive" him. She never called police. He forced his way into her home a few days later and raped her again. I know another lady from an abusive home. Her father raped her almost everyday of her life growing up and offered her to friends as well. Tragically, I see nothing unbelivable about being raped on more than one occassion.
     
  10. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    The problem I have with your quoted text at the end...

    "Women are twice as likely as men to get..."

    Ok... so just who are the women getting these diseases from? Think about it.

    Now, I'm not saying men and women are completely equal in all things. I, for instance, can't get ovarian cancer being a man and not having ovaries... but aside from some obvious (and perhaps not so obvious) differences... some of the things you are associating with being more "dangerous" for a woman just don't sit right with me logically.
     
  11. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I'm still trying to stay on the fence and wait until all this plays out.

    But I will say this... While there are a lot of rapes, and a lot of women who are raped by different men at different times in their lives...

    What must the odds be of a black woman being raped by 3 black men, then 10 years later being raped by 3 white men? Maybe in another 10 years it will be 3 hispanic men?

    I don't mean to be funny here, rape is NOT funny... but you gotta admit the irony here, and how unlucky a girl must she be. I sincerely would feel really bad for her if both of these events happened.
     
  12. GeorgeLV

    GeorgeLV Godfather

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    Notwithstanding the overbroad definition of sexual assault used to manufacture the 1 in 3 women statistic, I ask you what is the statistical probability of being gang raped and beaten by two different sets of three men?
     
  13. jonstad

    jonstad Hall Of Fame

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    Well, here's my problem George, I don't recall any definition being offered, overbroad or otherwise. But perhaps I missed something?:shrug:

    Maybe you could let us know what definition you refer to? And while you're at it, what it defines as sexual assault that is in fact not!:scratch: I guess what I'm looking for is YOUR definition of sexual assault.

    I know that's not easy. Now considering there are widely varying social norms, I'm willing to concede that sometimes what is perceived as an unwanted sexual advance or grope on one side has no equal intent on the other. I grew up an upper-midwestern Luteran ala Lake Wobegon and we rarely hugged and kissed our own family members. About as intimate as we got was to lean forward and grasp both hands of a widow at her husband's funeral. Any further contact or in a different circumstance would be met with shocked stares. Where I live now it's impolite not to peck the cheek of the opposite sex on introduction and even men will greet each other with hugs. So where I come from, almost any touching is "inappropriate touching". And even in my new environs, all this huggy touchy feely can be a little discomfiting.

    I know. Too much information!:p But I'm just trying to establish that we all have different interpretations in these matters.

    But that said, there must be a line between a platonic hug and cheek kiss and unwanted, let's say overzealous, contact. And also there must be somewhere when unwanted or bothersome contact begins to morph into "sexual assault". Where would YOU make that distinction?

    If whatever definition you think Acura used is "overbroad", then what definiton is not? If I press someone against a wall and grab her breasts, is that sexual assault? Do I have to rip her clothes? If I forcefully try to stop her if she attempts to leave, is that the difference between unwanted sexual contact and assault? Or if none of the above qualifies, at what point IS it sexual assault?

    That's what I want to know. What definition do you consider not "overbroad"?
     
  14. News Junky

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    I think your answer can be found in the rate of promoscuity of men vs. women. Men can and do carry stds just like women however if men have more sexual partners then 1 man can infect 2 women.

    I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. Thankfully, just because someone becomes intimate with an std carrier, they don't always become infected themselves. However, a woman is MORE likely to get infected by a man than a man getting infected by a woman. The statistics don't lie.

    PS. Sorry. I plan to answer your previous question but its gonna take a little more thought that unsual and stuff has been comming up. I typically hang out here between other things.
     
  15. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    But you've actually proved my point to some degree with your answer if you think about it... The "stud" male who has an STD can infect several women... so it is entirely possible that a few infected "stud" males could skew some statistical samplings towards the appearance of women appearing to be more likely to be infected.

    The stigma in our society of women being whores vs men being studs actually curbs somewhat the reverse situation where 1 infected woman sleeps her way around to infect a bunch of men.

    There's that old saying/cliche... There's lies, damn lies, and statistics! You can quote a sampling that can almost prove anything you want to prove, so statistics are often unreliable and biased towards whomever took the survey.

    Also worth noting, that even in anonymous surveys... A "whore" is much less likely to admit it on a survey than a "stud" because of the unfair social stigma... A man is much more likely to brag about his sleeping around than a woman would, if asked.
     
  16. GeorgeLV

    GeorgeLV Godfather

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    AcuraCL has the burden to demonstrate that the definition of sexual assault used to calculated the unsourced statistic he offered is reasonable.

    AcuraCL claimed that 1 in 3 woman (that's at least 50,000,000 Americans) are sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. Let's posit that sexual assualt is about the worst crime that can be done short of murder. If 1 in 3 women in America truly are sexually assualted then our society must be entirely out of control. Alternativey, if we posit that our society is not is disarray, then presented with such a statistic we can implicity assume it is not valid. Given the more optimistic alternative, one can conclude that the data and/or the definition used to calculatue the statistic must be in error.
     
  17. News Junky

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    If I gave you that impression, I apologize. What I intended to communicate is as far as getting personal sympathy from me, the prostitute and the stripper gets less (at face value. After some enlightenment I’m starting to feel for ladies who end up in the sex trade in the first place). After the suggestion was made by another poster I agreed I would not be opposed to more severe penalties for certain rapes. BTW: There already are. Acquaintance/date rapists are not treated as harshly by the courts as rapists who attack a lady who he dose not know. They do go to jail however and do not get slaps onthe wrists. The strager rapists get longer terms in jail. I am not opposed to putting a rapist in jail for a much longer time than if the victim didn't just gave the rapist a lap dance wearing nothing but a smile on her face. That’s not to say shorten the lap dance customer’s sentence but rather increase the home invader’s sentence.

    Again, I like you understand that no means no. However, I know several ladies who were raped and did nothing to entice their attackers. Unlike a stripper, they did not shed their clothing and spread eagle in the faces of their rapists. Because my friends did not tempt, entice, arouse or stimulate in any way men who decided to force themselves on them I mentally place them in a higher category than a lady who does deliberately sexually arouses the man who ultimately rapes her. I know nude dancing is a legal profession. I know the customer realizes its not going to result in intercourse although he will wish it would. I know she didn’t ask for it. I think he should go to jail if he rapes a stripper. All I’m saying is a lady who gets naked and gyrates the private parts of her body in the face of a man and she gets raped will have less sympathy from me that a lady who carries herself modestly and did not in any way arouse the man who raped her.
     
  18. jonstad

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    May we agree there are "degrees" of sexual assault? Simple "assault" ranges from an impulsive push or slap or shove(ask Cynthia McKinney) to a full on pummelling with broken bones and/or noses.

    Likewise, "sexual assault" is not confined to rape at knifepoint. It may be merely a situation where a woman felt they were being coerced into sexual acts they did not choose to indulge in. Even if in the end, they were not forced to perform them.

    So, I don't consider the figure of 1 in 3, or 50,000,000 to be unrealistic at all. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised with a higher figure of women who sometime in their life felt pressured into sexual situations against their will.

    But it all comes down to your definition of sexual assault and that's why I asked you yours! Do clothes have to be torn? Do genitals have to be exposed? When does an unwanted advance turn to sexual assault?

    BTW, Acura is a SHE not a HE and therefore can probably speak to this from a different perspective. I don't pretend to speak for her or know her experiences. But I assume at some time in her life, she might have been in a situation where her choices had been placed out of her control, or at least where someone had attempted to replace her control with their own.

    The question is, does such a situation constitute "sexual assault"? As a mental patient acquaintance of mine used to say- "It's all in your head. And that's the problem!"

    What's in your head?
     
  19. News Junky

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    Very observant! I think due to the differences in anotomy a lady is in fact more suspectable to contracting a contagious std. Any bacteria, virus or fungus that a woman would be exposed to would be internally exposured. In the case of a man, it would be topical exposure. I'm not a doctor but it only makes sense. I'll ask my doc the next time I see him...with a very detailed explaination. HDMe wants to know :).
     
  20. GeorgeLV

    GeorgeLV Godfather

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    I defer to the rule of law. Crime statistics need a rigid foundation. If an individual or special interest is incorporating their own value judgments in a statistic than it must be disclosed for rational discourse to take place. For instance a pro-life group could, quite consistent with the own biases, claim that 1 in 5 Americans are murdered because they count abortions with murders.
     
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