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Why rigid rules at schools don't work

Discussion in 'The OT' started by phrelin, Apr 30, 2013.

  1. dpeters11

    dpeters11 Hall Of Fame

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    Students have been suspended in the past for giving their inhaler to another student who had an attack and left theirs at home. Another was suspended when his fell out of his pocket and it was found his parents hadn't registered it with the school.

    Or the senior class president that recently was suspended for comparing his schools team to the Wichita State football program, as they call it "Heights U", which he argues doesn't exist since they are not a University.
     
  2. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Probably time for my rant/reminder about rules and when you might need to break them.

    Rules are rules... but sometimes you might need to break them... BUT you should choose wisely and be ready to accept consequences of doing so.

    Your Tornado example is a BAD one. What are the kids instincts? What if his instincts are to run around wildly, leave the building and run around outside in an unsafe manner instead of seeking shelter in a fortified area OR a tornado shelter? Also, what if his instincts are safe for him BUT he endangers the adults who are responsible for him because he wanders off on his own and they have to go looking for him?

    Some rules are rules because they are time-proven to be mostly the right thing... Think seatbelts. In most accidents I think wearing a seatbelt prevents worse injury... but every now and then you hear of someone who was saved by not wearing a seatbelt and being thrown from their car and out of worse harm's way... but generally we still think seatbelts are the safer way to go.

    Your orange juice example... in order to save the life of that kid you might not have time to properly purchase that orange juice... so you might have to steal it... so eventually you have to answer to the police AND pay for that later... doing the right thing might mean you take a risk and answer to the consequences later.

    Worth noting, on your other thread examples... the marijuana thread was not a legal use of medical marijuana... it wasn't even a matter of whether it was or not, but it was ruled in court to be illegal use on top of everything else.

    I'm against zero tolerance most of the time myself... but I have less of a problem with zero tolerance for knives that have no place in school than some other things. I find the knife-in-school to be an odd place to draw a line and say "zero tolerance is bad"... when the alternative seems to be implied "let the kid have his knife"... when we all know that if anything bad happened, everyone would jump on the school for letting that kid have the knife.
     
  3. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    A simple reminder ... the court ruled that the employee's use of marijuana WAS NOT LEGAL.


    We (as a society) need to be careful writing rigid rules. There are some things that are overlooked when a rigid rule is formed. For example, the idea of allowing a drinking age escort in to a high school function was probably a problem in the past when the rule was written. Perhaps no one thought through what exceptions might be made (close relatives). And in this case when the rule was re-written the older person was still barred from participating in the event ... they were only permitted to escort on the red carpet. The rule change is too specific ... addressing this one person's desire to be escorted on the red carpet. Will they need to rewrite the rule again when the next prom attendee's dream is to dance with her too much older brother at the prom?
     
  4. BattleScott

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    I think the problem is not necessarily with the rules themselves, but the idea that they are 100% inflexible. In a case like the "Prom date", the principle should have the authority (and the common sense) to allow the brother to escort his sister as a trusted honor guard.

    In the case of the 5th grader, they should have simply taken the knife into "protective custody" and returned it to the parents after the trip.

    Unfortunately, more and more organizations are choosing (being forced) to abandon "rational" application of the rules in favor of the safer, more easily defensible "no thought" practices.

    At some point in the last several decades, it seems we have switched from asking "is that right or wrong?" to "is there a rule against that?".
     
  5. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    Well said!

    Rich
     
  6. Herdfan

    Herdfan Well-Known Member

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    While I think some of the zero tolerance policies are idiotic, having dealt with some teachers and adminstrators sometimes they are needed because some of these people are morons. In a school system the one thing that is needed is consistency between schools. You can't have one school doing things one way and another doing something completely differently, hence the policies.

    But with that said, I think the strict policies need to be in place at the school level, but the central office needs the ability to allow exceptions. This would be one of those cases.
     
  7. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Source? Or is this another strawman argument?

    A similar episode is one of the classic "zero-tolerance" stories ... a kid gave an aspirin to a friend at school and was expelled. Giving the aspirin was not a life saving action but it does fit in with rendering medical aid.

    If you can find a source where your hypothetical happened and a child was punished for cutting in line and perhaps even stealing an OJ for a student in need perhaps we can talk about reality?

    At least those three have a basis in fact.
     
  8. BattleScott

    BattleScott Hall Of Fame

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    I think you missed the entire context of the post.
     
  9. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Then your post was poorly written.

    There are some rules that no one complains about ... and some that seem to be so rigid that no one is allowed to complain. Bringing in straw man arguments about situations that have not occurred does not further the discussion.

    There are plenty of real examples available (for example, it was not at a school but the hotel that fired an employee for saving a life outside of their portion of the beach - a rigid rule broken)... there is no need to make up wild hypotheticals that cannot be backed up by a source.

    If you have sources for your stories please supply them.
     
  10. BattleScott

    BattleScott Hall Of Fame

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    You seem to be the only one who missed it, so I think it was more likely just poorly read.
     
  11. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    If you can't back up your posts I'll just move on to reasonable debate. :)
     
  12. dpeters11

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    Ok, old thread I know, but thought it would be better than a new one.

    A student is facing expulsion for taking a razor blade away from another student that apparently was in the process of cutting himself. No teachers were around, but she was suspended and recommended for expulsion when she reported the incident as taking the blade to throw it away violated the zero tolerance on weapons policy.

    Hopefully cooler heads will prevail at the hearing.

    http://gawker.com/sixth-grader-suspended-for-taking-self-harming-classmat-1547993490
     
  13. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    There has to be more to this story than just that.
     
  14. AntAltMike

    AntAltMike Hall Of Fame

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    Another internet crusade going wild. We went through something like this with the volleyball player/ designated driver thread here last year. We don't seem to have anything to go on for facts, other than what the suspended party gives us.
     
  15. longrider

    longrider Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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  16. dpeters11

    dpeters11 Hall Of Fame

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    It'll be interesting to see what's reported about the hearing.
     
  17. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    From one of the articles, this bit is why I feel like there is more to the story:

    "Last Thursday at Bayside Middle School, sixth grader Adrionna Harris came to the aide of a classmate who was cutting his arm. She faces expulsion for taking a razor from the student, throwing it away and convincing him what he was doing wasn’t right. She thought she was doing the right thing, so on Friday she told the school administration what happened."

    See the parts I highlighted...

    So... on Thursday she stops a kid from harming himself... and she was so sure she did the right thing that she waited until Friday to tell anyone about it?

    That confuses me. IF the situation played out as described, it seems like IF you found someone harming himself... and no one else was around... and you managed to stop him from hurting himself... you would have immediately told someone what just happened. Why wait until the next day?

    There's definitely more to the story.
     
  18. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    It seems the moral of the story is "don't tell"?
     
  19. dpeters11

    dpeters11 Hall Of Fame

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    Well, we still don't know the school's side, but the suspension has been lifted, and no expulsion. Whether it's due to the facts of the case or the publicity, we won't know.
     
  20. AntAltMike

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    Originally Posted elsewhere by AntAltMike

    Episode: Improbable Cause
    Deep Space 9
    Season 3, Episode #20
    Original air date: April 24, 1995


    Bashir: Do you know the story of the boy who cried wolf?

    Garak: No.

    Bashir: It's a children's story about a young shepherd boy who gets lonely while tending his flock. So he cries out to the villagers that a wolf is attacking the sheep. The people come running, but of course, there's no wolf. He claims that it's run away, and the villagers praise him for his vigilance.

    Garak: Clever lad! A charming story.

    Bashir: I'm not finished. The next day the boy does it again, and the next day, too. On the fourth day, a wolf really comes. The boy cries out at the top of his lungs, but the villagers ignore him... and the boy and his flock are gobbled up.

    Garak: That's a little graphic for children, don't you think?

    Bashir: But the point is that if you lie all the time, no one will believe you even if you're telling the truth.

    Garak: Are you sure that's the point, Doctor?

    Bashir: Of course, what else would it be?

    Garak: That you should never tell the same lie twice.

    # # # # #​
    This reported story might just be a doozie, with little semblance to reality.
     

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