1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Would President Bush go to war to stop Tehran from getting the bomb?

Discussion in 'The OT' started by tomcrown1, Apr 10, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. pjmrt

    pjmrt Hall Of Fame

    3,939
    0
    Jul 17, 2003
    And I think you are mixing your religeons. Catholics have priests, Baptists have pastors. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since the difference in title is subtle. Out of the thousands of Baptist pastors, I suppose there are some who succumb to sins like that - although I personnaly have only heard of one case in my lifetime of a pastor molesting kids - and even then I'm not a 100% sure it was the pastor or just one of the staff handling the children's ministry. Being a believer does not mean we are suddenly "made perfect" in this life, never to sin. And carrying a church title does not necessarily mean one is saved, a Christian. Church elders have come forward and be baptised because they realized they were "doing church" because that's what mom or dad did, followed in the ministry because that was what dad did, ... not because they ever really met the Savior, had a changed life, or was Called by God to the ministry. That too is probably rare, but it happens.

    There is no "the Bible". There are lots of Bibles...
    I have read the Bible, several times, studied the Bible, researched the Bible, ... There is a Bible! Other religeons have "holy scriptures", they are not the Bible. The Catholic faith included some books not accepted by the reformation. About a 100 years after Christ, Jewish rabbis decided to revise the content of what we would call the old testament scriptures, elliminating some books written around 100 years before Christ. The new testament is identical in protestant, catholic and orthodox. I believe some protestant Bibles continues to carry these extra books in a separate section up until a 100 years ago or so. We could argue their validity as well as the Catholic acceptance of church tradition and words of the Pope as canon. But that's not the point. All faiths use the same New Testament. All proclaim Jesus as THE WAY. What's you're point? Just because someone discovers some other text, does not make it relevalent. There is a lot of great fiction today, and nobody like a good sci fi story better than I. But I won't use it as a blueprint for my life. THE Bible, the Word of God, works, is accurate, is useful for teaching, rebuking, ... well you get the idea. 1 Timothy, look it up.
     
  2. pjmrt

    pjmrt Hall Of Fame

    3,939
    0
    Jul 17, 2003
    I just suggest you reread my post. What Would Jesus Do is paramount. Its the application of the Word of God to our lives that is worked out daily, and I don't always get it right. I said "one could make a case", not that I was firmly convinced Jesus would want us to invade a country under the circumstances we did in Iraq. If you recall, Jesus made a whip and drove money changers from the Temple courtyard. But I believe God is far more interested in how we live our lives and one-on-one relations. As to your comment: I face ALL situations from the point of view "What Would Jesus Do", not just the ones that don't require any real sacrifice or tough decisions, get real dude! I don't know of anyone who supports the invasion of Iraq who considers it an easy decision or without sacrifice. We all knew (apparently only you partison bush-wackers didn't) sacrifice was needed, that good men and women would die in the process (and some of them might be our own), that our economy would be taxed and so our pocketbook, ... sacrifice would be made, and we would make it because it was necessary.
     
  3. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    21,609
    380
    Jan 7, 2005
    Kittrell, NC
    I appreciate the honest response. Don't feel alone in that. I've found over the years that many people haven't even cracked it open yet claim to know exactly what it says inside. Being able to answer that question honestly actually puts you a few notches above most people I run into.

    If you can admit that there are parts you don't know, then you can also admit that sometimes there is more to know... and that translates into a willingness to listen and better understand, I hope.

    People that can't admit their own limitations tend to develop a sense of invincibility which can be dangerous. We see that in some of our politicians for instance who think they are above the rest of us.
     
  4. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    21,609
    380
    Jan 7, 2005
    Kittrell, NC
    Thank you for pointing that out. I actually noticed my error after posting, but felt it would be unfair to correct the error since it might appear I was being tricky or something... so I just left it alone. I have no idea why I didn't type Catholic as I mean to... sometimes my brain and my fingers become disconnected! :)

    My real point, which became obscured along the way, was merely to illustrate how there are a lot of people who talk about "the Bible" without even knowing what they are talking about. Folks that haven't read it at all, or have only skimmed parts of it, sometimes proclaim to be knowledgable without actually knowing what they are talking about.

    I wasn't planning on quizzing anyone to test knowledge. I'll take people's word for it if they say they have read it... but often just asking the question and seeing people squirm to evade answering demonstrates far more about their knowledge.
     
  5. jonstad

    jonstad Hall Of Fame

    6,002
    1
    Jun 27, 2002
    All this is predicated on predicting the future. Is your crystal ball or tea leaves reliable enough to go to war? We tried predicting the future in Iraq and were dead wrong at nearly every turn. I won't go into details, but surely you understand that?

    Here are our predictions for Iraq-

    A- Iran is in the process of developing nuclear weapons.

    Probability? Pretty high I'd say. Maybe 80-90%. Although, Iran denies it and AFAIK they have violated no international law or treaty. Everything they have done so far is consistent with "the peaceful use of nuclear power." They have not gotten to the point of overtly constructing a bomb. However, the high probability they will IS cause for concern. But is it cause to go to war? Now?

    B- If(some would say "when") Iran gets a bomb, they will immediately use it to attack Israel.

    Probability? That's a much tougher calculation. There is certainly no love lost between Iran and Israel. But we've had this type of situation before. The US and Soviet Union stood toe to toe for 40 years. You can include China in that equation too. We opposed India and Pakistan getting the bomb too because we thought it very likely they would use them against each other. Didn't happen and doesn't appear likely it will happen.

    For all the belligerence and posturing nuclear nations do, acquiring the bomb seems to be accompanied by a certain restraint. Perhaps once you develop and/or test one, you fully realize its awesome power. And most importantly you realize that awesome power can be used against yourself. So while there's a lot of shouting and kicking up dust, it usually turns into a Mexican standoff.

    So I would say the probability of Iran, without further provocation, actually using a nuke against Israel,(assuming they even get one) is very low. Probably no more than 20-25%, probably much less.

    And for this, we're willing to attack Iran? An attack that to be effective will almost necessarily require an invasion and occupation similar to our current adventure in Iraq. And make no mistake, Iran will be no less difficult than Iraq. Iran is a much larger country with a larger population. And they are actually a "nation" with pride and nationalism, unlike Iraq which is basically a assemblage of disparate ethnic groups cobbled together by colonial powers. Also, for whatever failings their current government has, they are not hated and feared anywhere near as much as Saddam's regime was in Iraq. An Iranian army probably WILL stand and fight. And while we would certainly defeat them, it will be much more costly. And Iranians will likely join the inevitable insugency in even greater numbers than what we are now facing in Iraq.

    For many of course, the above are not predictions. They are certainties! The question then is- How can you be so certain? The answer comes back that Iran is enriching uranium and their rhetoric towards Israel is very belligerent. Well I'm sorry. That's just not enough. Nations WITH nuclear weapons have faced off before, spouting rhetoric at least as belligerent as the exchange between Iran and Israel and no one has ever resorted to the use of their nukes.
     
  6. Bogy

    Bogy Hall Of Fame

    13,242
    1
    Mar 23, 2002
    Are you telling me I have the power to prevent others from using nuclear weapons? WHY DIDN'T ANYONE TELL ME THIS SOONER? :rolleyes:

    Or are you talking about our nation preventing one nation from nuking another nation? But do we have the power to do that? Can we act it complete confidence that if we nuke Iran, killing millions of people, we will be stopping something that is CERTAIN to happen? Even if we invade with conventional weapons, bringing about the deaths of tens or hundreds of thousands, can we be certain we are preventing something even worse from happening? Or would we be acting irrationally, based on fear of what we do not know. You have already said, "I think one could make a case that Jesus would not advocate military force to change a nation like Iraq. In fact I think Jesus would make the case that we should cast ALL our cares upon Him, and trust Him for our safety and security." But you are not willing to do what you believe Jesus would do, and what he has asked us to do. The tragedy is that this is why Islam despises the bulk of those who call themselves Christian, and our nation in particular. You, pjmrt, are among those who call this a Christian nation. We make that claim, but then, as you have done in this thread, say that our nation cannot base its action toward other countries on Christian principles. Christians say that they base their faith on Jesus, who brought a message of love and forgiveness, of forgiving the person who strikes your cheek, and then the president of that our nation, who proudly and often states that he is a Christian, threatens that we aren't going to wait to be struck on the cheek, much less turn that cheek, but we are going to act because we think our cheek MIGHT be struck. Forgive me, but I have often stated that I that many people who claim to be Christians in this country do NOT have a very good understanding of what that involves, and are primarily Christians when it suits them. The Muslims of the world get the same message. Even the mainline Muslims who DON'T want to see all the "infidels" destroyed, still perceive this inconsistent, hypocritical, message. The mainline Muslims who condemn the actions of the fundamentalists who twist the words of the Koran (they condemn them for the same reason, they are NOT being consistent with their faith, with what the Koran really teaches).

    The Koran in a number of places teaches that there are many "People of the Book", Jews and Christians, who are righteous. Who humbly serve God, doing good works and showing God's love. These are to be treated as fellow Believers. But it also says that a lot of Jews and Christians are NOT faithful to God. That in particular that many Christians do NOT live according to the Gospel God sent the Messiah Jesus to preach. Instead they oppress others and attack them when there is no good reason. Mohammad was speaking out of his experience with Christians, and unfortunately, in this respect, the Koran continues to be true. BTW pjmrt, have you read the Koran? I have not read the entire book, but I have read a great deal of it. In my opinion it is not any more violent, and perhaps less violent than the Old Testament and/or Revelations. It is less condemnatory of other faiths than either Judaism or Christianity. Unfortunately, many Christians know even less about what the Koran says than they know about what the Christian Gospel says.
     
  7. Opynion

    Opynion Godfather

    403
    0
    Mar 21, 2006
    Don't bet on it looser, I'm not interested in stopping such medical programs, just as I'm not a full time Wal-mart shopper either, and since I'm not perfect, I don't call myself a Christian just because I've read part of the Bible,
    you don't like my opinions
    and that's cool with me, :cool:
    but take a look at your stuff:

    Ah... your opinions or gull...
    first you said 90% and couldn't prove that, then you said 60-70%, couldn't prove that either, it's amazing how just 1% can make you whine. :rolleyes:
    :lol:
     
  8. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    21,609
    380
    Jan 7, 2005
    Kittrell, NC
    What you posted here is a very good point. Take the Cuban missile crisis for example... I believe we in the USA were directly threatened and the missiles were there... but we were able to avert a nuclear war in large part because the leaders of both nations knew that mutual annihilation was good for no one.

    The baby and the hot stove example is a good one as well from another thread... the baby doesn't know how hot the stove is, but mom says no... so baby sneaks and touches it and is burnt and hopefully learns not to do it again. Nations without nuclear weaponry probably don't fully understand just how powerful it is and just what it means to launch it against your enemy.

    The fact remains that only the USA has dropped nuclear weapons on another nation... and we did that at a time when we were the only ones with the capability to do so! Likely Germany would have done the same in WWII if they were the only ones had they got them first.

    The point being... it's an "easy" thing when you think you are undefeatable to launch these things with impunity... but when you know there are some pointing back at you, it makes you think before pressing the button.

    I expect countries like Iran will be less likely to launch them if they get them, once they have tested and fully appreciate just how easy it is to wipe a nation off the map... and in return be wiped out.

    Wars don't usually, historically, break out between two equally powerful countries... they usually break out when one thinks they are more powerful than the other. So one could argue that either no one should have nukes or we all should, to keep the playing field level and to keep one nation from taking advantage of a position of power and abusing it.
     
  9. Tom in TX

    Tom in TX Icon

    714
    0
    Jan 22, 2004
    A bet I'm not willing to make! Especially since they think they will be rewarded in heaven if they die, killing us!
    Tom in TX
     
  10. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    21,609
    380
    Jan 7, 2005
    Kittrell, NC
    Lest we forget that Christians also believe they will be rewarded when they die. Heaven is not a concept unique to one religion.

    I think that is being blown out of proportion anyway... Too often people are basing opinions on an entire people or nations by looking at what a handful of them are doing.

    Do you actually believe every single Arabic person or Muslim person is a terrorist?

    I think the evidence actually points against that... because if they all truly were terrorists and all believed going to heaven by killing us would be great... then the entire countries would just strap on bombs and have at it already.

    Clearly there are some cooler heads that don't believe in that... and they also have some corrupt leadership much as those of us in the "free" world have had at times.
     
  11. Bogy

    Bogy Hall Of Fame

    13,242
    1
    Mar 23, 2002
    OK, enough of the Muslims are willing to die 'cause they will get rewarded in paradise, and although you didn't mention it here, by getting 72 virgins. Prove it. Show me in the Koran where terrorists, or martyrs, will receive ANYTHING that any other Muslim will receive. Show me in the Koran where martyrs, or any other Muslim, will get 72 virgins. The truth is, you can't. I have read quite a bit of the Koran, and all the relevant passages, and it isn't in there. The closest you can find is that martyrs will die with the certainty they will go to paradise, but many mainline Muslims feel Muslim terrorists will be in for a surprise, because suicide is NOT condoned, and neither is killing women, children, and civilians. Only killing in order to protect others, or in direct retaliation for an attack is allowed, which does not include women and children. Yep, the big reward is that martyrs can be sure that God will forgive their sins and they will enter Paradise. Along with that, God will exalt them and hold them in high regard, and in just a couple of passages might be inferred that their accommodations will be slightly more plush than the run of the mill. The 72 virgin thing. NOT in the Koran. Yes, there are maidens promised in marriage, but in one passage the number given is TWO, and otherwise no specific number is given. The 72 thing comes from a Hadith, a collection of quotes supposedly from Mohammad, held in high regard by Muslims, but NOT the Koran. Muslim scholars claim there is a big difference from the Koran, in which the largely uneducated Mohamed received the message from God, and the Hadith, which was just Mohamed speaking.

    If you don't like the religion, or don't like Arabs, that is one thing, but at least get the facts straight. As HDMe has stated, it isn't like Christians don't think they are going to be rewarded in the next life. One of the big reasons the U.S. government spends the money to have chaplains in the field with our military is so that the men and women facing death will be ready to die, with the assurance they will be rewarded.
     
  12. Opynion

    Opynion Godfather

    403
    0
    Mar 21, 2006
    and the reward is great, 72 pusies, of course Bogy hasn't read the part where that offer is mentioned in the koran, and killing isn't a sin in the koran, that's why they want kill Jews and others, maybe I should become a religous follower of the koran, I suppose it's the same to kill arabs and still recieve the 72 virgins, just for being a koranist :cool: I'll join the koran later on and I'll do it
    for 72 reasons.
    - - - - - :rolleyes:
     
  13. AllieVi

    AllieVi Hall Of Fame

    1,530
    0
    Apr 10, 2002
    Some people may not believe this claim. Please dispel their suspicion by providing the reference.
     
  14. dodge boy

    dodge boy R.I.P. Chris Henry

    4,231
    0
    Mar 31, 2006
    It is a lot higher than 1% as I said 60% was in a report i read and on a news show (Democracy Now! said 62%) some time ago (last summer). And I am not a part time Wal-mart or Sam's club shopper...... I would not enter such establishments. :D
     
  15. Tom in TX

    Tom in TX Icon

    714
    0
    Jan 22, 2004
    Bogy, I made two statements. Please show me which facts I don't have straight. You went on to rant about 72 virgins, the Koran, etc. And then you accused me, falsely, about not having my facts straight?? I said they would be rewarded in heaven. During your rant you said they would have their sins forgiven in "Paradise", which is a reward in my view! So where's the facts I don't have straight?
    Unfounded accusations about me....another one of your statements, showing how you base all your decisions on WWJD? :lol:
    Tom in TX
     
  16. pjmrt

    pjmrt Hall Of Fame

    3,939
    0
    Jul 17, 2003
    Even if we leave out the racy detail and make allowances for metaphor, we're obliged to admit that Islamic heaven is a pretty rockin' place, with an emphasis on sensual pleasures. The provision of virgins in indeterminate quantities is alluded to at numerous points, and you know they're not just there to fluff the pillows.
    .....

    from a comment article, not a religeous authority to be sure
    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/011214.html


    The virgins are calling you," Mohamed Atta wrote reassuringly to his fellow hijackers just before 9/11.
    They apparently believe it says that.

    Now granted, you can argue that muslims have varying views on what the Koran actually says, and probably many do not believe it can be translated such. But given the huge crowds rioting because a foriegn paper prints a cartoon, the huge crowds in the streets cheering because a plane flies into the World Trade Center, .... it appears THEY in general believe it says that.
     
  17. Bogy

    Bogy Hall Of Fame

    13,242
    1
    Mar 23, 2002
    No, I have not read that part in the Koran. Would you please be so kind as to give me the chapter and verse as to where to find it?
     
  18. Bogy

    Bogy Hall Of Fame

    13,242
    1
    Mar 23, 2002
    Please note, I stated that you did not specifically mention 72 virgins. Your statement that they "will be rewarded in heaven" is not the same as being able to go to heaven, which is what I stated they would receive. In my opinion your statement infers a reward more than other in heaven get. If you really didn't mean that, I aplogize. However, your statement still seems to say that they will receive a greater reward than other Muslims who don't kill themselves.
     
  19. Bogy

    Bogy Hall Of Fame

    13,242
    1
    Mar 23, 2002
    "Large crowds" can be made to appear so by proper positioning of the camera. I remember the large crowds in Muslim cities following 9/11 mourning the loss of life and senseless destruction, and their support for the U.S. in a time of tragedy. They even supported our attack on Afghanistan, because the Koran supports striking back at an enemy that attacks you. We lost that support when we invaded a country that had not been involved and had not done anything to us.
     
  20. Opynion

    Opynion Godfather

    403
    0
    Mar 21, 2006
    As everybody assumes, I assumed too, that is written on the koran and that Bogy hasn't reached that part where it is written, and I wouldn't be surprised if it is written on the koran, of course I was only kidding of me becoming a koranist, even though those 72 reasons are quite enticing, if they were really true. :)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page