1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Would you favor creating a single country in North America?

Discussion in 'The OT' started by News Junky, May 2, 2006.

Would you favor creating annexing Mexico and Canada?

  1. No.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Yes. Great idea. More oil, we fix Mexico's corruption problems, stability and smaller borders.

    36 vote(s)
    57.1%
  3. Yes, but just Canada.

    16 vote(s)
    25.4%
  4. Yes, but just Mexico.

    11 vote(s)
    17.5%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. pjmrt

    pjmrt Hall Of Fame

    3,939
    0
    Jul 17, 2003
    Ok, but I've seen my fair share of St Pats celebrations (of which most participants probably weren't even sober enough to hold a flag, granted) and Columbus day - without seeing any flags other than the US.

    Ditto my remark above. Plus, unless I'm mistaken, Hawaii is a US state. I too see them everywhere, flying underneath the US flag however.

    And again, we don't disagree with that part. This country is not called the "melting pot" without cause. But as proud as I am of my ethnic heritage, I am first and foremost an American, as was my parents, grandparents. And so are the overwhelming majority of the other (legal) immigrants. I visit many ethnic restraunts - never have a problem finding someone to take my order in English (although quite happy to receive the order in their native tongue, bein?). However, I have had occasional trouble in fast food restraunts in Florida having the person taking my order unable to speak or effectively understand english! I have seen many, many ethnic neighborhoods. The first generation, (old ones), struggle with english. But the kids, learn english. They often learn their native tongue as well, but they learn english, and the generations that follow. It is easy to spot the illegal aliens here, the children don't speak english. Its a colonial attitude by these new "immigrants". They whine and complain about the processes we have, but they don't seem interested in becoming a part of the US, just taking a piece of the US and creating their own little colony - and the rest of us have to bend over and come to them. All I'm saying is this flies in the face of generations of legit immigration by a great number of nationalities. Its not ethnic pride I'm talking about. Its ethnic exclusivism. Or are you saying saying that these illegal mexican "immigrants" are somehow inferior to the other immigrants that we must now somehow bend the rules to benefit them. I, personnaly, have never seen a US ballot printed in german, russian, chinese, ... I know of no pushes to teach basic school classes (like math) bilingually in french/english, vietnamese/english,... yet somehow we must do this for hispanics? No. A country has the rights to govern their bordors. There is no guaranteed right for anyone to come to America. But still the door is wide open - but certain procedures must be followed. And this is not land for the taking, we welcome citizens and people who want to encorporate into our society. If you're only showing up here for the paycheck, and everything else you live and breath is for the wonderful Mexican homeland, I say "beat it". I'm sure that will offend the liberal horde here, but that's my feeling. I welcome all who want to become a part of our society. But while retaining the ethnic heritage and richness thereof, one gives up the allegiance to the old homeland. They can become a part of the US, which means (among other things) learning to speak the dominant language here and to follow our laws - just like generations of immigrants before them,.... or then can beat a path back to their homeland and stay there, with help from wire fences and armed guards if necessary.
     
  2. TNGTony

    TNGTony Hall Of Fame

    5,345
    0
    Mar 23, 2002
    It's as if my last 4 posts were never typed.

    See ya
    Tony
     
  3. Geronimo

    Geronimo Native American Potentate DBSTalk Gold Club

    8,303
    0
    Mar 23, 2002
    There are many ethnic celebrations. I certainly have seen Irish flags at St. Patrick's Day parades and Italian flags on Columbus Day and certain other festivals. The Hawaiian flag is a bit different. As PJ rightly points out it is a state flag. It is my understanding though that the native peoples sometimes use it as a symbol of the indigenous culture though. Personally I have no problem with people being proud of their heritage and culture.


    But yes some conservative commentators (eg Michelle Malkin) will tell you that all this is part of the alleged Reconquista movement that News Junky alludes to.

    But I think that this thread is moving in a really strange direction.
     
  4. Bogy

    Bogy Hall Of Fame

    13,242
    1
    Mar 23, 2002
    Three Nederlander enclaves, Pella Iowa, Orange City Iowa, and Holland Michigan, will all be celebrating their Dutch heritage in the next few weeks, with hundreds of thousands of tulips, wooden shoes, and Dutch flags. Our goal is to return this continent to its roots, what it was meant to be before the English invaded New Amsterdam (known by some as Manhattan Island). :D

    There was an article in the Waterloo Courier a week or so ago which focused on several families of Mexican heritage. Both legal and illegal. The parents still speak primarily Spanish, and hope to return home some day. The kids speak a mix of Spanish and English, speaking English fluently with the degree of accent depending on just how old they were when they moved here. One daughter who was born in this country speaks almost no Spanish and depends on her siblings to translate for her when the parents speak Spanish. That is after ONE generation. The parents are almost incapacitated by the Iowa winters, the kids range from loving the snow to taking it as a matter of course. These immigrants are no different than those who came before. They just have darker skin.

    Once again, what this has to do with whether this continent should become on Nation escapes me.
     
  5. News Junky

    News Junky Icon

    511
    0
    Mar 16, 2005
    from:http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1624022/posts

    AIC/Zogby Mexican Opinion Poll [2002]
    Americans for Immigration Control Press Release ^ | 6/12/02 | Zogby International

    Posted on 04/29/2006 10:24:17 PM PDT by Helvan

    New Zogby Poll: Mexicans Say Southwest U.S. Belongs to Them; Shouldn't Need Permission to Enter U.S.

    WASHINGTON, June 12 /PRNewswire/ -- Americans and Mexicans have widely divergent views of border issues, according to a new poll by Zogby International. Zogby found that a large majority of the Mexican population believes the southwest territory of the U.S. rightfully belongs to Mexico, and that Mexicans should have the right to enter the U.S. without first obtaining U.S. permission. By contrast, Zogby's survey of Americans conducted within a few days of the Mexican poll shows a large majority supports reducing immigration levels and wants the military deployed along the border to protect the U.S. from illegal immigration.

    Zogby's poll found that 58 percent of Mexicans agree with the statement, "the territory of the United States' Southwest rightfully belongs to Mexico." Only 28 percent disagree, and 14 percent are unsure. A similar majority, 57 percent, agree with the statement, "Mexicans should have the right to enter the U.S. without U.S. permission," while 35 percent disagree. Seven percent are unsure.
     
  6. News Junky

    News Junky Icon

    511
    0
    Mar 16, 2005
    How Mexicans See Americans
    Hard Working 26%
    Honest 16%
    Law Abiding 40%
    Tolerant 17%
    Racist 73%

    How Americans see Mexicans
    Hard Working 78%
    Honest 42%
    Law Abiding 34%
    Tolerant 44%
    Racist 18%

    from: http://www.zogby.com/search/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1086
     
  7. jonstad

    jonstad Hall Of Fame

    6,002
    1
    Jun 27, 2002
    Actually, it's a national flag that became a state flag. And I almost didn't mention it because for many it represents much more than heritage and culture. It represents an overt, not covert, desire to "retake" Hawaii and become an independent nation once again. If Michelle Malkin wants to be paraniod about losing US territory back to its original inhabitants, she should start with Hawaii.
     
  8. Geronimo

    Geronimo Native American Potentate DBSTalk Gold Club

    8,303
    0
    Mar 23, 2002
    Well you have to watch out for those "original inhabitants". Maybe you should send them all back where they came from.

    But that Hawaiian flag has obviously changed a bit over time. I thought it had a Union Jack in one corner. am I wrong or are they flying an even earlier flag dating back to independence?

    As for Hawaii leaving the Union well Good luck with that. The constitution describes how you join the US but it does not describe any mechanism for leaving. I believe that a group of states tried it once before but that it did not work out as well as they hoped.


    But I don't s ee how the US annexing Canada and Mexico is going to solve much here. In fact if we see things so differently I don't see how this grand union could possibly work.

    This is really a strange thread.
     
  9. ntexasdude

    ntexasdude Hall Of Fame

    2,684
    0
    Jan 23, 2005
    Yeah man, like Texas.:p

    She can stop by my crib without fear of paranoia. I'll invite her in for a cup-o-tea, non-political discussion and some HDTV.:D
     
  10. Bogy

    Bogy Hall Of Fame

    13,242
    1
    Mar 23, 2002
    As far as people waving flags that are less than symbolic of loyalty to America, how about all the dufuses who proudly display the Battle Flag of the Confederacy, going so far as to display it over state capitols? NOBODY who has one of these displayed on their pickup truck has any place to complain about someone with a Mexican flag. I have a suggestion as to where they can place their flag of treason.
     
  11. jonstad

    jonstad Hall Of Fame

    6,002
    1
    Jun 27, 2002
    I'd have to agree with your last comment.:p

    As for Hawaii leaving the union, the argument is that the annexation was illegal and therefore everything after was illegal too. And without getting into the details, there is probably some legitimate grounds for this position.

    Peronally I think it would be extremely foolish for Hawaii to return to being a sovereign nation at this point, but people can get pretty crazy about this sort of nationalist issue. The current situation is the state and feds throw money at the Hawaiians in the form of essentially free land(Hawaiian homelands), cradle to grave health care and non-competitive scholarships allowing them to attain about whatever level of higher education they desire, particularly in the University or Hawaii system.

    However, all of this seems to work to their detriment and Hawaiians still manage to be among the poorest, least educated and unhealthiest minorities in the state despite these "advantages". This of course leads some to believe they'd be better off returning to a "Hawaiian nation". I've got my doubts, regardless or the flaws of the current system.

    The flag?

    In a nutshell, Hawai had no flag before the arrival of Captain Cooke, and was in fact not a unified "nation" but a group of warring islands led by various warlord chieftains. Kamehameha I united the islands into a single unit largely because he was smart enough to acquire firearms and a small schooner with cannons. Outrigger canoes and wooden spears were no match.:ewww:

    One of the British explorers following Cooke "claimed" Hawaii for Great Britain. He "planted the flag". When word eventually got back to England, they reversed the situation, stating they'd rather just respect and deal with the Hawaiian monarchy. The Alii(royalty) were eternally grateful for this but reasoned perhaps they should have their own flag to prevent someone else from "planting" another one. By this time American missionaries were rampant, and so to honor the British and Americans, the current design was created. The seven red, white and blue stripes represent the seven major islands and the Union Jack where our stars would be is a nod to the British.

    Anyway, big nutshell, but I do tend to ramble.:blush:

    Upon the overthrow, the "provisional government" retained the flag rather then design a new one(they expected to be immediately annexed anyway). And it then became first the territorial and then state flag. But it is the same flag that flew over the palaces and government buildings when Hawaii was still an sovereign nation. Hence its ironic dual use as state flag and symbol of independence.
     
  12. Geronimo

    Geronimo Native American Potentate DBSTalk Gold Club

    8,303
    0
    Mar 23, 2002
    the other secessionist movement claimed that there were special circumstances surrounding their ji=oining the union. Some even claim that at least some of the Southern states "signed documents" giving them the right to secede.

    But according to Uncle Sam all 50 states asked to join and there is no provision to leave. Having said that even Lincoln conceded that any contract can be modified by mutual consent. If the Hawaiians could convince the rest of us to let you leave that would be one thing. But once accepted you as part of the Union you can't just leave.
     
  13. dpd146

    dpd146 Godfather

    415
    0
    Oct 1, 2005
    I'm sure you were referring to a museum. :lol:
     
  14. TNGTony

    TNGTony Hall Of Fame

    5,345
    0
    Mar 23, 2002
    That is exactly what happened with my family! My mother speak English fluently, but falls back on speaking spanish at homw. All my siblings speak primarily English and will respond to my mother's spanish conversation in English most of the time. My youngest brother who was 4 when we moved to the mainland can speak spanish with the thinkest English accent you've ever heard and struggles for words. I was 4 years older when we moved and made a concious effort to keep up with my Spanish. I spent summers in PR as a kid with family to learn Spanish.

    My mother moved...check that, was draged to the states kicking a screaming all the way by my father. The deal was we were moving here for 3 to 5 years while he finished his residency in phychiatry. 29 years later, he passed away having built a successful practice in Cincinnati. And 36 years aftet the initial "temporary" move, my mother still lives in the same house.

    She has asked that the song "En Mi Viejo San Juan" (In my old San Juan) be played during her funeral. And she is serious! The sentiment that the generation that moved here will some day return to their homeland is nothing new. This song captures the heart and soul of the people who have left the island for better economic oportunities. It is the lament of every migrant. But it doesn't take away the feeling of allegiance to the new home.

    Here are the lyrics to the song in the original Spanish:

    En mi Viejo San Juan, cuántos sueños forjé, en mis años de infancia...
    Mi primera ilusión, y mis cuitas de amor, son recuerdos del alma. . ..
    Una tarde partí hacía extraña nación, pues lo quiso el destino.
    Pero mi corazón, se quedó frente al mar, en mi Viejo San Juan.

    Adiós, adiós - adiós,
    Mi diosa del mar - mi reina del palmar
    Me voy, ya me voy, pero un día volveré . .
    A buscar mi querer, a soñar otra vez, en mi Viejo San Juan.

    Pero el tiempo pasó y el destino burló, mi terrible nostalgia . . .
    Y no pude volver al San Juan que yo amé, pedacito de patria . .
    Mi cabello blanqueó, ya mi vida se va - ya la muerte me llama,
    Y no quiero morir alejado de ti Puerto Rico del alma....

    Noel Estrada


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Remember that poetry does not translate well. But the sentiment is still there. Here is the English Translation. The [ ] surroung the word directly translated but the thought is not the same. Certain words have no real translation without a paragraph of explanation :

    In my Old San Juan, how many dreams did I forged in my childhood years?
    My first illusion, and my [griefs] of love are memories of the soul
    One afternoon I lef for a [foreign/strange] nation, that's how destiny would have it
    But my heart stayd in front of the sea, of my Old San Juan.

    (chorus)
    Goodbye (goodbye, goodbye)
    My dear Borinquen (land of my love)
    Goodbye (goodbye, goodbye)
    Mi Goddess of the Sea (my Queen of the palm groves)

    I'm leaving (I'm leaving now)
    But someday I'll return
    To search for my love
    To dream once again
    In my Old San Juan.


    But time passed me by, and destiny mocked my terrible nostalgia.
    And I could not return to the San Juan that I loved, little piece of my homeland.
    My hair turned to white, my life is leaving me, death is calling me.
    I do not want to die [far away] from you, Puerto Rico of my soul!

    (Chorus)

    I am sure that every culture has a similar song for their homeland. This happens to be the official Hymn of San Juan, PR.

    See ya
    Tony
     
  15. News Junky

    News Junky Icon

    511
    0
    Mar 16, 2005
    I agree with Tony. The concern I have is 2 fold:

    1. The Spanish speakers enclaves are so large relatively speaking coupled with an anti-American world view (as indicated by my post #66) by many of the Spanish speakers, the foundation might be being laid for a future contentious border dispute or worse, future second US civil war.

    2. Not speaking the same language I feel has embedded barriers the could keep the general English speaking population separated from the Spanish speaking community that could ultimately lead to the 2 groups seeing each other as separate nationalities.

    I agree I tend to lean a little paranoid so hopefully I'm making too much of this. At Tony's recommendation I'm trying to improve my Spanish. I'm listening to Spanish radio everyday and watching Despierta America in the morning.
     
  16. News Junky

    News Junky Icon

    511
    0
    Mar 16, 2005
    I'm literally fighting back tears right now. That's so beautiful. PR is a beautiful island. I hope she gets to go home regularly. If I were rich I’d buy a summer home there.

    While we're talking about Puerto Rico, maybe I'm crazy but I have never considered Puerto Ricans as foreigners. Puerto Rico is America. I say crazy because my experience has been Puerto Ricans like to see themselves as different from Americans, at least the ones I know. In every war since WWI (I think) Puerto Ricans have given their lives for this country. The only reason its not a state yet is the tax consequence. Under the current arrangement when residents of PR file their 1040s every April the money collected stays PR and acts like a state income tax. If (or should I say when) PR becomes as state, the people there will have to eat a 100% tax hike if government operations are to be funded at the same levels.
     
  17. jonstad

    jonstad Hall Of Fame

    6,002
    1
    Jun 27, 2002
    Yas Massah!;):p

    Again, I am not suggesting Hawaii should "secede". If for no other reason that alienating our two main sources of revenue, US tourism and the US military, with the real possibility of descending into an isolated third world island nation seems foolhardy at best and suicidal at worst. I'm merely pointing out there are those who take it quite seriously and their arguments may not be completely without merit. These arguments are seriously undercut in that Prince Jonah Kūhiō Kalaniana‘ole, heir to the Hawaiian throne and Hawaii's territorial representative to Congress, pushed almost immediately for Hawaii statehood. And the eventual vote for statehood was overwhelming, including a solid majority of blood Hawaiians.

    But that's neither here nor there. A "Hawaiian nation" ain't gonna happen anytime soon except perhaps in the sense there are Native-American "nations". And that's what some are pushing for now, a sort of "reservation status" similar to the relationship "enjoyed" by the indiginous tribes of North America. You tell me if that's a good idea or not!:rolleyes:
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page