BUG REPORT: No PVR functions on OTA PBS-HD

[guruka]

I was watching PBS-HD yesterday off the air (005-01 KNME here in NM - gorgeous picture and good programming too) and I noticed that the 'pause' and 'jump back' PVR buttons did not work. Has anyone else noticed PVR functions not working on any OTA HD? Was this an anomaly?

.....G

[smooth28la]

Originally Posted by guruka

I was watching PBS-HD yesterday off the air (005-01 KNME here in NM - gorgeous picture and good programming too) and I noticed that the 'pause' and 'jump back' PVR buttons did not work. Has anyone else noticed PVR functions not working on any OTA HD? Was this an anomaly?

.....G

Probably the same issue as http://dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=23007

Does your PBS station do multi-cast?

[guruka]

Originally Posted by smooth28la

Probably the same issue as http://dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=23007

Does your PBS station do multi-cast?

No, not yet. They have one SD subchannel (02) and one HD subchannel (01)

.....G

[smooth28la]

Originally Posted by guruka

No, not yet. They have one SD subchannel (02) and one HD subchannel (01)

.....G

That IS multi-cast.

[guruka]

Originally Posted by smooth28la

That IS multi-cast.

Okay, Okay. . . <chuckle> but they're only doing prime and HD, not PBS Kids or any of the other PBS multicast options. I'm going to try playing with PVR controls on other OTA subchannels and see if they work or if the problem is limited to KNME's HD subchannel.
.....G

[Allen Noland]

Maybe it is the same problem I'm having ( http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=22842 ).

Try this.
Create a timer for that channel, then do this exactly. <Menu> <7>. Highight the timer. At the top of the screen there should be a line that starts with DVR ??? where ??? is the channel number. What is the number? If it is a real Sat channel the pvr functions and timers will not work. I have 2 channels that map to 262 and 264 and neither will record.

I have called E* and talked to Advanced Tech Support. Haven't heard anything back if they are able to duplicate it or not.

Please try the process above and report back so I can know if it the same problem I'm having.

Thanks

[ibglowin]

Hmmmm.....

I cant pause OTA HD on the same PBS station G is talking about 5-01, but I can pause the SD 5-02 channel.

Now for the twist or at least I think its a twist.

On our local ABC I can pause 7-01 and 7-02. The program at the time on 7-01 was not in HD so I will try this again later tonight when they are but I could also pause 7-02 in SD.

So that said, perhaps its not the subchannel combo thing that has anything to do with it but whether or not the main channel is broadcasting in HD at the moment.......

shhhhh........

My 921 (is stable!)

[Allen Noland]

ibglowin,

can you please try my experiment in the thread before yours? I'm having the same kind of problem and would like to know the results from someone else.

Thanks

[paulcdavis]

When I create a timer for 010-01 KXT I get DVR 266 KXT diplayed in timer screen
When I create a timer for 006-01 KVI I get DVR 262 KVIE diplayed in timer screen
When I create a timer for 048-02 KNT I get DVR 560 KNTV diplayed in timer screen

Pause function appears to work ok for my OTA channels.

The timers seem to function and record the correct HD channel, but during the record the 921 also thinks that a sat tuner is in use for the phony channel. Any attempt to view what's being recorded causes the system to become unstable and crash.

If two timers are recording - one sat and one OTA, The 921 thinks that both Sat tuners are in use, so any attempt to view any sat channel during the record causes the system to become unstable and crash. It seems possible to watch a DVR event during the recording and not crash as long as you never leave the DVR event screen.

If it is true that the harware can only use two of the three tuners(two sat, one OTA) at any given time for any purpose (recording or viewing), the user guide should have made this point much more clear. Of course, attempting to use a third tuner should just result in an error message, not a system crash.

Boot 120B
Flash F051
SW L145 HECD-N

[Allen Noland]

Originally Posted by paulcdavis

timer for 006-01 KVI I get DVR 262 KVIE

And your sure it works on 006-01? My 006-01 maps to 262 also and I cannot record a timer or pause live TV

[ibglowin]

Just off the phone with Jim Gale the Director on engineering at KNME PBS in ABQ, NM. Lets just say PBS is excited about HDTV. He was gracious enough to spend 30 minutes on the phone explaining what they are doing (have done) that may be causing the record problem. I am not an electronics engineer (just a mild mannered plutonium chemist) but he explained that they had just gone through a MAJOR upgrade in their DTV broadcast facility. They and the other PBS stations we are having problems with have just implemented a new digital transmission system that allows them to broadcast both the full 1080i HD main channel ALONG with the SD sub channel in the SAME bit stream (not a separate bit stream like the other stations running sub channels). They just spent lots of $$$$ as well having everything certified. They are running FULL CERTIFIED EPG (guide data) along with a CERTIFIED bit stream.

The result is they are able to broadcast both channels in the same bit stream and our 921 doesn't know what the heck to do with it at the moment when you tell it to record as their are actually 2 channels present.

He went on further to say that the reason EPG doesn't show up in our OTA guides lies with (both) Dish Network AND DirectTV and problems in THEIR EPG software. There are several DTV receivers that are working properly with OTA guide data he said. Two that are working are the Samsung 165 and the LG3510 OTA receivers. If you hit the guide on either of these units you will get FULL program information.


So I guess we can officially add this new "twist" to our list of 921 bugs for Dish to work out. (at some point)

[paulcdavis]

Originally Posted by A_Noland

And your sure it works on 006-01? My 006-01 maps to 262 also and I cannot record a timer or pause live TV

Yes. 006-01 KVIE is the Sacramento PBS HD channel in my area and I have been able to record Nova (while simultaneouly recording the sat channel SD version from KQED PBS San Francisco in my locals package).

If I select 006-01 from the channel guide, I can view the channel and use pause, etc. I did not have any sat channels being recorded at the time of my test. Did you?

Note: Although I am 1.3 miles from Sutro Tower in San Francisco, due to topography I cannot lock on any San Francisco OTA signals, but my Channel master 3023 and the 921 seems to have no problem with the signals from Sacramento 62 miles away!

Boot 120B
Flash F051
SW L145 HECD-N

[John Quaglino]

I've got the same problem with my local CBS. It remaps from 36-1 to 04-1. There does not appear to be any subchannels. At one time they were running a weather radar sub but it does not appear anymore. If it helps, I can provide Dish with a sample of the stream recorded from a MyHD card. Someone just tell me where to email or send it!

[guruka]

Originally Posted by A_Noland

Maybe it is the same problem I'm having ( http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=22842 ).

Try this.
Create a timer for that channel, then do this exactly. <Menu> <7>. Highight the timer. At the top of the screen there should be a line that starts with DVR ??? where ??? is the channel number. What is the number? If it is a real Sat channel the pvr functions and timers will not work. I have 2 channels that map to 262 and 264 and neither will record.

I have called E* and talked to Advanced Tech Support. Haven't heard anything back if they are able to duplicate it or not.

Please try the process above and report back so I can know if it the same problem I'm having.

Thanks

Allen - No, It's not the same problem. My OTA channrels all map to their actual station numbers - 004-1, 005-1, 005-2, 007-1, etc. I think Ibglowin nailed the problem. It's the PSB bitstream itself.

.....G

[guruka]

Originally Posted by ibglowin

Just off the phone with Jim Gale the Director on engineering at KNME PBS in ABQ, NM. Lets just say PBS is excited about HDTV. He was gracious enough to spend 30 minutes on the phone explaining what they are doing (have done) that may be causing the record problem. I am not an electronics engineer (just a mild mannered plutonium chemist) but he explained that they had just gone through a MAJOR upgrade in their DTV broadcast facility. They and the other PBS stations we are having problems with have just implemented a new digital transmission system that allows them to broadcast both the full 1080i HD main channel ALONG with the SD sub channel in the SAME bit stream (not a separate bit stream like the other stations running sub channels). They just spent lots of $$$$ as well having everything certified. They are running FULL CERTIFIED EPG (guide data) along with a CERTIFIED bit stream.

The result is they are able to broadcast both channels in the same bit stream and our 921 doesn't know what the heck to do with it at the moment when you tell it to record as their are actually 2 channels present.

He went on further to say that the reason EPG doesn't show up in our OTA guides lies with (both) Dish Network AND DirectTV and problems in THEIR EPG software. There are several DTV receivers that are working properly with OTA guide data he said. Two that are working are the Samsung 165 and the LG3510 OTA receivers. If you hit the guide on either of these units you will get FULL program information.


So I guess we can officially add this new "twist" to our list of 921 bugs for Dish to work out. (at some point)

Good detective work. I suspect your findings are the cause of the issue we've been experiencing. Now the questions extant are:

1. What is E* going to do about restoring PVR functions to this type of hybrid
bitstream signal? and,

2. Since the PSIP channel and guide data being transmitted are correct, when will E* decode it properly so we can have guide and channel info?

.....G

[mah]

I notice when i hit record on a OTA channel i cannot switch to a satellite channel. any ideas? It says i must switch to live?

[Gary Swanson]

Here's a work a round. When you get locked in viewing your recording show pick another show that you have recorded, look at it then cancel it do not hit stop just use the dvr button to go back and cancel . It will then let you go to the Sat channels.

[paulcdavis]

Originally Posted by paulcdavis

Yes. 006-01 KVIE is the Sacramento PBS HD channel in my area and I have been able to record Nova (while simultaneouly recording the sat channel SD version from KQED PBS San Francisco in my locals package).

If I select 006-01 from the channel guide, I can view the channel and use pause, etc. I did not have any sat channels being recorded at the time of my test. Did you?

Update: I have now lost the ability to record 006-01 as well as the PVR functions when viewing the PBS station. I had successfully recorded two programs as I posted, but the last two timer recordings for the channel fired but recorded a DVR event of 0 minutes. I can still view 006-01, but pause, etc, does not work.

006-01 translates to DVR 262 in the timer list. Now if I select channel 262 to watch, then go to the program guide and select 006-01, the channel does not change, but remains on 262. PVR fuctions still work on 262. I can only view 006-01 if no sat tuner is set to 262.

I've deleted the channel and added it back in, but still no PVR functions. My other OTA channels still seem to have PVR functions and timer recording.

Is this going to be fixed in the next sw release?

[guruka]

I re-tested recording OTA KNME PBS-HD from Albuquerque New Mexico this morning and it now records fine and all PVR functions work. This is great.

If you have not been able to record PBS-HD in the past, try it now.

.....G

[paulcdavis]

Originally Posted by paulcdavis

Update: I have now lost the ability to record 006-01 as well as the PVR functions when viewing the PBS station. I had successfully recorded two programs as I posted, but the last two timer recordings for the channel fired but recorded a DVR event of 0 minutes. I can still view 006-01, but pause, etc, does not work.

006-01 translates to DVR 262 in the timer list. Now if I select channel 262 to watch, then go to the program guide and select 006-01, the channel does not change, but remains on 262. PVR fuctions still work on 262. I can only view 006-01 if no sat tuner is set to 262.

I've deleted the channel and added it back in, but still no PVR functions. My other OTA channels still seem to have PVR functions and timer recording.

Update #2

DVR and recording functions have also returned with L185 for my PBS station, 006-01 KVIE-DT. Why they were lost after an earlier software update and have now returned after L185 suggests to me that something strange is still going on, but I'll enjoy recording NOVA and Nature in HD while I can.

[cclement]

Originally Posted by paulcdavis

Update #2

DVR and recording functions have also returned with L185 for my PBS station, 006-01 KVIE-DT. Why they were lost after an earlier software update and have now returned after L185 suggests to me that something strange is still going on, but I'll enjoy recording NOVA and Nature in HD while I can.

I still don't have my PBS-HD PVR functions. This occurs on 002-01 (Channel 34) KTCA.

[DonLandis]

We have many different stations configurations here in Jacksonville FL:

WJXT 4-1, 4-2; 42-1, 42-2; 1080i, 480i DVR-OK
WJCT PBS 7-1, 7-2, 7-3, 7-4;remapped from ch38- 1080i, 480i still, 480i stills, 480i different pgm; DVR working on every sub channel
WJXX ABC 10-1, 720p No remapping happening, DVR working fine
WTLV NBC 13-1 1080i, No remapping happening, DVR working fine
WJWB WB, 17-1, 17-2; 1080i 480i ; Remapped from 34- NO DVR Functions
WTEV CBS, 19-2 no remapping 1080i DVR working
WTEV CBS, 47-1 1080i remapped from 19-2 921 loads this channel twice DVR working
WAWS FOX, 32-1 480p remapped to 30-1 DVR working fine

Not all multicast stations cause DVR failure. No Jacksonville station is doing DD5.1 yet
WJCT PBS has done some testing of it however.


ibglowin- Can you find out the name and model number of the encoder your PBS station is using. I would like to see if I can learn the same info from our CE at WJWB, our only station that also has no DVR function. I'd like to know what sort of transmission standard your PBS is using other than ATSC?

guruka- I don't believe L185 had anything to do with your having DVR function at this time.


BTW- I have heard some rumors that the HDTIVO has similar issues with certain stations. This issue appears to be more widespread than just a 921 bug.

[guruka]

ibglowin- Can you find out the name and model number of the encoder your PBS station is using. I would like to see if I can learn the same info from our CE at WJWB, our only station that also has no DVR function. I'd like to know what sort of transmission standard your PBS is using other than ATSC?

guruka- I don't believe L185 had anything to do with your having DVR function at this time.

BTW- I have heard some rumors that the HDTIVO has similar issues with certain stations. This issue appears to be more widespread than just a 921 bug.

Don - I agree that L185 is not the reason I can recored PBS-HD now. In order to find out why, I spent about 40 minutes on the phone with KNME chief engineer, Jim Gale, this morning. I asked if they had made any recent changes to their PSIP stream. And they did. Last week they added IP datacasting. and now I can record their OTA HD signal where I couldn't before. Go figure. Jim actually spent the $$ to have his PSIP stream fully certified.

They have a fantastic setup and their PSIP carries full rolling three day EPG info. He said the EPG lock on a Zenith LG3510 receiver is lightning fast. They are simulcasting SD and HD using a DM 6400 Statmux to convert the PBS 18 mbs stream down to 15.5 mbs for broadcast. Their encoder is a top-of-the-line Harmonic MV45. Jim is a great guy and offered me a full station tour on my next visit to Albuquerque. He hasn't been able to test with the Dish 921, but he said that if Dish will give him a loaner unit to test, he will be happy to test it with their signal. Mark - can this be arranged?

jgale@knme.org chief engineer

.....G

[ibglowin]

We are so lucky to have KNME and Jim Gale. They are both fantastic!

[Mark Lamutt]

G - I'll pass it along and see what happens...