(Title Edited) 921 Failed, Replacements have started shipping now

FarNorth · 03-14-04, 12:24 AM

Last Friday, my 921 locked up. Not completely sure but I believe L147 somehow didn't load and after that it wouldn't boot. After being told for almost a week that a replacement was going out, that it had 'interfaced with the shipping software,' that I could call back the next day and get a tracking number, the new unit never shippped. Now I have been told that Dish is not going to ship any 921s to anybody while they work on the bugs. This means that my machine doesn't work, they won't replace it, they haven't offered to repair my existing machinge and nobody knows when the situation will change. Seems fair to me.

bytre · 03-14-04, 01:31 AM

That is just wrong. Have you escalated to managers? The CEO's office?

FarNorth · 03-14-04, 02:05 AM

I've talked to a number of folks in the 'executive offices.' That is where the latest messages came from. I did get an email from the 'Technical Support' division saying they would call me. I'm not wildly optomistic.

Mike123abc · 03-14-04, 02:11 AM

It really sounds like a hardware issue they are trying to work through. The more reports like this show up, the more it shows that they are really working on something and want to minimize the number of 921s in the field until it is fixed. I bet they recall all the ones in the field to fix this. If it were just a software issue, they probably would have opened the flood gates and sent the product out like crazy because they could fix later.

tgerrish · 03-14-04, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike123abc

It really sounds like a hardware issue they are trying to work through. The more reports like this show up, the more it shows that they are really working on something and want to minimize the number of 921s in the field until it is fixed. I bet they recall all the ones in the field to fix this. If it were just a software issue, they probably would have opened the flood gates and sent the product out like crazy because they could fix later.

I got this distinct impression as well after talking to a "product escalation" guy at Dish; my unit was sent back in for repair a couple of weeks ago, but it really sounded like they have found more issues which probably cannot be fixed in software. I'm also betting that there is a recall of all 921s at some point to make some hardware fixes.

FarNorth · 03-14-04, 01:27 PM

Here's the two emails I got:

<<I am sorry to hear what you have described in your message. Unfortunately, I am not able to provide any updates regarding the status you are requesting. However, I have passed your information on and asked if somebody could look into this. Please let me know if someone does or does not contact you about this in the next couple of days.>>

<< I am a part of the Technical Operation Department with Dish Network. If you could provide us with a phone number and a good time to reach you, we can call you at your convenience to discuss your current situation. Thank you. >>

So far, the only messages I got last Friday indicated that they weren't going to do anything.

Karl Foster · 03-14-04, 01:43 PM

Have they offered you any sort of monetary compensation? I would call and demand a refund of your purchase price. $1000 to be treated like that is just plain wrong.

FarNorth · 03-14-04, 07:17 PM

I called 3 numbers and left messages today and sent 2 emails. No response.

Mark Lamutt · 03-15-04, 09:04 AM

I'm trying to find out what's really going on behind the scenes with this issue. FarNorth - you're not alone in this one. There are several people that have contacted me with the same issue - dead 921, and can't get any answer about repair or replacement.

I have reason to believe that there really are no 921s available at the moment, but that there will be soon (ie potentially in the next week or two depending on how testing goes). I don't believe that the holdup is related to the software.

FarNorth · 03-15-04, 11:09 AM

I believe you are partially correct. There are no 921s "available" because there are none that have been through treatment and are cured. My guess is there are 921s in inventory but they don't want to send me another that will also fail. Of course, the obvious questions are:

1. When will updated 921s be ready for folks like me who are currently without?
2. What happens to those in the field, will they be replaced or wait until they fail?
3. If this problem is so serious that a quick fix isn't practical, how did it escape testing and how did this machine get released?
4. Surely someone at Dish is the head of the 921 team. Doesn't he have any idea when the problem will be resolved?
5. Can't someone find the time to call or email me every few days and let me know what is going on? I haven't heard a word from anybody since Friday morning.

Mark Lamutt · 03-15-04, 11:41 AM

All excellent questions, and unfortunately I don't the answers to any of them. I don't have a lot of dealings with the head of the 921 hardware team. I mostly deal with the software team.

FarNorth · 03-15-04, 01:26 PM

Well, good news.........sort of. I had a call from someone in the technical group and he shed some light on what is happening. Hopefully, I am not violating any confidences by relaying what I was told. First, the good news: They are going to loan my an 811 until they can either replace or repair my 921. Yes, I would have preferred that this happen 10 days ago but 811s, even refurbs, are in almost as short a supply as 921s. The bad or mediocre news: There are apparently several issues with the 921s, some hardware and some software. From what I've been told, the hardware side is primarily manifested by lines on the picture and other display issues. The software stuff we know about, missed recordings and lockups.

At this point, Dish is testing a number of solutions and, of course, the hardware issues are the most crucial as those cannot be fixed in the field. As I understand it This explains why they haven't replaced mine; why send me a new unit that will need to have a chip replaced later? Why do it twice? As I understand it, Dish - or a vendor - is going to have to open each new 921 they have and change a chipset. I have no idea what happens to those already in the field.

So when will new units be ready to ship and when will Dish be ready to repair others? The fellow I talked with couldn't give me a firm answer but his gut feeling was 2 weeks - which probably means 4.

If I am correct, the only real difference between the 811 and the 921 is the dual-tuner capability. If that's all there is, I'll get by.

Slordak · 03-15-04, 02:14 PM

In my humble opinion, the biggest difference between the 811 and the 921 is that one is a PVR, and one is not. There are a slew of other differences too; hopefully you weren't using the DVI-I output to generate an analog signal, and you don't mind the channel guide being limited to 44 hours.

SimpleSimon · 03-15-04, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slordak

In my humble opinion, the biggest difference between the 811 and the 921 is that one is a PVR, and one is not.

FarNorth · 03-16-04, 10:17 AM

Looks like I confused the 811 with the 721. I guess I can run my 510 an record SD off one feed and use the loaner 811 to watch live HD on the other. I guess.

Ronald K · 03-16-04, 11:21 AM

Something does not make sense. The blue line issue is the only hardware related bug that I know of and it supposedly can be fixed by sending the 921 out for a 2 day repair.

Everything else is supposedly software related.

jsanders · 03-16-04, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FarNorth

The bad or mediocre news: There are apparently several issues with the 921s, some hardware and some software. From what I've been told, the hardware side is primarily manifested by lines on the picture and other display issues. The software stuff we know about, missed recordings and lockups.

At this point, Dish is testing a number of solutions and, of course, the hardware issues are the most crucial as those cannot be fixed in the field. As I understand it This explains why they haven't replaced mine; why send me a new unit that will need to have a chip replaced later? Why do it twice? As I understand it, Dish - or a vendor - is going to have to open each new 921 they have and change a chipset. I have no idea what happens to those already in the field.

It would be really nice if while fixing whatever hardware issue they are looking at, that they replaced the display chip to be able to drive HD and SD simultaneously, like the 811 does.... We can always hope, right??

David_Levin · 03-16-04, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronald K

Something does not make sense. The blue line issue is the only hardware related bug that I know of and it supposedly can be fixed by sending the 921 out for a 2 day repair.

Everything else is supposedly software related.

Is there a question there somewhere?

Modifying the boxes after the fact can be VERY expensive. This would be hand labor as opposed to the automated manufacuring. It could easily be as much human labor time as the original build. Then they also have around $50 in round trip shipping.

If they are modifying something in production, that could easily create the 2-3 month delay that we're seeing (they might be spinning the motherboard).

Also, we don't know for sure that the blue-line problem is the only hardware issue they're looking at. Poor timing or signal integrity could easily cause the instability we're seeing.

David_Levin · 03-16-04, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsanders

It would be really nice if while fixing whatever hardware issue they are looking at, that they replaced the display chip to be able to drive HD and SD simultaneously, like the 811 does.... We can always hope, right??

One could dream. The scaler in the 811 has to be able to output two streams at different resolutions simultaneously (effectively, you need two scalers). You then need separate signal paths on the motherboard. They'd probably have to redesign & replace the motherboard.

Even if they're looking at changes to fix the other problems they probably wouldn't to anything that extreme.

sleepy hollow · 03-16-04, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David_Levin

Is there a question there somewhere?

Modifying the boxes after the fact can be VERY expensive. This would be hand labor as opposed to the automated manufacuring. It could easily be as much human labor time as the original build. Then they also have around $50 in round trip shipping.

If they are modifying something in production, that could easily create the 2-3 month delay that we're seeing (they might be spinning the motherboard).

Also, we don't know for sure that the blue-line problem is the only hardware issue they're looking at. Poor timing or signal integrity could easily cause the instability we're seeing.

Agreed. I am beginnning to believe that the OTA instablities are h/w related. Signal lock should not be so tenuous with the signal strength levels I am getting, but it seems very fragile. That to me is indicative of h/w instability, but I am speculating.

jsanders · 03-16-04, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepy hollow

Agreed. I am beginnning to believe that the OTA instablities are h/w related. Signal lock should not be so tenuous with the signal strength levels I am getting, but it seems very fragile. That to me is indicative of h/w instability, but I am speculating.

The last build, they updated the FPGA if you remember.... There was a hardware problem, and it isn't unreasonable to think there are more to come. FPGAs are very expensive, maybe they are *also* waiting to work out some kinks and replace it with an ASIC in future 921s.

jgoggan · 03-16-04, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronald K

Something does not make sense. The blue line issue is the only hardware related bug that I know of and it supposedly can be fixed by sending the 921 out for a 2 day repair.

Everything else is supposedly software related.

I think the idea is that since the 921s have been on QA Hold for a while now -- and none are shipping -- that it might be more than just software issues.

We all know that, in the past, Dish has certainly continued shipping some other units with known software issues with the intent of fixing them with an update later. In this case, they won't let any more 921s out -- apparently even as swaps for bad 921s in some cases -- which seems to indicate that there might be more to it than just software bugs...

I guess we'll have to see. All I know is that I'm still waiting in line even though I wouldn't mind at all having a 921 and dealing with the current bugs...

- John...

sleepy hollow · 03-16-04, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsanders

The last build, they updated the FPGA if you remember.... There was a hardware problem, and it isn't unreasonable to think there are more to come. FPGAs are very expensive, maybe they are *also* waiting to work out some kinks and replace it with an ASIC in future 921s.

Sorry, but you are at the fringe of my knowledge. What's an FPGA? I assume an ASIC is a monster A/D chip or chipset?

Otherwise I am in complete agreement with the other posters. I think they are zeroing in on the troubles. Finally, I have to say I am very optimistic about the future of this product, current experience notwithstanding. I really think they are tackling very complex technologies and user interface issues here. I really have to wonder about the ability of competitors to stay up. Maybe I am wrong, but it will be interesting to watch either way.

CATV will have tremendous difficulties with more complex technologies. they are simply not set up for this. They are having enough troubles roillking out Digital CATV, a mere "replacement" for what they already have. I do not knw about D*, but they are outsourcing it and have lower quality HD technology in their downlinks.

What a blast either way.

jsanders · 03-16-04, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepy hollow

Sorry, but you are at the fringe of my knowledge. What's an FPGA? I assume an ASIC is a monster A/D chip or chipset?

An ASIC is an application specific integrated circuit. They can be anything, an A/D, or glue logic on a PC for chip selects. The FPGA is a programmable gate array chip. Basically, it is just a big pile of transistors that can be wired on the fly to become anything. It is usually used to develop the chip before it gets sent to a fab and cut in stone, the ASIC can't be changed.

I have heard of some cisco routers that have FPGAs to enable future hardware upgrades.

FarNorth · 03-17-04, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgoggan

I think the idea is that since the 921s have been on QA Hold for a while now -- and none are shipping -- that it might be more than just software issues.

We all know that, in the past, Dish has certainly continued shipping some other units with known software issues with the intent of fixing them with an update later. In this case, they won't let any more 921s out -- apparently even as swaps for bad 921s in some cases -- which seems to indicate that there might be more to it than just software bugs...

I guess we'll have to see. All I know is that I'm still waiting in line even though I wouldn't mind at all having a 921 and dealing with the current bugs...

- John...

I believe you are correct. From what I can gather, Dish techs are going to have to replace chipsets in every new unit in stock as well as upgrade software. That means there are likely new units there in the warehouse that will have to be opened up, pieces swapped out and then made ready. Since they are shipping me a loaner 811, that would indicate to me they are at least 2 weeks away from having any updated 921s ready to ship. Once they have 100 or so, they'll send out the replacements to everyone like me who is an existing owner with a bad 921. Once those are covered, then they'll start to ship to new customers and notify the remaining existing owners that they would like to swap their units out. If I had to guess, new units won't be shipped to new customers for at least 6 more weeks.

One other point: If/when your 921 is sent in for the new chipset, you will not get that unit back, you'll get a new one. This means there are going to be a bunch of refurbed 921s for sale at some point. I've been told that there are somewhat less than 1,000 in the field so my guess is that 3-400 will get fixed and sold for cheap some day.