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Guest Message by DevFuse

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My current conversation with Sky Angel


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75 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Cloud88

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 11:43 PM

I too received the letter from SkyAngel regarding the wrongful termination of lifetime subscribers. How peculiar: I noticed that in their letter they sent, it had no return address and no phone number. In other words, no way to contact them. How many business have you seen that send you a letter with no return address or contact phone number? Only the envelope contained a return address.

Doesn't this smell fishy to you? Anyway, here's their address for you Lifetime Subscribers if you feel you want to write to them:

Attn: Rob Johnson, CEO
Dominion Sky Angel
3050 Horseshoe Dr. N, Ste 290
Naples, FL 34104-7910


Sky Angel
P.O. Box 7609
Naples, FL 34101

I sent them a letter telling them that they must complete their obligation to us lifetime subscribers.

Bye.

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#2 OFFLINE   Cloud88

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 03:15 PM

1-31-08
Mary (She wouldn't give her last name), The Call Center Director, called me.
I told her that I hope she's recording this conversation or something. She said that she's writing it down. In a nut shell, this is our conversation:

She attempted to convince me to accept their Lifetime Subscriber termination policy. I said that's not acceptable. She said Lifetime Membership was for the lifetime of the satellite. I said, "There's nothing wrong with the satellite. It's not destroyed. What has changed is your delivery method, and that was the decision of SkyAngel." She had nothing to say in response to that.

She wouldn't budge, and neither would I.. I told her SkyAngel should consider their actions, that it may constitute fraud. She had nothing to say.

I asked what was her supervisor's name. She said, "Vi". I asked for her last name. She said she can't give that to me. I asked why doesn't SkyAngel give out last names. She said, "A lot of businesses these days don't give out last names."

I requested to speak to "Vi" or the President himself. She said she would give them the message.
I told her that I'm glad we both had an amicable conversation, and said, "Goodbye."
I am waiting for their call.

#3 OFFLINE   quiverof8

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 07:58 PM

CS told me they were "noting my account" (probably as a trouble maker!). she kept trying to convince me how great IPTV was, rather than address the issue :(

I wonder if you call back and ask them to check the prior notes on your account there will be anything there?

there is an address, email and possibly phone for VP nancy posted here on the forum somewhere.

Your best bet is actually registered snail mail, or email. At least there is a written record then. Of course on CS usually sends a form email and then won't answer you again. CS had , a few months back told me they ere considering an "offer to lifetime members". obviously did NOT happen. I don't consider the free box with 18 month comittment any sort of an offer. Its available to anyone who calls them! would have been smarter to offer it to lifetime, no charge, no committment. Once people tried it maybe they would stay..

#4 OFFLINE   FTA Michael

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 10:40 AM

IMHO, when a company treats you wrong, rather than expend a lot of energy in a futile effort to bring it to justice, you should just shake its dust from your sandals and move on to someplace better. Would that work here?
Yes, FTABlog is active again. Why do you ask?

#5 OFFLINE   Bill R

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 11:42 AM

IMHO, when a company treats you wrong, rather than expend a lot of energy in a futile effort to bring it to justice, you should just shake its dust from your sandals and move on to someplace better. Would that work here?


WOW! Michael, some of us sure have a different way of dealing with companies that treat us wrong.

IMO, the reason that so many companies get away with some of the things that they do is because people don't fight back. I don't know if it is my military background or the fact that my family has three lawyers (one is a judge) but your method is not how I plan on dealing with Sky Angel.

It is up to the courts to decide if what they are doing (not honoring lifetime subscriptions) is LEGALLY wrong but I don't think that many people would disagree with me when I say what they are doing is not morally right. We trusted Sky Angel (many times over the years). They severely broke that trust. Some of us are not going away without a fight. There will VERY likely be a class action lawsuit over the lifetime subscriptions. To me, winning (in court) is not the most important part of that. Teaching Sky Angel a lesson that they can't treat people like they plan to is. Hopefully, by the time the court costs are paid Nancy, Rob and the "gang" will have to sell their BMWs and the will no longer be a Sky Angel service.

This "Sky Angel thing" is going to get very, very, nasty in the next few months.
Bill R

#6 OFFLINE   Jashobeam

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 06:56 PM

IMHO, when a company treats you wrong, rather than expend a lot of energy in a futile effort to bring it to justice, you should just shake its dust from your sandals and move on to someplace better. Would that work here?


Yep, the term beating a dead horse comes to mind. The satellite is dying and will be replaced in just months according to reports.

#7 OFFLINE   Bill R

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 09:06 PM

Yep, the term beating a dead horse comes to mind. The satellite is dying and will be replaced in just months according to reports.


The Echostar 3 satellite that the Sky Angel channels are on is not near death. It is true that it is not fully functional but it has been that way for a long time. There is a new satellite going to that slot (likely to launch next month) but Sky Angel could not reach an agreement with Echostar to use it and they is why they Sky Angel is putting out the lie that the satellite is dying. Without having "inside information" it is hard to determine how long the Echostar 3 satellite will last but Echostar is going to continue to use it for at least a few more years.
Bill R

#8 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 09:27 PM

It is dead enough. If E* did not have E12 over there they would be in real trouble.

This satellite started with 44 transponders to cover 32 channels at 120w or 16 transponders at 230w. As of the beginning of 2007, they were down to 18 of the 44 transponders (59% failed) and were able to operate only 15 of the 19 transponders E3 should be covering (21% reduction in capacity).

It has some life in it ... but not enough to continue serving at 61.5°.

While EchoStar 3's capacity has diminished, the satellite still has many years of useful life and can provide valuable services from another orbital location where the inefficiencies associated with its transponder losses will have a less pronounced effect.

I'd bet that EchoStar3 will be given an EchoStar4 level assignment ... there in the sky doing something but not part of the DISH Network system nor anything really worth mentioning. If it were not for the extra slots that EchoStar needs to occupy to protect their licenses we would be seeing EchoStar3 shut down and used as an emergency backup - or parked in a garbage orbit.

#9 OFFLINE   dsharmon

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 10:47 PM

Regardless of the life expectancy of Echostar 3, SkyAngel has the ability to have programming served from 61.5 or any other position that Dish Network provides satellite proramming from. SkyAngel decided to leave this technology for IPTV on their own accord. SkyAngel claiming they have to foot the entire cost of a brand new satellite to remain with the satellite platform is just as bogus as the death of Echostar 3.

I'm a Lifetime subscriber and SkyAngel will not turn my service back on even though my subscription has not expired per their stated deadline of March 1. This should be a non-issue with a Christian company. A Christian company should back it's Lifetime Subscription regardless of what technology they chose to deploy the content. When I signed up for SkyAngel, I signed up for the content, not the technology. A subscription is for content, not the medium that is used to deliver the content.

So, is SkyAngel acting in a Christ-like manner as one would expect? Is SkyAngel's motive what one would expect from a Christian company? Is the NFL Channel content important to a Christian Lifetime subscriber? SkyAngel needs to realize that the non-believer is watching their actions. Maybe one would think that the integrity of a Christian company is not any different than that a non-Christian company? The real motive for decisions is the bottom line. If this is the case, I do not see any reason not to file a class action suit.

#10 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 11:50 PM

SkyAngel does not have the ability to force EchoStar to carry their signals.

SkyAngel signed a specific deal with EchoStar, for TEMPORARY use of the EchoStar 3 satellite. Now over 10 years later EchoStar 3 IS being taken out of service and per the terms of the contract they signed WILL no longer be available for their use.

Without EchoStar's satellite SkyAngel would have never been a satellite service in the first place. SkyAngel NEVER met an FCC construction deadline, built a satellite or built an uplink center. They got waivers from the FCC to use a satellite that was not theirs. Ten years later they have no satellite.

Unless EchoStar made the CHOICE to offer SkyAngel space on a new satellite (cooperation that should not be expected in light of all the trouble that SkyAngel gave them as a tenant) it is true that their only other option was to get their own satellite. Perhaps they could have bought one used, but there are not that many out there. Probably the best deal for them would be to get DirecTV to lease them a satellite - which would have bumped DISH off of several transponders. But for that to work DirecTV would have to be interested.

You have to have a satellite to be a satellite company and there is only two ways to get a satellite ... buy one or lease one. Both options require MONEY. SkyAngel should consider itself blessed that they had the opportunity to be on E3 at 61.5° for the past 10 years. Having basically free satellite carriage for 10 years is NOT typical.

In a couple of months SkyAngel will be off the bird closely followed by the bird being put out to pasture. These are facts that SkyAngel cannot change. We've seen them 'spin' the truth for the past 10 years. Many turned a blind eye to it - as long as their personal needs were served. Now SkyAngel isn't going to serve their personal needs (by no longer being free or no longer being satellite) the noise level has risen.

Have fun with your class action suits ... although it seems that the only point of suing is vengance. Putting them completely out of business and punishing those involved? Isn't that Someone Else's job?

At any rate, I'm not sure we're even discussing the SkyAngel DBS service anymore. No one can sign up for the service and nobody anywhere seems to be discussing the channels themselves (only the impending doom).

#11 OFFLINE   quiverof8

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 01:36 AM

How many of those who continue to make excuses for sky angel are actually lifetime members?

How many LIFETIME member are signed up for iPTV?

#12 OFFLINE   mrjosh

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 01:47 AM

Okay since it has been mentioned that people aren't discussing the channels, lets do so. I contacted TVU- A channel I enjoy watching, Sky Angel, and Dish Network all at the same time. Only TVU and Dish Network returned my email. TVU told me that Dish Network is going to continue to carry Angel One (confirmed by Dish) They are also going to take Angel Two and KTV (Also confirmed by Dish). TVU told me that tentative plans are in the work to be carried as a time share with KTV (something KTV has done in the past with Spirit). In the evening and night hours, KTV would be known as TVU, though, I don't know if it affects IPTV customers that receive KTV through Sky Angel. Dish confirmed that they are working on plans to add more religious programming in addition but said "We cannot at this time discuss further programming options as our contract with Dominion has yet to end." Who knows what will happen...I know one thing, I'm not following Sky Angel to IPTV...if it comes down to it, I'll go to Glory Star when my Dish Contract comes to an end.

#13 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 10:42 AM

How many of those who continue to make excuses for sky angel are actually lifetime members?

How many LIFETIME member are signed up for iPTV?

How many lifetime members "made excuses" for SkyAngel for most of the past 10 years when the little details such as never building an uplink or launching a satellite and using their contract and the courts to block the spread of the gospel via additional channels on DISH Network? How many waited until SkyAngel's problems affected them personally with the removal of religious channels for secular channels and then an extra charge or removal of those secular channels and now the impending removal from satellite of all their "free" channels?

Most lifetimers sat around defending SkyAngel through the lawsuits and through the removal of religious channels for secular ... until those secular channels became extra charge or were removed. We even have lifetimers in the current argument that admit that they would have canceled SkyAngel due to content issues if they were not lifetime members ... it's criminal to see those who would have walked away lead the charge to put SkyAngel IPTV out of business.

It is the nature of public discourse, especially on the Internet, that the people complaining speak more than the people who have accepted the situation and moved on. I doubt the couple of dozen people posting in the forums represent what all lifetimers feel about the matter. Most just represent the people who can't move on.

Okay since it has been mentioned that people aren't discussing the channels, lets do so. I contacted TVU- A channel I enjoy watching, Sky Angel, and Dish Network all at the same time. Only TVU and Dish Network returned my email. TVU told me that Dish Network is going to continue to carry Angel One (confirmed by Dish) They are also going to take Angel Two and KTV (Also confirmed by Dish). TVU told me that tentative plans are in the work to be carried as a time share with KTV (something KTV has done in the past with Spirit). In the evening and night hours, KTV would be known as TVU, though, I don't know if it affects IPTV customers that receive KTV through Sky Angel. Dish confirmed that they are working on plans to add more religious programming in addition but said "We cannot at this time discuss further programming options as our contract with Dominion has yet to end." Who knows what will happen...I know one thing, I'm not following Sky Angel to IPTV...if it comes down to it, I'll go to Glory Star when my Dish Contract comes to an end.

I hope the "confirmed" comes true.

If SkyAngel's true goal is to spread the gospel via satellite (and not just make a buck or seek glory) the best way of doing that is through a satellite service that will deliver their signals to 13 million people - not by being an expensive side service. The more religious channels that can be put on DISH the better, for their goal.

#14 OFFLINE   quiverof8

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 02:18 PM

Those were not "free" they were paid for in advance, BIG differnece. We lifetimers made it possible for sky angel to stay in business so you monthly people could have it available, Lifetimers helped skyangel get to the point of switching to iptv. If lifetimers hadn't prepaid skyangel would ave gone under years ago.

Some didn't take the lifetime opportunity so now seem to rejoice in the misfortune of those who did really support skyangel back when it counted.

#15 OFFLINE   Cloud88

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 07:48 PM

WOW! Michael, some of us sure have a different way of dealing with companies that treat us wrong.

IMO, the reason that so many companies get away with some of the things that they do is because people don't fight back. I don't know if it is my military background or the fact that my family has three lawyers (one is a judge) but your method is not how I plan on dealing with Sky Angel.

It is up to the courts to decide if what they are doing (not honoring lifetime subscriptions) is LEGALLY wrong but I don't think that many people would disagree with me when I say what they are doing is not morally right. We trusted Sky Angel (many times over the years). They severely broke that trust. Some of us are not going away without a fight. There will VERY likely be a class action lawsuit over the lifetime subscriptions. To me, winning (in court) is not the most important part of that. Teaching Sky Angel a lesson that they can't treat people like they plan to is. Hopefully, by the time the court costs are paid Nancy, Rob and the "gang" will have to sell their BMWs and the will no longer be a Sky Angel service.

This "Sky Angel thing" is going to get very, very, nasty in the next few months.


Wow, Bill R. This is Cloud88. I agree with you TOTALLY. I'm already giving Sky Angel a fight. They just want to brush us Lifetime Subscribers off so they can add a new wing to their homes !! Ha.ha. Just kidding. But, I WANT MY SKY ANGEL !! I will post a new thread now.

#16 OFFLINE   Cloud88

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 08:16 PM

This is Cloud88. I just want you all to know what I've done, just for your information. First, I need to enter this next disclaimer: This next information is only that. Information. It is not intended to spur, guide, prompt -- or anything else of this nature -- you to contact Sky Angel or deal with them in any way. This is only for freedom-of-information purposes. If you are a lifetime subscriber, and you choose to accept or not accept Sky Angel's decision to end the lifetime membership status for all customers invoved, all your actions are at your own discretion and decision.

Now, I'll put this in a nutshell. This is my personal brief contact history with Sky Angel:

1) I received IPTV information in the mail. I called as to how this would affect us lifers. He said we won't be lifers anymore. I said how can that be? He said it's going to cost Sky Angel too much to give us IPTV. It's a stream Sky Angel has to pay, and it's too expensive.

2) I left a recorded message with Dominion/Sky Angel saying that I don't want my service turned off. I said the service helped me when I had depression.

3) I sent an email with the same information noted in No. 2 above.

4) I sent a letter through the U.S. Postal Service with the same information noted in No. 2 above.

I never got a response.

I finally got that letter saying that they can't afford to keep giving us lifetime service, etc.

From this point on, my communications with them go out 3 ways: email, physical letter to their office location, and physical letter to their P.O. Box.

I sent a two-page letter saying they can't do this, and it's deceiving (false advertising), etc, etc. I said that I hope they'll get back to me this time.

I got a call from that "Mary" lady. (You can read this post on my previous Cloud88 thread "My current cummunication with Sky Angel".)

I sent in an email and two letters saying that I don't accept their decision and action to turn off my Dominion/Sky Angel service; and if they did turn off my service, they would be breaching their contract with me, and it might constitute fraud. I gave them a month to send me something that says they do not intend to break their contract with me.

At this point, I'm waiting for their response.

I imagine they're having meeting after meeting about this hot topic.

God Bless You All !!

Bye everyone.

#17 OFFLINE   Cloud88

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 08:40 PM

Yep, the term beating a dead horse comes to mind. The satellite is dying and will be replaced in just months according to reports.


The Satellite is NOT DYING. In a nutshell, Sky Angel just wants to save money. How badly they need to save money, or just want to save money, I don't know.

#18 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 10:52 PM

Those were not "free" they were paid for in advance, BIG differnece. We lifetimers made it possible for sky angel to stay in business so you monthly people could have it available, Lifetimers helped skyangel get to the point of switching to iptv. If lifetimers hadn't prepaid skyangel would ave gone under years ago.

But WHERE WERE YOU when SkyAngel was acting in an anti-Christian manner for the past 10 years? Or did you (like other Lifetimers) defend SkyAngel while they were blocking the spread of the gospel and failing to keep their promises?

I'm sorry, but what I pointed out before - lifetimers complaining only now that THEIR skin is in the game - rings true. Lifetimers should have been looking after their "investment" even more ... but most waited until it was too late.

Yes, lifetimers helped get SkyAngel to where it is today (going out of the DBS business). And now it appears lifetimers (at least the verbose ones here) want to help SkyAngel out of business. So what was your purpose in investing in SkyAngel? To help them meet their stated mission of spreading the gospel? Or to get something for yourself?

Those that have looked at their payments as a donation to support the ministry and the goal and have now moved on seem to be in a much healthier position than those who remain bitter and vindictive.

The Satellite is NOT DYING.

Tell me that later this year after EchoStar shuts it off and moves it to another orbital location. E3 is being admitted to the nursing home to die. It may take a couple of years for the last breath to pass ... but at 59% failed, she's dying.

It would have taken SkyAngel hundreds of millions of dollars to replace the satellite ... even if they bought one just capable of covering their eight transponders getting it built and launched isn't trivial.

#19 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 11:01 PM

Cloud88, this is all part of your "current conversation with SkyAngel".
We're not going to have multiple threads on the same issue.

#20 OFFLINE   JeffH

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 01:15 PM

How many of those who continue to make excuses for sky angel are actually lifetime members?

How many LIFETIME member are signed up for iPTV?


I AM and I HAVE.

Does someone want to "teach me a lesson".

Jeff




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