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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Another 1080p/1080i/720p discussion, pulled from D11 thread


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110 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   morgantown

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Posted 13 June 2008 - 05:43 PM

Anyone think that this BSS could ultimately end up in me having to actually look at purchasing a 1080p TV for my DirecTV services? I understand 1080p is not even broadcast in the US as of a few days ago...

Currently I just stick with 720p for DirecTV as I did not think the chance for 1080 would happen on DBS, or the "latest" revelation of BSS (that Tom pointed out over a year ago).
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#2 OFFLINE   tuff bob

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Posted 13 June 2008 - 05:52 PM

Anyone think that this BSS could ultimately end up in me having to actually look at purchasing a 1080p TV for my DirecTV services? I understand 1080p is not even broadcast in the US as of a few days ago...


I doubt it, you're talking about DirecTV halvng their capacity for a marginal picture improvement on panorama stretched HGTV :)

#3 OFFLINE   cartrivision

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 02:55 PM

Anyone think that this BSS could ultimately end up in me having to actually look at purchasing a 1080p TV for my DirecTV services? I understand 1080p is not even broadcast in the US as of a few days ago...

Currently I just stick with 720p for DirecTV as I did not think the chance for 1080 would happen on DBS, or the "latest" revelation of BSS (that Tom pointed out over a year ago).


You already need a 1080p TV now if you want to display the full resolution of 95% of DirecTV's HD channels (which are broadcast in 1080i). With a 720p set, you are only displaying half of the pixels of resolution that are present in DirecTV’s 1080i broadcasts.

As for 1080p broadcasts, the improvement that 1080p offers over 1080i is so marginal, that the doubling of bandwidth that would be required to broadcast 1080p makes such broadcasts from DirecTV very unlikely.

#4 OFFLINE   rotomike

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 05:53 PM

You already need a 1080p TV now if you want to display the full resolution of 95% of DirecTV's HD channels (which are broadcast in 1080i). With a 720p set, you are only displaying half of the pixels of resolution that are present in DirecTV’s 1080i broadcasts.

As for 1080p broadcasts, the improvement that 1080p offers over 1080i is so marginal, that the doubling of bandwidth that would be required to broadcast 1080p makes such broadcasts from DirecTV very unlikely.


Lots of DTV channels are broadcast in 720P and 720P is considered to be better by many then 1080i especially with motion. A 720P set will display satellite signal as good as a 1080p in my opinion. I install HD tv's and hi-def Dish and HD Direct all the time and many 1080p sets look horrible in my opinion. Cant beat a Panasonic plasma for the price and even the 720 Panasonics look as good as the 1080ps. I think thats a misleading statement that you "need a 1080p tv or your only seeing half the pixels of resolution" It makes it look like you need a 1080p set but that is wrong. My 720 Panny looks as good or better then any other 1080p set i have installed. Just wanted any readers out there to not run out and waste money on a 1080P set unless you have blu-ray or video games in 1080p. Satellite is either 1080i or 720p.

mike

#5 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 05:55 PM

"Satellite is either 1080i or 720p" - just today !

Tell me what was on your TV from DTV/Dish 4 years ago ? Did you dreamed that time about HD from sat Co ?

#6 OFFLINE   curt8403

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 06:16 PM

I am in need of education. My understanding of 1080i vs 1080p was that they both required the same basic number of bits of data for a given picture quality but the difference was in how they were "painted" on screen. 1080i had two frames containing 540 lines each (one odd lines and one even lines) that were displayed in an alternating fashion. 1080p had one frame containing 1080 lines that are displayed simultaneously. 2X540=1X1080=same amount of data/bandwidth. Yes? No?


has to do with the number of lines per second. I has half the lines of P because it only uses 540 per sweep, and both us the same number of sweeps per second. P uses 1080 lines per sweep/
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#7 OFFLINE   Dolly

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 07:22 PM

Well I hope there doesn't start to be lots of broadcasting in 1080p. All this high tech stuff no matter what I do it is wrong. I got my HD TV last year 1080i. And then this year I see HD TVs in Ads saying 1080p. I can't win :rolleyes:

#8 OFFLINE   curt8403

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 07:24 PM

Well I hope there doesn't start to be lots of broadcasting in 1080p. All this high tech stuff no matter what I do it is wrong. I got my HD TV last year 1080i. And then this year I see HD TVs in Ads saying 1080p. I can't win :rolleyes:



worry Not. 1080I is still gonna be really really good. 1080P currently is DVD only as near as I can remember
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#9 OFFLINE   Michael D'Angelo

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 07:24 PM

Well I hope there doesn't start to be lots of broadcasting in 1080p. All this high tech stuff no matter what I do it is wrong. I got my HD TV last year 1080i. And then this year I see HD TVs in Ads saying 1080p. I can't win :rolleyes:


The only thing you will see in 1080p for a long time is Blu-ray and HD DVD. If we ever see TV broadcast done in 1080p it will be a long time down the road and I doubt we ever see it.

#10 OFFLINE   bluemoon737

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 07:45 PM

The only thing you will see in 1080p for a long time is Blu-ray and HD DVD. If we ever see TV broadcast done in 1080p it will be a long time down the road and I doubt we ever see it.



I wouldn't be too sure about that (remember the original "leaked" photos of the HR21 Pro that clearly showed a 1080P indicating light), the bandwidth required to broadcast 1080/24P is pretty much the same as 1080/60i so I would not be too surprised to see PPV movies broadcast in 1080/24P...just me speculating of course...
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#11 OFFLINE   Ed Campbell

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 08:43 PM

I wouldn't be too sure about that (remember the original "leaked" photos of the HR21 Pro that clearly showed a 1080P indicating light), the bandwidth required to broadcast 1080/24P is pretty much the same as 1080/60i so I would not be too surprised to see PPV movies broadcast in 1080/24P...just me speculating of course...


The main reason I moved to 1080p last autumn was that I was already downloading the occasional tech piece from the Web that was produced in 1080p.

True, like many, I don't perceive any special difference between 1080i and p - though I wouldn't include 720p in that statement. Still, it's nice to have that capability.

#12 OFFLINE   Jeremy W

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 09:29 PM

The only thing you will see in 1080p for a long time is Blu-ray and HD DVD.

Also video games. Basically, anything that isn't broadcast.

#13 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 09:38 PM

1080p is not likely in the near future for D11 or DIRECTV. So... :)

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#14 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 09:52 PM

1080p is not likely in the near future for D11 or DIRECTV. So... :)


Tom, you should reconsider that, if you'll count how many years ago wasn't any 720p or 1080i content at DTV or DIsh. So ? :)

#15 OFFLINE   Jeremy W

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 09:58 PM

Tom, you should reconsider that, if you'll count how many years ago wasn't any 720p or 1080i content at DTV or DIsh. So ? :)

Yeah, that would be like 7 or 8 years ago. He said "near future" which means 1-2 years at the very most. And we won't see any 1080p broadcast channels in that timeframe, so Tom is correct.

#16 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 10:39 PM

Tom, you should reconsider that, if you'll count how many years ago wasn't any 720p or 1080i content at DTV or DIsh. So ? :)

Yeah, that would be like 7 or 8 years ago. He said "near future" which means 1-2 years at the very most. And we won't see any 1080p broadcast channels in that timeframe, so Tom is correct.


And 10 years ago it was in the books, well planned for broadcast and cable alike. 1080p is not.

So now I'll spell it out: lets go back to topic for D11 please. :backtotop

Thanks,
Tom

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#17 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 11:25 PM

Lots of DTV channels are broadcast in 720P and 720P is considered to be better by many then 1080i especially with motion.

You might think that, but take a look at any place where NFL football PQ is discussed and the leader in most discussions is CBS who is offering a 1080i signal.

'nuff said.

#18 OFFLINE   Paul A

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 12:32 AM

I'll take every program, every station, 24/7/365 broadcast in 1080i with a decent quality transfer WAY before I would take only some channels broadcast in 1080P.

If a movie is really special, I'll purchase it on blu-ray.

So, D11, are we there yet??? I can't wait unitil August!!!

#19 OFFLINE   man_rob

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 06:34 AM

You might think that, but take a look at any place where NFL football PQ is discussed and the leader in most discussions is CBS who is offering a 1080i signal.

'nuff said.


Well, not quite "nuff said." Maybe we should look at an actual source that is a bit less arbitrary.

From CNET:

...There are two main HD resolutions in use today by HD broadcasters and other sources: 1080i and 720p. One is not necessarily better than the other; 1080i has more lines and pixels, but 720p is a progressive-scan format that should deliver a smoother image that stays sharper during motion...

...Despite the obvious difference in pixel count, 720p and 1080i both look great. In fact, unless you have a very large television and excellent source material, you'll have a hard time telling the difference between any of the HDTV resolutions. It's especially difficult to tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p sources...

...once you get to high-def, the difference between resolutions becomes much more difficult to appreciate. We've done side-by-side tests between two 46-inch LCD HDTVs, one with 1366x768 resolution and the other with 1080p resolution, using the same 1080i source material, and it was extremely difficult for us to see any difference...

http://www.cnet.com/...html?tag=feat.5


Not to mention, on DirecTV's mpeg4 channels, they just pass along the resolutions they get.

As for the subject at hand. I wouldn't be surprised if DirecTV started a few new HD channels in July and/or Aug. September will probably be a bigger bang, so to speak, as more HD networks will probably come on line.

#20 OFFLINE   ziltomil

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 07:52 AM

"1080i has more lines and pixels, but 720p is a progressive-scan format that should deliver a smoother image that stays sharper during motion..."

Too bad should doesn't always work out. I've seen ATSC documentation showing 1080i offers a sharper picture during motion than 720p can.

http://www.atsc.org/...ts/tsreport.pdf

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Anyway, how would Directv integrate this BSS technology into their current plans and hardware?

#21 OFFLINE   dewey

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 07:57 AM

Just as a curious side point... last night I was thinking about the moon and its effect on the earth (tides, etc.) and wondered just how much does it affect the orbit of a satellite such as D11. Getting online this morning, I did a quick search of this thread and saw a few comments that refer to this, but I didn't find anything that says how much of an effect it is.
Is this something that needs to be routinely corrected every 28 or 14 days, or are DBS allowed to drift because of lunar and other gravitational forces, drag, solar wind(?), and other cumulative errors until such time that a correction has to be made? Perhaps these effects are so small that there are no routine adjustments and they're just done as needed.
Are there actually rules that define how far a satellite may drift before the FCC step in with a warning, or does it never even come close to that - presumably because there would simply be a customer outcry due to poor reception before that would occur?
Hey guys - once again, as with D10, this thread is a fascinating read - many thanks to the people that really take the time explaining this (we all know who they are!).



What does this question have to do with 780p vs. 1080i resolution? Stay on topic! ;)
Seriously, I was hoping for an informed response to this question. thx
HD Hockey Nut

#22 OFFLINE   man_rob

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 08:03 AM

"1080i has more lines and pixels, but 720p is a progressive-scan format that should deliver a smoother image that stays sharper during motion..."

Too bad should doesn't always work out. I've seen ATSC documentation showing 1080i offers a sharper picture during motion than 720p can.

http://www.atsc.org/...ts/tsreport.pdf

________________________________
Anyway, how would Directv integrate this BSS technology into their current plans and hardware?



From the report to which you linked:

The 720P mode showed no artifacts in tests for motion-compensated overload with horizontal, vertical, or diagonal motion up to 0.8 picture heights per second. The 1080I mode showed no artifacts for horizontal motion, but did show increasing quantization noise and blockiness for vertical and diagonal motion.



I believe that the BSS technology would be used for broadband services, perhaps replacing land lines for on demand services?

#23 OFFLINE   gregjones

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 08:24 AM

Start yet another thread for the 720p/1080i diatribe. There are at least 10 lingering out there. Please do not dillute this thread further with a discussion that has been ongoing for years.


Back on topic, I still wonder if the actual (re-)release date for EncoreHD will be a signal for the first use of D11. I don't recall seeing a date more specific than July for this launch. It would be a bit odd for DirecTV not to be the first to carry it, since it is a Malone channel.

#24 OFFLINE   cartrivision

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 12:22 PM

Lots of DTV channels are broadcast in 720P and 720P is considered to be better by many then 1080i especially with motion. A 720P set will display satellite signal as good as a 1080p in my opinion.


Actually, when you display a 1080i signal on a 720p set you only have half the pixels of resolution compared to what you would see on a 1080p set. That might be good enough for you in your opinion, but it's not as good as displaying it on a 1080p set since displaying a 1080i signal on a 720p set yields a significantly lower resolution picture.


I think thats a misleading statement that you "need a 1080p tv or your only seeing half the pixels of resolution" It makes it look like you need a 1080p set but that is wrong.


There is nothing misleading whatsoever about that statement. It is an absolute fact. A 720p set displays half the pixels of resolution that you would see on a 1080i set when watching a 1080i signal.

#25 OFFLINE   LameLefty

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 12:39 PM

STOP THE 1080i v. 720p DEBATE. PLEASE TAKE IT TO PMs!!!

Geez, you've already been asked obliquely and then again DIRECTLY by a Moderator! What more do you need? :rolleyes:

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