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Another 1080p/1080i/720p discussion, pulled from D11 thread


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110 replies to this topic

#101 OFFLINE   mechman

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 07:49 AM

I've really only seen one this size, but what struck me the most were the lines/dot sizes were HUGH, which is the opposite "quality" I was describing in the post before this.


I would categorize the change from my first projector (720P Mitsubishi HC3000U) to my second projector (1080p BenQ W5000) as noticeable. But only in a very subtle way. I could never see a pixel on my 720p pj unless I was right on top of the screen.

If my math is correct there are roughly 15 lines per inch vertically for 720p on a 100" screen. I have a tough enough time seeing a sixteenth of an inch when in the workshop, let alone on my display. 1080p would add ~7 more lines of resolution.

On your 46" set, there is roughly 47 lines per inch vertically. I really d on't think you could see those without help. And your 32" 720p display has almost the same amount of lines as the 46" - ~45.

If you were to have a 175" screen the viewing height would be 90". With that setup, the 720p lines would be ~1/8". That would probably be noticeable for some folks within 6 feet or so.

Again, assuming my math is correct. :grin:

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#102 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:33 AM

I would categorize the change from my first projector (720P Mitsubishi HC3000U) to my second projector (1080p BenQ W5000) as noticeable. But only in a very subtle way. I could never see a pixel on my 720p pj unless I was right on top of the screen.

If my math is correct there are roughly 15 lines per inch vertically for 720p on a 100" screen. I have a tough enough time seeing a sixteenth of an inch when in the workshop, let alone on my display. 1080p would add ~7 more lines of resolution.

On your 46" set, there is roughly 47 lines per inch vertically. I really d on't think you could see those without help. And your 32" 720p display has almost the same amount of lines as the 46" - ~45.

If you were to have a 175" screen the viewing height would be 90". With that setup, the 720p lines would be ~1/8". That would probably be noticeable for some folks within 6 feet or so.

Again, assuming my math is correct. :grin:

Your math maybe, and it's hard for me to explain the quality of the image that I'm trying to.
I first saw it in the 70s on a very small [5"?] Sony color TV. The CRT didn't show "dots", which all TVs had. Now I sure didn't want to watch a TV that small, so my color TVs grew over time from 17" to 27", and then the move to HD with a 51" 1080 RPTV. I wasn't very happy with this RPTV, as "the dots" were more like blotches of blurry color. This was the same time I got the HDTV tuner card and really noticed the difference in PQ on the monitor, which reminded me of that small Sony long ago.
I checked out your link, and frankly expected to disagree with what I saw in the chart, but after using the calculator and plugging in the sizes, distances, and resolutions, from "those that have had this quality", I can't really disagree. "For me", I'd tend to use the chart as a "not to exceed", in that one wouldn't want to be to detect the difference.
We all have different viewing preferences, so this isn't in any way meant to degrade what you have and seem to be happy with.
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#103 OFFLINE   fjames

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 09:11 AM

The Bale article was one of the few I've seen that pointed out the obvious - current HDTV standards just happen to coincide perfectly with minimum distance in terms of viewing angle. That's where I sit (plus a few inches for room use) and it's wonderful. What's interesting is if you could push a magic button and have 4K, and you're already sitting at the minimum angle distance, you couldn't get any closer really. I'm 80" from a 1080, 64" plasma for the record.

It amazes me continually how people discuss picture quality while sitting several feet farther than they should if PQ is a priority. Of course, they don't suffer from poor basic technical issues or SD like I do either :)

#104 OFFLINE   banditt76

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 09:19 AM

Picture quality actually increases the further away you are from a larger screen TV, assuming HD of course. About 10 feet from my 47" LCD is optimal viewing distance for best picture quality regardless of if it's HD or SD, for me at least. A lot probably has to do with your own vision too. I have great vision, sometimes it's a burden cause I notice every little artifact if I sit too close.

#105 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 12:15 PM

First off PQ never changes when looking at the same set. Distance only allows you to perceive it based on your eyesight and other variables. The pixels and colors themselves don't get any more clear or distorted. Your perception of them does.

Secondly changing from a 720 item to a 1080 item will look better mainly due to the difference in technology at the level you're buying. If you're buying professional grade equipment that is properly calibrated you really won't see a huge differences unless it's something you've been trained to do.

There have been many surveys done around this and every time it's come down to calibration or other factors that make people think something is clearer than actual resolution.
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#106 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 12:25 PM

There have been many surveys done around this and every time it's come down to calibration or other factors that make people think something is clearer than actual resolution.

This part I don't agree with. Once the viewer "is trained" to see the dot/pixel size, it can't be mistaken, or calibrated out.
"Survey says", most viewers don't know what they're looking at.
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#107 OFFLINE   banditt76

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:23 PM

This part I don't agree with. Once the viewer "is trained" to see the dot/pixel size, it can't be mistaken, or calibrated out.
"Survey says", most viewers don't know what they're looking at.


Calibration used to be a prolbem with DLP and projection TVs, but not so much with LCDs. I had an old Samsung digital projection HDTV that was always out of calibration, even after I just adjusted it. It was from 2001 and died a couple years ago.

#108 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:27 PM

Calibration used to be a prolbem with DLP and projection TVs, but not so much with LCDs. I had an old Samsung digital projection HDTV that was always out of calibration, even after I just adjusted it. It was from 2001 and died a couple years ago.

I wasn't trying to say calibration isn't important, but that it can't change the pixel/dot size of flat panels.
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#109 OFFLINE   banditt76

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:54 PM

I wasn't trying to say calibration isn't important, but that it can't change the pixel/dot size of flat panels.


I wasn't saying you were. I was just pointing out that it really doesn't have anything to do with LCD picture quality anymore. I guess I should have quoted the previous post, not yours.

#110 ONLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 10:46 AM

Picture quality actually increases the further away you are from a larger screen TV, assuming HD of course. About 10 feet from my 47" LCD is optimal viewing distance for best picture quality regardless of if it's HD or SD, for me at least. A lot probably has to do with your own vision too. I have great vision, sometimes it's a burden cause I notice every little artifact if I sit too close.


Perceived PQ improves the further one is away from any size monitor, HD or SD! It's just more noticeable the larger the screen.

I prefer 8' from a 58" plasma, underscoring that personal preferences are what rules.
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#111 OFFLINE   Carl Spock

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 01:44 PM

^ You and me, Laxguy. I'm 7' away from my 50" plasma and that is about right for me. It still makes it a "big screen".

I'm far enough away that the pixel detection issues in this thread are not a factor but close enough so that the video is impactful.
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