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Sixto Report-D12 Status: Pre-Launch


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#51 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 02:23 PM

Depends on how they rework the stack plan


By “stack plan” I assume you mean the "stacking" of the LNB down-frequency bands.

But how can you actually rework the current 13V/18V or + 22KHz controlled Ka-lo 250-750 MHz (R/LHCP); Ku 950-1450 MHz (R/LHCP); and Ka-hi 1650-2150 MHz (R/LHCP), stack plan with the present subscriber reception gear? :confused:

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#52 OFFLINE   evan_s

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 02:31 PM

I just don’t see how D12 is going to fit into the mix as presently configured. As other than an in orbit spare. Or maybe contribute more spotbeams. Since all the Ka B-band CONUS transponder frequencies are pretty much filled already at both 99 and the 103 slots by D10 and D11. And the 101/110/119 slots are out of the question.

Therefore the advertised increase to 200 national HD channels with the future launch and deployment of D12 cannot be correct with the current receiving equipment. :nono2:


Assuming they launch D12 still configured like D10 and D11 with only KA low transmission capabilities I expect they will end up playing around with the conus and spot allocations. Currently the spot patterns for the the Ka spots seems to be pretty loose with many people seeing lots of 0's.

Lets say they put d12 at 99. They bump the total conus transponders there from 14 to 18. Half from each d11 and d12. They tighten up the spot patterns from 99s to add more spots to both increase total spot capacity and to move some spots back off D10. D10 fires up more conus transponders from 103c. Net effect of more conus and spot capacity. Yeah it would be simpler if they had a nice empty spot to put it in like d11 at 99 but a single sat at each location isn't enough to fill the entire 500mhz ka lo band especially with quite a few channels to use for spots. DirecTV has 4 sats at 101 to fill that slot up. They've already shown they can fire up extra conus transponders with d10 running 16 instead of 14.

The other possibility is a small? retrofit to d12 to use ka hi instead of ka lo. Ka hi at each slot currently only has spaceway 1 and 2 which use no conus transponders and have the advantage of using the phased arrays so are very flexible to be reconfigured while in orbit.

Either way I'm sure DirecTV is already planning this out or they wouldn't be going through everything to launch D12.

Personally I suspect the first is more likely since they are only stating an additional 50 channels from d12 compared to the 75 d10 and d11 have been providing basically. Either way they do it they won't need to do anything with the stack plan. The only reason they would need to redo the stack plan would be if they where receiving another 500mhz block like Ka lo from 101 but as far as we can tell our LNBs couldn't receive that and its actually already in use for backhalling by DirecTV.

#53 OFFLINE   Dolly

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 02:34 PM

Late in 2009 and we already have 3 pages :eek2: Nothing like an early start :D

#54 OFFLINE   tkrandall

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 02:39 PM

So the fleet of BSS birds will be RB-#?

Do we have all the orbital locations for what I would assume to be RB1-RB5?


I would like to know this as well, as anything west of 99/101/103 or so will be a problem for me, at least with a single dish installation.

Man, just when I think I am "out of the woods" and will only need 99/101/103 from here on, I get this news about these BSS satellites and their to be at 107w and 119w.

Any speculation of what specific services DTV intends to use these for?

#55 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 02:40 PM

I would like to be the first in this 200 page (at the very least) thread to ask the following:

1) When will it go live? (My guess is Wednesday February 15, 2010)

2) Will this mean less 'compression' on my 175 HD channels?

3) Do you think Fox News HD will be re-mapped?

4) Sixto - what the hell is a TLE?

Thanks in advance..........

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Welcome.

1. Hopefully will go "live" late 2009. Most likely 60-90 days after launch. No idea yet of launch date or launch provider.

2. D12 will add capacity for at least an additional 50 HD channels. The additional bandwidth most likely will not effect "compression" but it all depends on the bandwidth requirements in late 2009.

3. Best guess is that Fox News HD will be "live" very soon. I'm guessing 8/14 but nothing has been announced.

4) TLE description is in post#1.
DirecTV: Genie HR44, H25, CCK, GenioGo, SWiM-16 & SWiM-8, DECA to Gigabit Switch with FiOS (75/75)
FiOS: Roamio Pro's (2), Roamio Plus, Mini's (4) with Ultimate HD (My Roamio Thoughts)

#56 OFFLINE   Athlon646464

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 03:26 PM

Welcome.


Ha! :P

Thanks Sixto..........

......... but

(My post was meant to be tongue in cheek ;) )

I read the whole D11 thread as it happened, and thought I'd get that stuff out of the way before you were inundated with it again (I knew the answers).

:rolleyes:

1 HR34-700, 1 C31-700, 1 C41W-100, 1 WVBR0-01, 1 HR24-500

Original install on Apr. 20, 2008 - C41W & WVB self installed on Dec. 27, 2014 - HR34 & C31 installed on Aug. 24, 2013 - HR24 installed on July 23, 2010

Press any key to continue, or any other key to cancel.


#57 OFFLINE   Sirshagg

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 03:35 PM

Posted Image

#58 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 04:22 PM

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Yes, this can be officially described as "Not Soon!" :lol:
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All comments are my own. Unless specifically stated, my views do NOT represent the views of DIRECTV

#59 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 04:23 PM

Posted Image

You're an animal.... :D :lol: :lol: :lol:
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#60 OFFLINE   curt8403

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 04:34 PM

Yes, this can be officially described as "Not Soon!" :lol:


or MonSoon?
I am no longer connected with Directv or any other satellite provider

#61 OFFLINE   wearsch

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 05:33 PM

Posted Image


So I guess you're saying it's too early to start checking the "Channels I Get" list at 5am CST on Wednesdays/Thursdays?

#62 OFFLINE   curt8403

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 05:36 PM

So I guess you're saying it's too early to start checking the "Channels I Get" list at 5am CST on Wednesdays/Thursdays?


yes, for at least 1 year
:sure:
I am no longer connected with Directv or any other satellite provider

#63 OFFLINE   houskamp

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 05:39 PM

Are we there yet??? :grin:

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MRV was all that's left on my wishlist (wishlist done) :D


#64 OFFLINE   curt8403

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 05:40 PM

Are we there yet??? :grin:


for D11, we are there, for D12, Stop buggin yer pop, and let him concentrate on drivin.
I am no longer connected with Directv or any other satellite provider

#65 OFFLINE   syphix

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 05:44 PM

Stop buggin yer pop, and let him concentrate on drivin.

If you kids don't stop it...and I mean NOW....we'll turn this satellite around and go right back home!!!


:D
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#66 OFFLINE   TheRatPatrol

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 08:30 PM

Personally I suspect the first is more likely since they are only stating an additional 50 channels from d12 compared to the 75 d10 and d11 have been providing basically. Either way they do it they won't need to do anything with the stack plan. The only reason they would need to redo the stack plan would be if they where receiving another 500mhz block like Ka lo from 101 but as far as we can tell our LNBs couldn't receive that and its actually already in use for backhalling by DirecTV.

A few questions

1. What exactly is the stack plan? (parking alignment for the sats?)

2. Would a new LNB to receive Ka at 101 help?

3. If D12 is the same as D10 and D11, why only 50 national HD channels and not 75?

4. What are they backhauling at 101?

Thanks :)

#67 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 08:48 PM

Are we there yet??? :grin:

What are the odds...I just saw that annoying commercial for Universal Studios with the Simpsons - Bart and Lisa were in the back seat asking......

"Are we There Yet"...over and over........almost the same time you posted..... :D

Hmmmmmmm.
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#68 OFFLINE   Ernie

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 08:54 PM

So the fleet of BSS birds will be RB-#?

Do we have all the orbital locations for what I would assume to be RB1-RB5?


The requested locations are at:
RB-1 at 99°
RB-2 at 103°
RB-3 at 107°
RB-4 at 111°
RB-5 at 119°

As far as I can tell the FCC hasn't approved the requests. Possibly because DIRECTV has already changed their minds. Originally they had birds at 96.5° W.L., 101° W.L., and 105.5°

Of course, by the time they are approved, the birds are put out for bid, the contracts made, the birds get built, and a launch date opens up, it may be a while before we see any new channels. So, I wouldn't make any hasty plans around their arrival.

Ernie

#69 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 09:05 PM

A few questions

1. What exactly is the stack plan? (parking alignment for the sats?)

2. Would a new LNB to receive Ka at 101 help?

3. If D12 is the same as D10 and D11, why only 50 national HD channels and not 75?

4. What are they backhauling at 101?

Thanks :)


The Stack Plan is how the blocks of 500MHz bandwidth are "stacked" onto a coax infrastructure that might be only rated to slightly over 2GHz.

DIRECTV stacks 3 500MHz blocks onto the coax: 250-750MHz, 950-1450MHz, and 1650-2150MHz.

And there are 4 selections a receiver can make: 13V with no tone, 18V with no tone (the 101 and 99 orbital slots) 13V with 22KHz signal tone, and 18V with tone (the 110/119/103 slots). The KU sats: 101, 110, and 119 are in the middle "stack", 950-1450MHz. Ka are above and below.

FYI: OTA and cable are roughly 50MHz thru 900MHz.

So where would DIRECTV put Ka at 101? All the stack plans are currenly full as we know it. My only guess is above the rest and be at 2350-2850MHz, meaning the entire infrastructure must be rated at 3GHz.

Then comes BSS...

So 2) new LNB is required. Some home setups might also need new cable that supports 3GHz. Or something else.

3) D12 might be also some redundancy capacity. D12 won't be going at 101 as we would have heard about a new LNB/stackplan/etc long ago. :) Clearly DIRECTV has some sneaky trick up there sleeve to more fully use the bandwidth at 99 and 103... :)

4) At 101, DIRECTV is mostly backhauling locals as far as I know. I think all the networks themselves they get via fibre or other satellite feeds.

Cheers,
Tom

Go Packers!

My real treasures: 5 Grandchildren - S, D, M, M, C ; Now 5! Great-Grandtibbers - B, H, J, A, and M (Born 7/31/2011)


#70 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 09:08 PM

At 101, DIRECTV is mostly backhauling locals as far as I know. I think all the networks themselves they get via fibre or other satellite feeds.

I'm suddenly getting this vision of a guy with a hairnet standing in front of a green tarped large object behind him....again........ :D
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#71 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 09:11 PM

The requested locations are at:
RB-1 at 99°
RB-2 at 103°
RB-3 at 107°
RB-4 at 111°
RB-5 at 119°

As far as I can tell the FCC hasn't approved the requests. Possibly because DIRECTV has already changed their minds. Originally they had birds at 96.5° W.L., 101° W.L., and 105.5°

Of course, by the time they are approved, the birds are put out for bid, the contracts made, the birds get built, and a launch date opens up, it may be a while before we see any new channels. So, I wouldn't make any hasty plans around their arrival.

Ernie

Part of the apparent "mind changing" is the FCC has settled on the locations and spacing for BSS satellites--which was a change from the original "estimated" locations when these were first filed many years ago. All the original filers were given an opportunity to re-file without penalty to correct to the new spacing.

Cheers,
Tom

Go Packers!

My real treasures: 5 Grandchildren - S, D, M, M, C ; Now 5! Great-Grandtibbers - B, H, J, A, and M (Born 7/31/2011)


#72 OFFLINE   spartanstew

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 09:24 PM

Late in 2009 and we already have 3 pages :eek2: Nothing like an early start :D


No S***.


Since I probably won't be visiting this thread again for quite awhile, I'd just like to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving, Merry Christmas, and a Fabulous Fourth of July.

I'm sure Directv can't wait to get their hands on your unit.

 
Directv customer since 2000

#73 OFFLINE   evan_s

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 09:29 PM

A few questions

1. What exactly is the stack plan? (parking alignment for the sats?)


The sats are so close together, relatively speaking, that as far as the dish is concerned it can't tell the difference.

No the stacking plan is how the signal gets from the dish to your receiver(s). There a couple of basic signals used by the receiver to tell the dish which signal(s) it wants. It start off just sending 13v or 18v to pick between the 2 polarities of the signal which also corresponds to even or odd transponders.

Then when they started using 110/119 they needed an additional signal so they used a 22khz tone and 13/18v to select between the even and odds there. 110 & 119 are combined together at the dish because even together they don't fill up one block entirely.

When they started doing the Ka sats rather than adding more signals they decided to stack more signals on each combination. The Ka actually have 2 blocks at each orbital location so needed 2 slots in the stacking plan. The ka hi and ka lo from 99 are sent the same time as the 101 signal and the ones from 103 are sent the same time as 110/119.

This is also where the bbc comes in. The receiver can't directly tune the ka lo in the stack plan so it activates the bbc when it needs that part and the bbc switches it up to the ka hi portion replacing the ka hi.

The image shows the stack plan as listed in the WB68 manual.

http://www.dbstalk.c...=1&d=1215661918

2. Would a new LNB to receive Ka at 101 help?

A new LNB could allow us to receive KA at 101 yes. I don't think they will take that route however. It would require a new lnb which means new hardware and an install scheduled for every customer that has a current hd install. Because of the specifics it would also mean swapping out every old at9 sidecar dish to do it realistically. That's a lot of costs to eat.

3. If D12 is the same as D10 and D11, why only 50 national HD channels and not 75?

My guess for that is it a combination of factors.
1) 200 hd channels is a lot of national channels and by using less capacity for National HD channels they can use more spot beams to provide more Locals to markets they don't have them and add missing local channels in other markets.

2) limits on how much bandwidth they have to use at one slot as national channels. Since d10 and d11 and probably d12 are configured just for ka lo they only have 1 500mhz block to work with. Currently d10 is running 16 transponders but was originally planned for 14 and d11 is running 14. 14 transponders at the size DirecTV is running them ends up using a little over half the bandwidth in the 500mhz ka lo slot. 24 would be the max possible.

Currently we expect once thing settle down we'll have 28 transponders worth of HD channels coming from d10 and d11 for national content. If we had a completely empty orbital slot for d12 we would expect another 14 transponders worth ending up at a total of 42 but we won't be able to do that. When d12 launches I expect some shuffling around of things.

For example D12 ends up at 99. D11 and D12 at 99 running a total of 18 or 20 conus transponders with 4 or 6 left to use for lots of spot running from both sats. (spots can reuse the same transponder frequency because they aim at different areas and don't interfere with each other). D10 running at 103 will then turn off some of it's spot capacity moving those locals to 99 and fire up more conus transponders and be back up 16-18 by it's self.

Net total is 34-38 conus transponders which puts us right around 200 total hd channels with a lot more spots total with more of them coming from 99 than 103. A little shuffling and they get plenty of use from d12 with out a reconfigure and can later in life shuffle things around more to cover failures. It also maximizes their install base of receivers.

If you are interested in more details toms got a great post at http://www.dbstalk.c...ead.php?t=82295

4. What are they backhauling at 101?

Thanks :)


Backhauling is a pretty simple idea. DirecTV gets tv signals from all over the us to gather up the locals and from who knows where when dealing with the premium channels and needs to get all of it back to it's uplink centers where it does what ever it needs to and sends them up to the sats to be beamed down to us. It has to get those signals there some how so it uses sats for that process. Backhauling also gets used by other things like news channels. It's how the signal gets from those live reporters back to the studio using a truck with a dish on it.


Edit

I see tom snuck in with a shorter quicker response already but I typed it up so I'll leave it here =)

#74 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 09:48 PM

Since I probably won't be visiting this thread again for quite awhile, I'd just like to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving, Merry Christmas, and a Fabulous Fourth of July.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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#75 OFFLINE   tkrandall

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 09:48 PM

The requested locations are at:
RB-1 at 99°
RB-2 at 103°
RB-3 at 107°
RB-4 at 111°
RB-5 at 119°

Ernie


I can't imagine what a combined Ku+Ka+BSS (with 5 slots) dish would look like.




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