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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Best place to buy bundled cabling (2 cat6/2 quad shielded coax)...or not even buy it?


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19 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   pdawg17

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 07:50 PM

1) Anywhere with good prices and quick ship?

2) My contractor will be running the drops, etc so am I actually saving money (cable itself and labor costs) with the bundled cabling or would I be better off having him run each separately? One of the cat lines will be for phone use so if run separately it would be 2 coax, 1 cat6 and 1 cat5e...bundled would be 2 cat6 and 2 coax...
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#2 OFFLINE   Grentz

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 09:15 PM

So you want the dual cabling?

In all honesty it just depends on the prices, there really is no advantage as an end user to either one, as an installer the dual wire stuff is nice as it is 1 wire to run vs 2, but in most cases it is not a big deal as you just pull all the wires in a bunch anyways.
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#3 OFFLINE   brant

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 11:55 PM

as a contractor myself, i've found no cost savings in using 'banana peel' style cabling. its much more expensive. i have several spools/boxes of each type of cable and they all get pulled at once, just like the bundled type. you would only see a labor savings if your contractor was pulling one run at a time. did you check the contractor's cable price? even after markup, i can sell it to my customers for up to 30% less than they'd pay at a big box store or internet, unless they happen to buy in bulk also. i prefer to work with single cables anyway in case some type of damage occurs.

#4 OFFLINE   Mike500

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 06:48 AM

This stuff might be good for NEW work. But, it's large bundle and inflexibility would be tough to install for OLD work.

The installer might even charge more to install it for OLD work. I know that I would.

#5 OFFLINE   pdawg17

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 09:01 AM

This stuff might be good for NEW work. But, it's large bundle and inflexibility would be tough to install for OLD work.

The installer might even charge more to install it for OLD work. I know that I would.


This is definitely for new work...he is actually the one who wants to use the bundled stuff as he already has a few spools of it...problem is he only has 2 coax/2 cat5e and I want a cat6 for data....so it's either cat6 for phone (overkill) or they don't use the bundle and do them "separately"...
Panny 9UK
HR22-100 (Component)
Pio VSX-1018

Panny TC-P42X1
HR20-700 (HDMI)

Hackintosh box: Intel i5 2500k, 8gb ram, Radeon 5770, ML 10.8.2

HTPC: Intel Quad Core Q9550, 4gb ram, Nvidia 660Ti 2GB using HDMI to above Panny 9UK, Windows 8 x64

All hard-wired to D-link DIR-655 router

#6 OFFLINE   carl6

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 09:05 AM

The biggest concern I would have with the cable he already has is the coax is probably copper clad steel, and not solid copper core.

As to cat 6 for phone - it won't hurt anything. Everything in my house is wired cat 5e (voice and data) - any jack can serve either purpose.

Carl

#7 OFFLINE   Mike500

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 09:57 AM

This is definitely for new work...he is actually the one who wants to use the bundled stuff as he already has a few spools of it...problem is he only has 2 coax/2 cat5e and I want a cat6 for data....so it's either cat6 for phone (overkill) or they don't use the bundle and do them "separately"...


That's the reason that I NEVER use bundled cable....

I always set up the system in a way that I can always come back and easily remove and put in new cables with ease.

I call this the open work method.

Remove a few plates and a few access covers, and you can pull out the old obselete stuff and pull in new upgrades.

You'll never know what the industry develops in the future.

#8 OFFLINE   pdawg17

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 10:23 AM

Should I make sure the installer keeps each cable separate from each other inside the conduit or do they typically need to "twisty" them together?
Panny 9UK
HR22-100 (Component)
Pio VSX-1018

Panny TC-P42X1
HR20-700 (HDMI)

Hackintosh box: Intel i5 2500k, 8gb ram, Radeon 5770, ML 10.8.2

HTPC: Intel Quad Core Q9550, 4gb ram, Nvidia 660Ti 2GB using HDMI to above Panny 9UK, Windows 8 x64

All hard-wired to D-link DIR-655 router

#9 OFFLINE   Mike500

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 10:43 AM

Here is the basic design of the OPEN WORK METHOD.

Run each wire separate and straight.

Do not twist tie any of the wires together inside a wall cavity. Do not staple to the studs or any wood inside the wall cavity.

Do not use any conduit.

All holes through the wooden top, bottom and floor plates should be two or 2-9/16 inches in diameter. One side of the wall stud usually has the "new work" line voltage box nailed to it. Run the low voltage cables down the other side of the stud.

Cables can be fastened and bundled in locations outside of enclosed cavities, so that they can be unfastened and unbundled, and easily removed and replaced.

The top of holes can be covered by cutting pieces of galvanized steel flashing and folding one edge. Place this folded, while clamping the cables to the edge of the hole bored through the wood. Fasten down to the sides of the hole with 1/4 drive hex washered sheet metal screws. Make sure that this plate is accasable from outside the enclosed wall cavity after the house is completed. This will allow the install to meet code.

Cut the back off of the "new work box" where you will eventually have access to the cables. Have the installer staple a wire tie, wrapped and bundle the cables to the stud, so that cutting the wire tie will let you release all of the cables.

If going two or more floors, install a removed back "new work box" at the same level as the other outlet boxes over the cables coming down the wall next to the stud. You can install a blank plate over this frame. Removing two screws on the blank plate will allow easy access to the cables for pulling.

#10 OFFLINE   BattleZone

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 01:44 PM

Mike500 appears to be a wise and experienced cable installer...

#11 OFFLINE   dave29

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 04:08 PM

Here is the basic design of the OPEN WORK METHOD.

Run each wire separate and straight.

Do not twist tie any of the wires together inside a wall cavity. Do not staple to the studs or any wood inside the wall cavity.

Do not use any conduit.

All holes through the wooden top, bottom and floor plates should be two or 2-9/16 inches in diameter. One side of the wall stud usually has the "new work" line voltage box nailed to it. Run the low voltage cables down the other side of the stud.

Cables can be fastened and bundled in locations outside of enclosed cavities, so that they can be unfastened and unbundled, and easily removed and replaced.

The top of holes can be covered by cutting pieces of galvanized steel flashing and folding one edge. Place this folded, while clamping the cables to the edge of the hole bored through the wood. Fasten down to the sides of the hole with 1/4 drive hex washered sheet metal screws. Make sure that this plate is accasable from outside the enclosed wall cavity after the house is completed. This will allow the install to meet code.

Cut the back off of the "new work box" where you will eventually have access to the cables. Have the installer staple a wire tie, wrapped and bundle the cables to the stud, so that cutting the wire tie will let you release all of the cables.

If going two or more floors, install a removed back "new work box" at the same level as the other outlet boxes over the cables coming down the wall next to the stud. You can install a blank plate over this frame. Removing two screws on the blank plate will allow easy access to the cables for pulling.




although your way is a great method, and other than the drywallers screwing up your wiring because it is not fastened, the building codes around here require all wiring, even low voltage to be stapled or secured

#12 OFFLINE   Mike500

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 04:24 PM

although your way is a great method, and other than the drywallers screwing up your wiring because it is not fastened, the building codes around here require all wiring, even low voltage to be stapled or secured



Not so.........!

Even with line voltage wiring, there is no requirenment under code to fasten wiring to the wood, except within 12 inches of the box only for a single box without a clamp, like the common single "new" work box. For line voltage work, there is the 1-1/4" below the surface separation rule. Since, you are using the side of the stud on the "opposite" side of the line voltage cable, you are complying with the rule and the cables are drawn and clamped "outside" the wall cavity toward the center of the 2x4 vertical stud. Horizontal line voltage wiring is crossed at 90 degrees, so intereference is minimized. Drywallers would have no problem, since the canle is tightly drawn between the top pole, the box access point and also the bottom access point.

Using this method, I've set it up with no prewiring, came back and pulled the cables with ease. Likewise, I've retrofitted houses with this system, came back, removed cables and added more newer type cables. A good electrician and "old wiring" technician can easily, remove the in wall box, remove the staple placed by the original electrician, apply the open work method, install all the wiring, use an open "old work frame," and install a new outlet plate, without disturbing the drywall or wall covering, as if it was originally installed that way.

Since new technology comes and old technology goes, the homeowner is protected for future expansion. Like one day, fiber optics might be the norm for in wall wiring.

#13 OFFLINE   dave29

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 05:44 PM

Not so.........!

Even with line voltage wiring, there is no requirenment under code to fasten wiring to the wood, except within 12 inches of the box only for a single box without a clamp, like the common single "new" work box.


you must be speaking of a national code, because the local code here states that the wiring to be fastened in 3 spots per drop on studs. i wasnt questioning your method as i know it works great, all i was saying is that we are not allowed to do it in my county or most of the surrounding counties. i am very familiar with all codes as i am a builder and i constantly have to have my guys come in and do punch out after the rough in framing/electrical/hvac inspection. also now, all electrical lines(even low voltage) that pass from one floor to the next need to have the holes to be caulked with a fireproof sealant.

#14 OFFLINE   Johnnie5000

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 05:54 PM

Here is the basic design of the OPEN WORK METHOD.

If every electrician did that, my god man, fishing 2nd lines for dvr's would be a breeze. :D

#15 OFFLINE   Mike500

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 06:28 PM

you must be speaking of a national code, because the local code here states that the wiring to be fastened in 3 spots per drop on studs. i wasnt questioning your method as i know it works great, all i was saying is that we are not allowed to do it in my county or most of the surrounding counties. i am very familiar with all codes as i am a builder and i constantly have to have my guys come in and do punch out after the rough in framing/electrical/hvac inspection. also now, all electrical lines(even low voltage) that pass from one floor to the next need to have the holes to be caulked with a fireproof sealant.



In that case, I'd mark all of the locations between the floors with orange marking paint or staple a blue/white pull string down the line to where I'd retrofit the wiring, installing blank wall box frames and metal plates to cover all access holes drilled. IOr, I'd make plut plugs in the holes that can be knocked out, after construction has been completed. Then, I'd come back after construction and pull the wires.

Most homes, today, have platform trusses between floors. I love it, when they do these with vinyl siding. I'd come back with a "Malco Brand" ""sideswiper" siding release tool. Then, I'd cut in an access hole through the sheathing. at a point between the floors at the place where the cable comes up and down in the wall. Using three or four of these access points, I can run all sorts of old work wiring throughout the house, just as if it was the space over a suspended ceiling.

To install a new outlet in the interior wall on an second floor room. I'd cut a 2x4 vertical hole at the level of the other outlets. Then, I'd use a flex bit to drill through the floor plate. Run the cable with enough length into the truss space between the floor. Snag the cable with a hook attached to a 54 ft Gopher brand telescopic extension pole and pull the wires to the access port in the sheathing. Then, I'd push the cable either up or down the outside wall with some Greenlee flexble fiberglass rod to the attic, crawspace or basement.

This done, I make a patch out of 1/16 inch baltic birch plywood and screw it to the sheathing with drywall screws. The material is thin enough that it will fit under and will not show under the replaced vinyl siding.

This way, as a Master Electrician, I can even install light fixtures in centers of rooms that never had any. Most times, there is no need for drywall repair.

#16 OFFLINE   dave29

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 06:33 PM

In that case, I'd mark all of the locations between the floors with orange marking paint or staple a blue/white pull string down the line to where I'd retrofit the wiring, installing blank wall box frames and metal plates to cover all access holes drilled. IOr, I'd make plut plugs in the holes that can be knocked out, after construction has been completed. Then, I'd come back after construction and pull the wires.

Most homes, today, have platform trusses between floors. I love it, when they do these with vinyl siding. I'd come back with a "Malco Brand" ""sideswiper" siding release tool. Then, I'd cut in an access hole through the sheathing. at a point between the floors at the place where the cable comes up and down in the wall. Using three or four of these access points, I can run all sorts of old work wiring throughout the house, just as if it was the space over a suspended ceiling.

To install a new outlet in the interior wall on an second floor room. I'd cut a 2x4 vertical hole at the level of the other outlets. Then, I'd use a flex bit to drill through the floor plate. Run the cable with enough length into the truss space between the floor. Snag the cable with a hook attached to a 54 ft Gopher brand telescopic extension pole and pull the wires to the access port in the sheathing. Then, I'd push the cable either up or down the outside wall with some Greenlee flexble fiberglass rod to the attic, crawspace or basement.

This done, I make a patch out of 1/16 inch baltic birch plywood and screw it to the sheathing with drywall screws. The material is thin enough that it will fit under and will not show under the replaced vinyl siding.

This way, as a Master Electrician, I can even install light fixtures in centers of rooms that never had any. Most times, there is no need for drywall repair.







that sounds like you do a really nice job:) and really care about your work. there arent many of you left my friend.
i wish i had an electrician around here that did work like you!!!!
we are constantly babysitting subs to make sure things are done right.

#17 OFFLINE   Johnnie5000

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 06:36 PM

Dude you're awesome. Come prewire some houses in chattanooga, please.

#18 OFFLINE   Grentz

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 08:11 PM

Cabling is an art. I have learned a lot and am pretty good myself (I do a lot of network and data line installs), but even I know there are many way above me in their mad skills ;)
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#19 OFFLINE   kornbln

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 10:28 PM

Here is the basic design of the OPEN WORK METHOD.

Run each wire separate and straight.

Do not twist tie any of the wires together inside a wall cavity. Do not staple to the studs or any wood inside the wall cavity.

Do not use any conduit.

All holes through the wooden top, bottom and floor plates should be two or 2-9/16 inches in diameter. One side of the wall stud usually has the "new work" line voltage box nailed to it. Run the low voltage cables down the other side of the stud.

Cables can be fastened and bundled in locations outside of enclosed cavities, so that they can be unfastened and unbundled, and easily removed and replaced.

The top of holes can be covered by cutting pieces of galvanized steel flashing and folding one edge. Place this folded, while clamping the cables to the edge of the hole bored through the wood. Fasten down to the sides of the hole with 1/4 drive hex washered sheet metal screws. Make sure that this plate is accasable from outside the enclosed wall cavity after the house is completed. This will allow the install to meet code.

Cut the back off of the "new work box" where you will eventually have access to the cables. Have the installer staple a wire tie, wrapped and bundle the cables to the stud, so that cutting the wire tie will let you release all of the cables.

If going two or more floors, install a removed back "new work box" at the same level as the other outlet boxes over the cables coming down the wall next to the stud. You can install a blank plate over this frame. Removing two screws on the blank plate will allow easy access to the cables for pulling.



Why would you waste time sawing the back off of a box when they make low-voltage boxes without a back specifically for this?

#20 OFFLINE   Mike500

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 10:35 PM

Why would you waste time sawing the back off of a box when they make low-voltage boxes without a back specifically for this?



I am a Master Electrician....

I do more line voltage work at times than low voltage.

Second, I own seven types and models of band saws. Just turn it on and it's cut off in seconds.

Reduced inventory.




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