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Guest Message by DevFuse

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TV fails VOD 1080P Test!!! Why?


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40 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   MrQuestion

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 02:17 AM

This evening I rented "Iron Man" from the 1080P VOD channel. During the initial rental dialogue, my VIP722 DVR indicated that my TV set did not support 1080P display and asked if I still wanted to rent the program.

My set is a new Pioneer PDP-6020FD and most definitely supports 1080P at both 60 and 24 fps. My receiver is a new Denon AVR-1909 and also supports 1080P display. The Denon is supposed to do an HDMI pass-through of the signal from the VIP722. The TV, Denon receiver and HDMI cables I used are all HDMI 1.3a certified. I am running HDMI to from the 722 to the AVR-1909 and then to the Pioneer.

I'm absolutely baffled why Dish is saying my TV doesn't pass the test. I called Dish Tech Support and was told that the monitor needs to be hooked up directly to the VIP722.

The tech support guy also tried to blame the problem on my HDMI cables and said I should use ones made by "Monster". At that point, his credibility started to sink.

In any case, I wonder if anyone else out there has had a similar experience.

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#2 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 02:25 AM

"Monster" cables are not required but I'd try a direct connection.

When the 1080p tests are done on my machine the screen blanks and a OK/Cancel box appears that if accepted provides the movie in 1080p. If not accepted or times out (similar to resolution changing on a Windows box) the test fails.

Did you see the popup asking for the confirm or just a blank screen before the failure message.

#3 OFFLINE   MrQuestion

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 02:42 AM

"Monster" cables are not required but I'd try a direct connection.

When the 1080p tests are done on my machine the screen blanks and a OK/Cancel box appears that if accepted provides the movie in 1080p. If not accepted or times out (similar to resolution changing on a Windows box) the test fails.

Did you see the popup asking for the confirm or just a blank screen before the failure message.


I saw the blank screen for about 10 seconds before the box appeared. In my case, the box asked if I wanted to 1) Cancel 2) Watch in lower resolution.

I set up the direct connection and couldn't see that anything changed. When go to restart the movie, the screen doesn't go blank again so I expect it isn't running the test. The 722 has already established that the TV doesn't support 1080P (mistakenly I might add) and will not retest. Perhaps if I rent the movie again after the 24hour rental period has expired, it will do another test.

The Dish Tech Support claim that you need to direct connect just doesn't feel right to me. This would be a huge issue for many people that hook their DVR up to a receiver. I'm beginning to wonder if the HDMI control feature that I enabled with the TV and AVR-1909 might have confused the 722.

Has anyone been successful, watching 1080P VOD even with the signal passing through a receiver?

#4 OFFLINE   petej88

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 03:30 AM

I direct connect my 722 to a Sony XBR4 120Hz tv that plays 1080p/24 blue ray fine. But it also fails the test.

I think that Dish is just having major technical issues that have not been worked out yet.

#5 OFFLINE   BattleZone

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 11:27 AM

Indeed, there are a number of 1080/24p-capable TVs that Dish's receivers aren't correctly identifying. I'm sure it's being worked on; DirecTV had the same problem when it rolled out their 1080p, and recent updates have fixed the problems with nearly all 1080/24p-capable TVs. A lot of the HDMI implementation stuff is difficult, as the "standard" was not well-defined. Given some time, I'm sure Dish will sort it out.

#6 OFFLINE   SaltiDawg

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 12:23 PM

...
My set is a new Pioneer PDP-6020FD and most definitely supports 1080P at both 60 and 24 fps. ...

MrQuestion,

Like you, I have a Kuro plasma (Pioneer PRO-150FD.) Seems as if there is a Menu choice required in order to accept and display 1080p/24. (I haven't gone into the Menus since I had the set ISF calibrated last year.)

#7 OFFLINE   phrelin

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 01:01 PM

I love the DRM-based gymnastics. By George, we've prevented anyone from stealing our stuff! How? We filmed it, and then locked it a vault so no one can see it.

#8 OFFLINE   SaltiDawg

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 01:14 PM

I love the DRM-based gymnastics. By George, we've prevented anyone from stealing our stuff! How? We filmed it, and then locked it a vault so no one can see it.

It's really not a DRM issue at all. It's simply a 24Hz vs 60Hz issue.

#9 OFFLINE   MrQuestion

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 02:12 PM

MrQuestion,

Like you, I have a Kuro plasma (Pioneer PRO-150FD.) Seems as if there is a Menu choice required in order to accept and display 1080p/24. (I haven't gone into the Menus since I had the set ISF calibrated last year.)



SaltiDawg,

You raise an excellent point. I checked my TV setup and confirmed that "PureCinema" was enabled and in "Advanced" mode. From what I understand, this means the TV is set to detect if it is receiving 1080P 24fps content and then convert it to 72 fps.

I would be very curious to learn if this is the same configuration you are using.

Unfortunately, once the TV fails the DISH test, there doesn't seem to be a way to force it to do another retest until after the 24 hour rental period is finished.

#10 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 02:24 PM

Unfortunately, once the TV fails the DISH test, there doesn't seem to be a way to force it to do another retest until after the 24 hour rental period is finished.

I can agree with that observation to a point ... I have not tested to see what happens if one cancels the purchase. I don't have a 1080p TV ... mine tests every time I rent a 1080p event, fails (as expected) and then I watch the movie in 1080i. I watched Iron Man 1080p last night so I'll have to wait for the purchase to expire before testing.

I could see it marking each offering as tested ... so perhaps the next time I try to buy Iron Man the receiver will know it has already tested for Iron Man and not test again. It could test again every day (with the nightly reboot clearing the test). Not enough data to go on.

The only thing I can say for sure is that once I have accepted the movie at a lower resolution the test isn't run.

#11 OFFLINE   SaltiDawg

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 02:58 PM

SaltiDawg,

You raise an excellent point. I checked my TV setup and confirmed that "PureCinema" was enabled and in "Advanced" mode. From what I understand, this means the TV is set to detect if it is receiving 1080P 24fps content and then convert it to 72 fps.

I would be very curious to learn if this is the same configuration you are using ...

I do have mine set to "PureCinema" and "Advanced," however I have never tried the E* Test. I belong to Netflix and get my BD/DVD content from my PS3 at 1080p (24 Hz when available.)

You may get some better (than mine) help in the AVS Forums.

Love these Kuro sets!

#12 OFFLINE   n0qcu

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 03:32 PM

Unless they changed the way it works from when I tried the 1080p it will retest until you actually make the purchase.
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#13 OFFLINE   phrelin

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 05:24 PM

It's really not a DRM issue at all. It's simply a 24Hz vs 60Hz issue.

If that were cleanly true, any 1080p TV that can "accept" a 24Hz signal even if it must modify it before displaying it would be simply able to "tell" ViP equipment it's 1080p/24Hz compatible. Instead we have a long thread that contains posts like this:

I ran the test on my Sony 55A2000, and it failed the test. I'm pretty sure it can handle 1080p/24, but it didn't work. It said "Unsupported Signal Detected".

Yes, your set CAN handle 1080p/24. Welcome to the unsupported club even though your set is supported.

You too quickly dismiss my paranoid conspiracy theories about this. I think the complexity of this issue is built into the HDMI system because of a Digital Rights Management (DRM) priority. The High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) Specification 1.2 (as implemented in HDMI CTS 1.3a) requires systems to implement HDCP in a fully-compliant manner in order to watch content. And I think Dish had to assure that compliance first. I don't think Dish understood they were facing a huge engineering investment before most of it's existing HD customers will ever be able to watch the content.

To quote Wikipedia:

Without HDCP support, the signal source will prevent the end user from viewing or recording HDCP protected content....

...The HDMI Founders are Hitachi, Matsusita Electric Industrial (Panasonic/National/Quasar), Philips, Silicon Image, Sony, Thomson (RCA), and Toshiba. Digital Content Protection, LLC (a subsidiary of Intel) provides HDCP for HDMI. HDMI also has the support of motion picture producers Fox, Universal, Warner Bros., and Disney, system operators DirecTV and EchoStar (Dish Network), CableLabs, and Samsung.

It may very well be that all of these 1080p/24Mhz problems would occur if HDCP was not built into the HDMI system. But someone would have to provide a thorough explanation about why some systems that can accept 1080p/24Hz fail the test and how that failure was totally unrelated to HDCP.

In the meantime, folks to whom music was important in 2005 can remember experiencing first hand the Sony BMG CD copy prevention scandal that basically reflected Sony's corporate culture priorities which I don't believe have changed. In addition to Sony, Intel, and the obvious content production companies listed above who share Sony's DRM priority, people generally aren't aware that Thomson, DirecTV, and CableLabs are affiliated with or controlled by people involved in movie and TV media content production interests.

Remember, I may be paranoid but that doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.:eek2:

#14 OFFLINE   MrQuestion

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 05:29 PM

Based on the preceding posts, nobody has managed to receive the DISH 1080P VOD without hooking their DVR up directly to their TV. I would really like to hear just one person chime in and say they have been successful. Are you out there???

If a direct connection were really required to receive the 1080P signal, I would think this is a stipulation that DISH would reveal before you called Tech Support (I've read every FAQ in existence and it isn't mentioned). It has been 3 months since DISH rolled this feature out. I have to believe that a good percentage of the people trying this feature (like me) have their DVR connected to an AVR rather than connected directly. Being a PC user, I'm accustomed to half baked products being rolled out to the masses. I've come to expect bugs and issues, but is it too much to ask that they include a warning in the FAQ section of their website?

#15 OFFLINE   SaltiDawg

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 05:56 PM

... But someone would have to provide a thorough explanation about why some systems that can accept 1080p/24Hz fail the test and how that failure was totally unrelated to HDCP. ...

Oh, that sounds well thought out. Not. :rolleyes:

#16 OFFLINE   phrelin

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 05:59 PM

Oh, that sounds well thought out. Not. :rolleyes:

My rants are never thought out. What's the point of a rant if you spend time thinking about it.:D

#17 OFFLINE   James Twieg

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 06:37 PM

This evening I rented "Iron Man" from the 1080P VOD channel. During the initial rental dialogue, my VIP722 DVR indicated that my TV set did not support 1080P display and asked if I still wanted to rent the program.

My set is a new Pioneer PDP-6020FD and most definitely supports 1080P at both 60 and 24 fps. My receiver is a new Denon AVR-1909 and also supports 1080P display. The Denon is supposed to do an HDMI pass-through of the signal from the VIP722. The TV, Denon receiver and HDMI cables I used are all HDMI 1.3a certified. I am running HDMI to from the 722 to the AVR-1909 and then to the Pioneer.

I'm absolutely baffled why Dish is saying my TV doesn't pass the test. I called Dish Tech Support and was told that the monitor needs to be hooked up directly to the VIP722.

The tech support guy also tried to blame the problem on my HDMI cables and said I should use ones made by "Monster". At that point, his credibility started to sink.

In any case, I wonder if anyone else out there has had a similar experience.


Did you ever start the movie and did it view OK? I tried to rent my 1st 1080p VOD movie on my Plasma 1080p TV and the size of the picture when the movie started as messed up picture was only about 1/2 the soze of my 50" TV

#18 OFFLINE   BattleZone

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 06:59 PM

In the meantime, folks to whom music was important in 2005 can remember experiencing first hand the Sony BMG CD copy prevention scandal that basically reflected Sony's corporate culture priorities which I don't believe have changed.


Without going too far off-topic, keep in mind that the copy protection scheme you refer to was created by an outside company for a division of Sony with relatively little involvement by the BMG lablel, much less Sony corporate. It was a very minor project, outside the core activities of BMG, and not paid much attention to until it was released and became front-page news. It isn't like the Sony board of directors got together in a meeting and said, "Hey, let's create a root-kit that gets installed on customer's computers, and enables hackers to modify it and take them over." I assure you that no one of VP level or higher even knows what any of that means, or didn't before the scandal happened.

Sony is certainly responsible for their products, like any company is, even if they outsource some of the work, and the affected CDs were recalled and ones that were already sold were eligable for free replacement. They handled the issue as well as any huge CE/media company could expect to, and certainly shined some light were it needed to be shined, but constantly implying that all of this DRM stuff is Sony's (or Microsoft's, or Apple's, or whomever's) fault is just perpetuating a false reality.

#19 ONLINE   harsh

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 07:02 PM

I have yet to hear of any TV passing a test when routed through a Denon receiver.

#20 OFFLINE   MrQuestion

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 07:21 PM

Did you ever start the movie and did it view OK?


I didn't have any of the sizing problems you experienced. The 722 sent my Plasma a 1080i signal which the TV then deinterlaced it up to 1080P. Of course this isn't the same thing as displaying a 1080P directly.




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