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Report Closed Caption Issues Here


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#26 OFFLINE   dschneider

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 07:57 PM

I don't think the problems are from the transmission; I think they must be in how the VIP handles the CC data streams. In the earlier post I listed two dish HD channels (Discovery and HBO) that had no CC or broken CC display on the video signal coming out of the Vip box. But if I viewed the CC on the same channels a minute later but via TV2, they were fine.

Surely the Vip takes the raw CC stream it has received and pumps it out though the TV2 connection. My connected TV then processed the CC and showed the captions fine. Same channel, different software/hardware processing devices. One works, one doesn't. I'd say the Vip software is broken.



I understand what you are saying, but I'm pretty sure that TV2 is SD. I just have the one TV1 hooked up, but in the 722 specs it says:

TV1 display supports five resolutions: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p Video-on-Demand

SD content is up-converted
HD and SD output is simultaneous
TV2 display resolution is 480i

HD content is down-converted

So I think you're not seeing 720/1080 HD video on TV2, but a down-converted signal which probably explains why the TV decoder has no problems with it.

I'm basing my assumption on the fact that when I have called in problems with specific channels like HBO, they can usually get it fixed for me, and it doesn't involve changing the VIP software. At the same time, when the requested feed was fixed, usually that subsequentially resulted in another of the HD movie feeds going out. I do know that when a transmission stream is compromised, CCs are pretty sensitive and are easily messed up. In referring to tranmission, I am not refering to what the networks provide, but rather how it is handled by the Dish side of the transmission. The problems with the HD movie channels started at the same time they added the expanded HD movie feeds last year -- never had problems before then. Also worth noting the only movie channel I NEVER have problems with is SHOtime, and it is the only one that does not yet have multiple HD feeds (yet!).

I do know what you mean about there seeming to be an initial period where the DVR seems to be trying to make sense of the CCs and there is often a delay is showing CCs at all. Then even if it does manage to get the hang of them, any button or interruption such as pause, cancel, etc. messes things up all over again (ack!!!). That particular problem started for me for the first time a few weeks ago when I still had 6.14 and continues with 6.16 so that also leads me to suspect it is not necessarily software related. My sense is that it has been worse in the past few days since getting 616, but that may or may not have anything to do with the software upgrade.

But of course I am just speculating and really don't know what the heck is going on! I just really wish Dish would exercise a little quality control with CCs, which they are clearly not doing at all at present.

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#27 OFFLINE   dschneider

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 08:05 PM

I suspect the recordings were fine. I think it is going to be just like the audio drops. Lots of recordings that were unwatchable because of many audio drops on playback, became fine after software versions fixed (or at least improved) how the recordings were processed on playback.


You could be right! I guess that's one advantage of being deaf -- if I've got audio dropouts, they aren't bothering me! :lol:

Edited by Ron Barry, 14 January 2009 - 01:16 PM.


#28 OFFLINE   rexa

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 02:12 AM

I understand what you are saying, but I'm pretty sure that TV2 is SD. I just have the one TV1 hooked up, but in the 722 specs it says:

TV1 display supports five resolutions: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p Video-on-Demand

SD content is up-converted
HD and SD output is simultaneous
TV2 display resolution is 480i

HD content is down-converted

So I think you're not seeing 720/1080 HD video on TV2, but a down-converted signal which probably explains why the TV decoder has no problems with it.


Yes, definitely the video on TV2 is not really HD, but both the SD and HD versions of the channels are available in the guide for TV2. If you select the SD channel, you essentially see the same thing on TV1 or TV2. If you select the HD version on TV2 you get a letterbox version of the HD program.

If you look at the page about Closed Captioning in the ViP User guide, you will see a box describing how it works in dual mode -- which is what I have been talking about (guess I should have mentioned that part.) It says this:
TV1 - CC available through the receiver.
TV2 - CC must be enabled on the TV.

That's why I tried it. I'm pretty sure all these assumptions are correct.

I can get by without needing CC. I feel your pain and frustration.

#29 OFFLINE   shortspark

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 08:21 AM

Yes, usually cc on tv2 are good because either the tv does a better job with the decoding and/or it is not in HD. Unlike a tv, I have a projector for tv1 which does not decode cc so I am totally at the mercy of the 622 to do this job. Like I said in previous post, no one seems to police standards. What are the government regulations for this, if any? I think they require decoding capability of tvs that are manufactured but I'm talking of the stream itself, be it from local stations or the networks themselves. My experiments are similar to some of those mentioned here and I have concluded it is how Dish (their software) handles the decoding. It is not the stations themselves because, for the most part, the captions are there. The problem is they break-up or scroll too quickly to be read. Even if they are presented properly, the spelling is such that it looks like Russian or some other foreign language, again, useless. We won't be heard. The government needs to police this somehow - that's the only way they'll listen.

I want to add something before I start messing with this. Has anyone noticed any difference in cc when the Dish receiver is connected to your display in different ways and methods? By that I mean, are captions coming through better over HDMI than a component connection? How about other, older technology connections such as Svideo or analog coax?

Edited by shortspark, 14 January 2009 - 08:29 AM.
addition


#30 OFFLINE   dschneider

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 09:06 AM

I want to add something before I start messing with this. Has anyone noticed any difference in cc when the Dish receiver is connected to your display in different ways and methods? By that I mean, are captions coming through better over HDMI than a component connection? How about other, older technology connections such as Svideo or analog coax?


I am using an HDMI connection from my 722 and having problems.

#31 OFFLINE   dschneider

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 09:14 AM

Like I said in previous post, no one seems to police standards. What are the government regulations for this, if any? I think they require decoding capability of tvs that are manufactured but I'm talking of the stream itself, be it from local stations or the networks themselves. My experiments are similar to some of those mentioned here and I have concluded it is how Dish (their software) handles the decoding. It is not the stations themselves because, for the most part, the captions are there. The problem is they break-up or scroll too quickly to be read. Even if they are presented properly, the spelling is such that it looks like Russian or some other foreign language, again, useless. We won't be heard. The government needs to police this somehow - that's the only way they'll listen..


Check out the FCC website. The law is about access in accordance with ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act). I agree that at this point for the most part it is no longer the various networks/stations that are at fault, although that was a battle that went on for years trying to get them to finally comply with providing CCs. The FCC will follow up on complaints, but as far as I know they do not monitor. They do police, but it's up to us to first report the "crime."

#32 OFFLINE   shortspark

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 09:50 AM

Check out the FCC website. The law is about access in accordance with ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act). I agree that at this point for the most part it is no longer the various networks/stations that are at fault, although that was a battle that went on for years trying to get them to finally comply with providing CCs. The FCC will follow up on complaints, but as far as I know they do not monitor. They do police, but it's up to us to first report the "crime."


The FCC does nothing, as impotent as the rest of the government. This problem has been brought to their attention I'm sure many times and for at least as long as Dish has been in business and we still have the problem. According to the FCC website, they say on the disability rights homepage, that "it is a very high priority for us that people with disabilities (HOH) get the same opportunities...." But that is just talk.

According to the website, Congress established back in 1996, that signal distributors (including satellite) provide increasing amounts of cc service. The schedule they established is shown in the link below and is quite extensive.

http://www.fcc.gov/c...sedcaption.html

As to complaints, they require first a letter to the distributor (Dish) then the response, then to them - the usual red tape and bureaucratic BS. You know, double talk such as this, "the complaint should be sent before the end of the calendar quarter following the calendar quarter when the problem happened". Crap like that instead of bold charge to the root of the problem when brought to their attention, any time and in any way.

This is just like illegal immigration. Lip service is paid to the enforcement of rules but little is actually done to address the problem.

#33 OFFLINE   dschneider

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 11:05 AM

The FCC does nothing, as impotent as the rest of the government. This problem has been brought to their attention I'm sure many times and for at least as long as Dish has been in business and we still have the problem. According to the FCC website, they say on the disability rights homepage, that "it is a very high priority for us that people with disabilities (HOH) get the same opportunities...." But that is just talk.

According to the website, Congress established back in 1996, that signal distributors (including satellite) provide increasing amounts of cc service. The schedule they established is shown in the link below and is quite extensive.

http://www.fcc.gov/c...sedcaption.html

As to complaints, they require first a letter to the distributor (Dish) then the response, then to them - the usual red tape and bureaucratic BS. You know, double talk such as this, "the complaint should be sent before the end of the calendar quarter following the calendar quarter when the problem happened". Crap like that instead of bold charge to the root of the problem when brought to their attention, any time and in any way.

This is just like illegal immigration. Lip service is paid to the enforcement of rules but little is actually done to address the problem.



Well I must admit I haven't had luck (yet!) with my own FCC complaint, but I think it is the best shot I've got! BTW, when I filed my complaint, they (the FCC) accepted my forwarded email/responses to dish executive/quality as the equivalent of the letter requirements. It was actually pretty easy to file everything online. And I know for a fact that Dish's legal department is aware of the complaint.

#34 OFFLINE   Henry

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 01:43 PM

No change in my CCs since being upgraded to 6.16. Still a crap shoot ... they work ... they don't... they work ...

At least its consistent. ;)
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#35 OFFLINE   russ9

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 02:08 PM

CNBC HD works
.
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#36 OFFLINE   Grandude

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 02:09 PM

Yesterday I watched FOX ch 205 and my wife had left CC on. Boy was it bad. Many, many seconds delay in the captioning. Totally worthless.

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#37 OFFLINE   ZBoomer

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 05:23 PM

SOME caption problems are from the source, specifically timing. The source has to send the caption properly, correctly timed or it won't matter what your receiver is doing.

Captions for LIVE events will always run quite a bit behind, since they are being typed in live by a person. Captions on a recorded even SHOULD be timed with the speaker, but they aren't always.

When I see this it's annoying, but then I remember captions are really for hearing-impaired people, and to them the timing is much less important. If the words are three seconds behind what they're saying on screen it doesn't matter.

Edited by ZBoomer, 14 January 2009 - 05:35 PM.


#38 OFFLINE   dschneider

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 07:06 PM

SOME caption problems are from the source, specifically timing. The source has to send the caption properly, correctly timed or it won't matter what your receiver is doing.

Captions for LIVE events will always run quite a bit behind, since they are being typed in live by a person. Captions on a recorded even SHOULD be timed with the speaker, but they aren't always.

When I see this it's annoying, but then I remember captions are really for hearing-impaired people, and to them the timing is much less important. If the words are three seconds behind what they're saying on screen it doesn't matter.


Actually it often DOES matter -- you wind up not being able to tell who is saying what. Try watching a talk show some time with delayed CCs! But the delay problem is the least of the problems we are experiencing with CCs missing entirely on HD channels and/or so garbled as to be completely useless.

#39 OFFLINE   TulsaOK

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 10:14 PM

Just received L6.16 on ViP722. CC isn't any better.
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#40 OFFLINE   Henry

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 11:32 PM

Wireless headsets work real fine. :)
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#41 OFFLINE   ZBoomer

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 09:47 AM

Actually it often DOES matter -- you wind up not being able to tell who is saying what. Try watching a talk show some time with delayed CCs! But the delay problem is the least of the problems we are experiencing with CCs missing entirely on HD channels and/or so garbled as to be completely useless.


I agree actually, I hate delayed captions, but to a deaf person a 1-second delay wouldn't matter much, as the captions just need to come close to matching the action on the screen, not be lip-synced with the actors.

I'm having some caption issues on an HBO program from last night (Best of CatHouse); the captions pop up for like .1 second, and disappear. Useless. I have no idea if it's the program or the receiver.

While watching CSI last night, captions were perfect. In time, stayed on screen the proper time.

I don't know enough about the technical side of captions to know if the problems could be entirely in the receiver, or some fault could fall on the program. I would think if the caption signal was weak, it would cause problems, but I'm not sure it can even be weak, like I said I don't know enough about how its imbedded.

The bottom line of my post was I doubt ALL the issues seen are the receivers fault, especially ones dealing with timing.
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#42 OFFLINE   shortspark

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 09:17 PM

Well, tonight was the worse yet. No CC on any channel, HD or SD or local OTA - nothing! I went to the menu and selected return to default, then to preferences to turn CCs back on, all for naught. What a pile of BS!

#43 OFFLINE   Chevy1965

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 07:30 PM

Running a 722 L616 dual mode.

I find my locals in Chicago seem to be pretty good. I rarely see them messed up, but I watch OTA when I can. Live shows are of course out of sync, but the primetime shows seem to be perfect. My problems all seem to be on the premium HD channels and it is hit and miss. One thing I have noticed is that if you pause or even hit cancel to view the time remaining, it wrecks the cc for a couple minutes and then it slowly comes back to sync. This definitely implies a priority problem on the 722. This is regardless of whether I am playing back a recording or watching in realtime.

#44 OFFLINE   Ron Barry

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 08:59 PM

I want to add something before I start messing with this. Has anyone noticed any difference in cc when the Dish receiver is connected to your display in different ways and methods? By that I mean, are captions coming through better over HDMI than a component connection? How about other, older technology connections such as Svideo or analog coax?


One thing to keep in mind (This is how I understand it). CC in HD is generated by the receiver and overlayed on the Content. CC in SD on Coax, Composite and svideo is passed through to the TV itself. This is any the feature of Mute causing CC to display can't work with a HD receiver. Mute signal goes to the TV while CC with HD output is generated by the receiver.

One test would be to compare the CC output of an HD channel both through the SD output (svideo, composite) and the Component and HDMI. MY guess HDMI and component will be the same.

Where i got foggy is where is the stream coming from. Is it the same stream as the SD CC? I Would suspect it is and the issues the receivers are running into is getting the conversion to work in the HD world.

One thing to point out here. Based on my limited CC exposure I have also thought they are struggling with getting it to work at the sending side of the equation combined with possible some defect on the receiving side. By sending side I mean both Dish and the orginators. This would explain why sometimes it works and sometimes it does not on the same channels.

I have definitely found OTA with the DVRs to work much better but that is most likely because that is MPEG2 and not MPEG4.

Well that is my 2 cents. Keeping the comments coming. I will try and post specific channels and information at the top of this thread when I see it.
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#45 OFFLINE   dreslism

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 10:49 AM

I don't think the problems are from the transmission; I think they must be in how the VIP handles the CC data streams. In the earlier post I listed two dish HD channels (Discovery and HBO) that had no CC or broken CC display on the video signal coming out of the Vip box. But if I viewed the CC on the same channels a minute later but via TV2, they were fine.

Surely the Vip takes the raw CC stream it has received and pumps it out though the TV2 connection. My connected TV then processed the CC and showed the captions fine. Same channel, different software/hardware processing devices. One works, one doesn't. I'd say the Vip software is broken.


NO, TV2 and TV1 are 2 different beasts with CC. I have been fighting with Dish on CC on the vip622 for over 2 years!

As dschneider suggested to you guys, I have also filed a complaint with the FCC over 2 years ago about this issue. I have been in direct contact with dish engineers, and even had hour long phone conversations with the director of engineering on this issue.

Here is the info I got out of Dish.

CC on TV2 will always work fine as it is a direct SD output. i.e. normal old Tv, CC has always been line xx of the video feed, so it is always there and always decoded by your TV, NOT the dish box, so that works and always will work.

Now, the feed going to TV1 is an HD output of the dish box, which bypasses your HD TV's tuner, so the decoding must be done by the dish box.

Here lies the problem. In the HD video feed, the CC is no longer line XX of the video feed, so it took a while for them to get it "right". Also to make matters worse, the standard was different for different HD resolutions.

For 720p it could be on line ww or yy, and some channels chose ww to feed it in , and some channels chose yy to feed it in.

ABC is a 720p feed, not 1080, so they were always the worse, especially 2 years ago when HD really started. Dish has caught up a bit, and it seems better now a days.

I still get the issue today where the CC feed will go away on it's own, ( I have not spent the time to track this one down like I have with all the other issues I reported to them.) When it does go away, it will not come back until you reboot the controller.

Nice thing to have to do when you sit down at 8:30 at night to watch a recorded show from last night, yet you are currently recording a show, so you can't reboot it since it will screw up your recording, and you can't watch the taped show due to hearing impairment, as there is no CC.

Frustrating out the wazoo, yet those who use CC are the minority, so it is low priority at Dish.

Anyhow, I was told that when the CC goes away completely that it was an issue with the firmware in the CC decoder that hicups the decoder and it goes braindead until rebooted. I was also told that the CC decoder is provided by a dish vendor, not dish, and that they were not sure if it could be fixed in a software update, or not.

For me with the vip622, the food network, and TLC are the WORST for CC.

Usually non existent, or if you watch the show for 3 minutes, then it starts, then you can rewind back to the beginning of the show, and the CC is there.

Very frustrating, especially with what we pay per month, and especially since they confirmed with me that "Yes CC works with that receiver" BEFORE i ordered service with them 2 years ago.

--Scott

#46 OFFLINE   moman19

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 01:04 PM

I find that CC can come or go any time on the local ABC HD channel and it doesn't matter if it's via sat or OTA. Reboots are not necessary. However, the same OTA channel will never lose CC on other ATSC TV's in the house that are decoding the CC info via OTA internally. One would think that this would prove the issue is located somewhere within the DVR itself.

Interestingly, I have not experienced any CC loss with the local Fox HD channel, which is also 720p.

On occasion, I've noticed that CC is absent altogether on a national HD sat channel, but I assumed that it was simply not being provided. Nor have I ever noticed CC come and go on a national sat channel.
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#47 OFFLINE   shortspark

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 08:15 PM

Is there anyone here, one single person with a 622 or 722 who gets all the HBO high definition channels with good to perfect captions all or at least most of the time?

#48 OFFLINE   rexa

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 08:42 AM

Is there anyone here, one single person with a 622 or 722 who gets all the HBO high definition channels with good to perfect captions all or at least most of the time?


I doubt it. That is, I think there is a major problem so anyone who has the occasion to use CC on (at minimum what I use -- 622) will see it on TV1.

I think the symptoms are a moving target because the Dish bugs effect depends a lot on how the source media provider decided to encode their CC.

I've been trying to quantify how the CC is broken with the dish decoder. It clearly is and for some reason seems to be worse on HD channels.

I don't really want to go search for the specifications of all the ways CC can be formatted and encoded, but, I suspect looking at that may show some hints to the pattern of failures.

#49 OFFLINE   rexa

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 09:09 AM

NO, TV2 and TV1 are 2 different beasts with CC. I have been fighting with Dish on CC on the vip622 for over 2 years!

As dschneider suggested to you guys, I have also filed a complaint with the FCC over 2 years ago about this issue. I have been in direct contact with dish engineers, and even had hour long phone conversations with the director of engineering on this issue.

Here is the info I got out of Dish.

CC on TV2 will always work fine as it is a direct SD output. i.e. normal old Tv, CC has always been line xx of the video feed, so it is always there and always decoded by your TV, NOT the dish box, so that works and always will work.

Now, the feed going to TV1 is an HD output of the dish box, which bypasses your HD TV's tuner, so the decoding must be done by the dish box.

Here lies the problem. In the HD video feed, the CC is no longer line XX of the video feed, so it took a while for them to get it "right". Also to make matters worse, the standard was different for different HD resolutions.

For 720p it could be on line ww or yy, and some channels chose ww to feed it in , and some channels chose yy to feed it in.

ABC is a 720p feed, not 1080, so they were always the worse, especially 2 years ago when HD really started. Dish has caught up a bit, and it seems better now a days.

I still get the issue today where the CC feed will go away on it's own, ( I have not spent the time to track this one down like I have with all the other issues I reported to them.) When it does go away, it will not come back until you reboot the controller.

Nice thing to have to do when you sit down at 8:30 at night to watch a recorded show from last night, yet you are currently recording a show, so you can't reboot it since it will screw up your recording, and you can't watch the taped show due to hearing impairment, as there is no CC.

Frustrating out the wazoo, yet those who use CC are the minority, so it is low priority at Dish.

Anyhow, I was told that when the CC goes away completely that it was an issue with the firmware in the CC decoder that hicups the decoder and it goes braindead until rebooted. I was also told that the CC decoder is provided by a dish vendor, not dish, and that they were not sure if it could be fixed in a software update, or not.

For me with the vip622, the food network, and TLC are the WORST for CC.

Usually non existent, or if you watch the show for 3 minutes, then it starts, then you can rewind back to the beginning of the show, and the CC is there.

Very frustrating, especially with what we pay per month, and especially since they confirmed with me that "Yes CC works with that receiver" BEFORE i ordered service with them 2 years ago.

--Scott


Ok, here's my thought. Why should you or me or anyone believe the details of what Dish is telling you? If they really understood what the problem is, it would or SHOULD already be fixed.

Do you have any friends who have DTV or cable? Is the CC functional on their HBO HD? I don't know for sure, but I'd bet yes.

I pointed out the differences between TV1 and TV2 because I think it probably proves the DVR's decoder is broken. The output on TV2 is not just standard SD. As I mentioned before, the TV2 video looks different between SD and HD versions of the same channel. The SD that gets to TV2 for an HD channel is a down-converted letterbox version of the HD channel. I suppose there is some magic they could throw in there, but my suspicion is that the CC stream that gets to the TV2 from an HD channel has to be the same stream that the DVR starts with to make its broken CC display on TV1.

I was just giving specific reasons why the DVR is clearly broken on CC.

Then there are also the multiple anomalies and problems I listed with one OTA channel from the DVR where my TV's tuner on the same channel was fine.

The DVR is broken. You are right. I agree.

I've been trying to add some specific observations about when, why and how it is broken. This should help the engineers if they ever actually take these problems seriously and start trying to fix them.

#50 OFFLINE   dschneider

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Joined: Aug 23, 2007

Posted 19 January 2009 - 07:51 PM

Based on what I have seen (and in the absence of information known only to Dish!!) the conclusion I've come to is that in recent months, various Dish HD signals/transmissions have changed due to MPEG conversion, adding/moving stations etc. At this point, the signal/encoded CCs have been altered for various reasons to such an extent that the HD DVR decoding software is no longer effective at successfully decoding CCs in a reliable manner, ie, the DVR software is now broken. And from what I understand, there is no time frame for fixing it, so I guess we get to suffer until they get around to it.

Basically, I had no problems with HD sat/premiums for a very long time. The problems all started in late summer/early fall of 08 when they added the expanded HD movie feeds (ie, not in conjunction with a software change). Upon contacting Dish, they were able to temporarily fix the problem, presumably with signal adjustments. But then in late November, things went south again, and note that at the time that happened, this was also not due to a new software release. It just happened.

Currently the HD movie feeds are a mess, along with other satellite/cable channels like HGTV, Discovery and more. The thing that finally gelled my opinion on this was that the other day I tried playing back a bunch of older recordings (mostly HD movies HBO HD, etc from months back) from my 722/EHD. ALL OF THE OLD RECORDINGS, WITHOUT FAIL OR UNDUE COAXING DISPLAYED CCs PERFECTLY! Only the new stuff is screwed up. To me, that says new material is being transmitted in a way that is incompatible with the current HD-DVR decoder which still works fine for older formats.

So it appears to me that Dish went ahead with a lot of transmission changes without regard as to whether or not the current CC decoder could still do its job, which it cannot.




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