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Report Closed Caption Issues Here


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#41 OFFLINE   ZBoomer

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 09:47 AM

Actually it often DOES matter -- you wind up not being able to tell who is saying what. Try watching a talk show some time with delayed CCs! But the delay problem is the least of the problems we are experiencing with CCs missing entirely on HD channels and/or so garbled as to be completely useless.


I agree actually, I hate delayed captions, but to a deaf person a 1-second delay wouldn't matter much, as the captions just need to come close to matching the action on the screen, not be lip-synced with the actors.

I'm having some caption issues on an HBO program from last night (Best of CatHouse); the captions pop up for like .1 second, and disappear. Useless. I have no idea if it's the program or the receiver.

While watching CSI last night, captions were perfect. In time, stayed on screen the proper time.

I don't know enough about the technical side of captions to know if the problems could be entirely in the receiver, or some fault could fall on the program. I would think if the caption signal was weak, it would cause problems, but I'm not sure it can even be weak, like I said I don't know enough about how its imbedded.

The bottom line of my post was I doubt ALL the issues seen are the receivers fault, especially ones dealing with timing.
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#42 OFFLINE   shortspark

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 09:17 PM

Well, tonight was the worse yet. No CC on any channel, HD or SD or local OTA - nothing! I went to the menu and selected return to default, then to preferences to turn CCs back on, all for naught. What a pile of BS!

#43 OFFLINE   Chevy1965

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 07:30 PM

Running a 722 L616 dual mode.

I find my locals in Chicago seem to be pretty good. I rarely see them messed up, but I watch OTA when I can. Live shows are of course out of sync, but the primetime shows seem to be perfect. My problems all seem to be on the premium HD channels and it is hit and miss. One thing I have noticed is that if you pause or even hit cancel to view the time remaining, it wrecks the cc for a couple minutes and then it slowly comes back to sync. This definitely implies a priority problem on the 722. This is regardless of whether I am playing back a recording or watching in realtime.

#44 OFFLINE   Ron Barry

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 08:59 PM

I want to add something before I start messing with this. Has anyone noticed any difference in cc when the Dish receiver is connected to your display in different ways and methods? By that I mean, are captions coming through better over HDMI than a component connection? How about other, older technology connections such as Svideo or analog coax?


One thing to keep in mind (This is how I understand it). CC in HD is generated by the receiver and overlayed on the Content. CC in SD on Coax, Composite and svideo is passed through to the TV itself. This is any the feature of Mute causing CC to display can't work with a HD receiver. Mute signal goes to the TV while CC with HD output is generated by the receiver.

One test would be to compare the CC output of an HD channel both through the SD output (svideo, composite) and the Component and HDMI. MY guess HDMI and component will be the same.

Where i got foggy is where is the stream coming from. Is it the same stream as the SD CC? I Would suspect it is and the issues the receivers are running into is getting the conversion to work in the HD world.

One thing to point out here. Based on my limited CC exposure I have also thought they are struggling with getting it to work at the sending side of the equation combined with possible some defect on the receiving side. By sending side I mean both Dish and the orginators. This would explain why sometimes it works and sometimes it does not on the same channels.

I have definitely found OTA with the DVRs to work much better but that is most likely because that is MPEG2 and not MPEG4.

Well that is my 2 cents. Keeping the comments coming. I will try and post specific channels and information at the top of this thread when I see it.
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#45 OFFLINE   dreslism

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 10:49 AM

I don't think the problems are from the transmission; I think they must be in how the VIP handles the CC data streams. In the earlier post I listed two dish HD channels (Discovery and HBO) that had no CC or broken CC display on the video signal coming out of the Vip box. But if I viewed the CC on the same channels a minute later but via TV2, they were fine.

Surely the Vip takes the raw CC stream it has received and pumps it out though the TV2 connection. My connected TV then processed the CC and showed the captions fine. Same channel, different software/hardware processing devices. One works, one doesn't. I'd say the Vip software is broken.


NO, TV2 and TV1 are 2 different beasts with CC. I have been fighting with Dish on CC on the vip622 for over 2 years!

As dschneider suggested to you guys, I have also filed a complaint with the FCC over 2 years ago about this issue. I have been in direct contact with dish engineers, and even had hour long phone conversations with the director of engineering on this issue.

Here is the info I got out of Dish.

CC on TV2 will always work fine as it is a direct SD output. i.e. normal old Tv, CC has always been line xx of the video feed, so it is always there and always decoded by your TV, NOT the dish box, so that works and always will work.

Now, the feed going to TV1 is an HD output of the dish box, which bypasses your HD TV's tuner, so the decoding must be done by the dish box.

Here lies the problem. In the HD video feed, the CC is no longer line XX of the video feed, so it took a while for them to get it "right". Also to make matters worse, the standard was different for different HD resolutions.

For 720p it could be on line ww or yy, and some channels chose ww to feed it in , and some channels chose yy to feed it in.

ABC is a 720p feed, not 1080, so they were always the worse, especially 2 years ago when HD really started. Dish has caught up a bit, and it seems better now a days.

I still get the issue today where the CC feed will go away on it's own, ( I have not spent the time to track this one down like I have with all the other issues I reported to them.) When it does go away, it will not come back until you reboot the controller.

Nice thing to have to do when you sit down at 8:30 at night to watch a recorded show from last night, yet you are currently recording a show, so you can't reboot it since it will screw up your recording, and you can't watch the taped show due to hearing impairment, as there is no CC.

Frustrating out the wazoo, yet those who use CC are the minority, so it is low priority at Dish.

Anyhow, I was told that when the CC goes away completely that it was an issue with the firmware in the CC decoder that hicups the decoder and it goes braindead until rebooted. I was also told that the CC decoder is provided by a dish vendor, not dish, and that they were not sure if it could be fixed in a software update, or not.

For me with the vip622, the food network, and TLC are the WORST for CC.

Usually non existent, or if you watch the show for 3 minutes, then it starts, then you can rewind back to the beginning of the show, and the CC is there.

Very frustrating, especially with what we pay per month, and especially since they confirmed with me that "Yes CC works with that receiver" BEFORE i ordered service with them 2 years ago.

--Scott

#46 OFFLINE   moman19

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 01:04 PM

I find that CC can come or go any time on the local ABC HD channel and it doesn't matter if it's via sat or OTA. Reboots are not necessary. However, the same OTA channel will never lose CC on other ATSC TV's in the house that are decoding the CC info via OTA internally. One would think that this would prove the issue is located somewhere within the DVR itself.

Interestingly, I have not experienced any CC loss with the local Fox HD channel, which is also 720p.

On occasion, I've noticed that CC is absent altogether on a national HD sat channel, but I assumed that it was simply not being provided. Nor have I ever noticed CC come and go on a national sat channel.
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#47 OFFLINE   shortspark

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 08:15 PM

Is there anyone here, one single person with a 622 or 722 who gets all the HBO high definition channels with good to perfect captions all or at least most of the time?

#48 OFFLINE   rexa

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 08:42 AM

Is there anyone here, one single person with a 622 or 722 who gets all the HBO high definition channels with good to perfect captions all or at least most of the time?


I doubt it. That is, I think there is a major problem so anyone who has the occasion to use CC on (at minimum what I use -- 622) will see it on TV1.

I think the symptoms are a moving target because the Dish bugs effect depends a lot on how the source media provider decided to encode their CC.

I've been trying to quantify how the CC is broken with the dish decoder. It clearly is and for some reason seems to be worse on HD channels.

I don't really want to go search for the specifications of all the ways CC can be formatted and encoded, but, I suspect looking at that may show some hints to the pattern of failures.

#49 OFFLINE   rexa

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 09:09 AM

NO, TV2 and TV1 are 2 different beasts with CC. I have been fighting with Dish on CC on the vip622 for over 2 years!

As dschneider suggested to you guys, I have also filed a complaint with the FCC over 2 years ago about this issue. I have been in direct contact with dish engineers, and even had hour long phone conversations with the director of engineering on this issue.

Here is the info I got out of Dish.

CC on TV2 will always work fine as it is a direct SD output. i.e. normal old Tv, CC has always been line xx of the video feed, so it is always there and always decoded by your TV, NOT the dish box, so that works and always will work.

Now, the feed going to TV1 is an HD output of the dish box, which bypasses your HD TV's tuner, so the decoding must be done by the dish box.

Here lies the problem. In the HD video feed, the CC is no longer line XX of the video feed, so it took a while for them to get it "right". Also to make matters worse, the standard was different for different HD resolutions.

For 720p it could be on line ww or yy, and some channels chose ww to feed it in , and some channels chose yy to feed it in.

ABC is a 720p feed, not 1080, so they were always the worse, especially 2 years ago when HD really started. Dish has caught up a bit, and it seems better now a days.

I still get the issue today where the CC feed will go away on it's own, ( I have not spent the time to track this one down like I have with all the other issues I reported to them.) When it does go away, it will not come back until you reboot the controller.

Nice thing to have to do when you sit down at 8:30 at night to watch a recorded show from last night, yet you are currently recording a show, so you can't reboot it since it will screw up your recording, and you can't watch the taped show due to hearing impairment, as there is no CC.

Frustrating out the wazoo, yet those who use CC are the minority, so it is low priority at Dish.

Anyhow, I was told that when the CC goes away completely that it was an issue with the firmware in the CC decoder that hicups the decoder and it goes braindead until rebooted. I was also told that the CC decoder is provided by a dish vendor, not dish, and that they were not sure if it could be fixed in a software update, or not.

For me with the vip622, the food network, and TLC are the WORST for CC.

Usually non existent, or if you watch the show for 3 minutes, then it starts, then you can rewind back to the beginning of the show, and the CC is there.

Very frustrating, especially with what we pay per month, and especially since they confirmed with me that "Yes CC works with that receiver" BEFORE i ordered service with them 2 years ago.

--Scott


Ok, here's my thought. Why should you or me or anyone believe the details of what Dish is telling you? If they really understood what the problem is, it would or SHOULD already be fixed.

Do you have any friends who have DTV or cable? Is the CC functional on their HBO HD? I don't know for sure, but I'd bet yes.

I pointed out the differences between TV1 and TV2 because I think it probably proves the DVR's decoder is broken. The output on TV2 is not just standard SD. As I mentioned before, the TV2 video looks different between SD and HD versions of the same channel. The SD that gets to TV2 for an HD channel is a down-converted letterbox version of the HD channel. I suppose there is some magic they could throw in there, but my suspicion is that the CC stream that gets to the TV2 from an HD channel has to be the same stream that the DVR starts with to make its broken CC display on TV1.

I was just giving specific reasons why the DVR is clearly broken on CC.

Then there are also the multiple anomalies and problems I listed with one OTA channel from the DVR where my TV's tuner on the same channel was fine.

The DVR is broken. You are right. I agree.

I've been trying to add some specific observations about when, why and how it is broken. This should help the engineers if they ever actually take these problems seriously and start trying to fix them.

#50 OFFLINE   dschneider

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 07:51 PM

Based on what I have seen (and in the absence of information known only to Dish!!) the conclusion I've come to is that in recent months, various Dish HD signals/transmissions have changed due to MPEG conversion, adding/moving stations etc. At this point, the signal/encoded CCs have been altered for various reasons to such an extent that the HD DVR decoding software is no longer effective at successfully decoding CCs in a reliable manner, ie, the DVR software is now broken. And from what I understand, there is no time frame for fixing it, so I guess we get to suffer until they get around to it.

Basically, I had no problems with HD sat/premiums for a very long time. The problems all started in late summer/early fall of 08 when they added the expanded HD movie feeds (ie, not in conjunction with a software change). Upon contacting Dish, they were able to temporarily fix the problem, presumably with signal adjustments. But then in late November, things went south again, and note that at the time that happened, this was also not due to a new software release. It just happened.

Currently the HD movie feeds are a mess, along with other satellite/cable channels like HGTV, Discovery and more. The thing that finally gelled my opinion on this was that the other day I tried playing back a bunch of older recordings (mostly HD movies HBO HD, etc from months back) from my 722/EHD. ALL OF THE OLD RECORDINGS, WITHOUT FAIL OR UNDUE COAXING DISPLAYED CCs PERFECTLY! Only the new stuff is screwed up. To me, that says new material is being transmitted in a way that is incompatible with the current HD-DVR decoder which still works fine for older formats.

So it appears to me that Dish went ahead with a lot of transmission changes without regard as to whether or not the current CC decoder could still do its job, which it cannot.

#51 OFFLINE   shortspark

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 07:57 PM

That sounds like the most plausible explanation of all. Now, what do we do about it?

#52 OFFLINE   ZBoomer

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 08:52 PM

That's what I was thinking; it works great on some channels always, but other channels suck. To me that points to a problem at the source more so than the receiver.
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#53 OFFLINE   dschneider

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 10:14 PM

That sounds like the most plausible explanation of all. Now, what do we do about it?


Complain, loudly, and often! I'm sure engineering has their hands full with many other issues and the only way resources will be assigned to fixing the CC problem is if Dish feels our pain. I updated my FCC complaint last week (feel free to chime in!) and asked them to please take some kind of action as I do not think anything will happen anytime soon otherwise. My feeling is that Dish will string this out indefinitely if they are allowed to. Beyond that, there isn't much else to be done . . . . wonder how things are over at DirectTV with CCs??

#54 OFFLINE   grog

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 12:34 AM

We have always had a problem with our Microwave upstairs.

When the Microwave is going we get pixel city on both our VIP622's.

Keep reading, this gets good!

So TNT was showing "Without a Trace" and we were watching it in HD on the 32" LCD upstairs.

There is no closed caption on the show.

Then my wife puts something in the Microwave. The interference caused the show to do it's pixel dance. Now the interference is not extreme. We can still see most of what is going on, just the pixel interruption.

This time when the event occurred I noticed we were getting closed caption. The words were garbled but some of the words were correct.

Like I said, this was an interesting event.

This should also be a key to what is going on.
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#55 OFFLINE   bhodgins

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 01:53 PM

CC since 6.15 and 6.16 has been TRULY awful! No rhyme or pattern to it that I can see. I watch mostly network TV and it's garbled. And for the first time, SD TV2 is messed up as well.

#56 OFFLINE   ZBoomer

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 06:48 PM

I get CC consistently perfect on network TV, horrible on most HBO channels, hit or miss on other stuff. (Vip 722 on 6.16)
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#57 OFFLINE   dschneider

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 11:06 AM

Heads up to CC users -- Dish is rolling out L6.17 with fixes for CC problems! I received 6.17 as a targeted download (with a heads up from Dish) on Thursday morning, and it does seem to have fixed all the issues I had with the HBO, etc HD premium movie channels. However, unfortunately now as a side effect, I have problems with CCs Locals CBS and NBC HD. Please see my post on the discussion of L6.17 software bugs at the top of the Vip612/622/722 Support Forum and please post your experiences if you have received the L6.17 download.

After my earlier postings in this thread I reached out again to my contact at the FCC regarding my complaint expressing considerable frustration (shared by others!) about the lack of response by Dish to CC issues. I believe L6.17 may be a direct result of those complaints. So thanks to all who also filed FCC complaints -- I do think it is making a difference. I am in communication with Dish engineering about CC function with L6.17 and they do seem to be actively working to correct the situation.

#58 OFFLINE   shortspark

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 01:36 PM

Heads up to CC users -- Dish is rolling out L6.17 with fixes for CC problems! I received 6.17 as a targeted download (with a heads up from Dish) on Thursday morning, and it does seem to have fixed all the issues I had with the HBO, etc HD premium movie channels. However, unfortunately now as a side effect, I have problems with CCs Locals CBS and NBC HD. Please see my post on the discussion of L6.17 software bugs at the top of the Vip612/622/722 Support Forum and please post your experiences if you have received the L6.17 download.

After my earlier postings in this thread I reached out again to my contact at the FCC regarding my complaint expressing considerable frustration (shared by others!) about the lack of response by Dish to CC issues. I believe L6.17 may be a direct result of those complaints. So thanks to all who also filed FCC complaints -- I do think it is making a difference. I am in communication with Dish engineering about CC function with L6.17 and they do seem to be actively working to correct the situation.


Thanks to you dschneider for your efforts. I'm sure without your involvement we would never have gotten a fix. I hate to hear that now the locals are screwed up but that might be on a market to market basis. As soon as I get the new firmware upgrade I'll post my findings.

#59 OFFLINE   olguy

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 12:03 PM

Ron Barry posted in another thread requesting information be posted in this one also so here's what's going on for me.

622 with 6.17 - 6.17 fixed the CC on the HBO, et al HD channels but brought it's own set of problems. Here's what I have in Houston:

Watching satellite:

Channel 2 KPRC NBC affiliate - on the HD channel no CC on recorded or live, network feed or local programming. CC works fine on the SD channel.

Channel 11 KHOU CBS affiliate - same problems as KPRC

Channel 8 KUHT PBS - SD only via satellite and no problems

Channel 13 KTRK ABC affiliate - no problems on HD or SD

Channel 26 KPRV Fox Broadcasting - No problems on HD or SD

And recording date makes no difference. Before or after 6.17 doesn't matter.
Watching OTA via the 622:

No problems on any of the HD channels including the PBS which is HD OTA.

And I've not seen problems on the few other channels I've watched such as USA and SciFi

And in a reply to an email I sent this weekend I was told the problem will be forwarded to the Locals Engineering Department. I'll keep you updated on that.

#60 OFFLINE   belador

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 05:47 PM

For me with the vip622, the food network, and TLC are the WORST for CC.


Aye Scott, I have the 722 and it's the same thing. Seems that I have to let it play a bit before it gets synced up. :icon_cry:

Also, I seeing CC problems on a bunch of channels!!!

belador




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