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ViP612 - where to find information on "zoom modes"?


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21 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   JimD

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 04:42 PM

Sorry if I've missed the discussion here, but I see nothing in a quick search for several keywords and find nothing in the 612 manual about this...

I just noticed (is this a new feature?) on my 612 under the top channel/time banner (pops up when you press cancel while watching a show) there are 2 small boxes which say "HD:Normal" and "SD:Normal". Wasn't there only 1 box here before?

When you press the "format" button (bottom left on the remote) you get a blurb that says you can press page up or page down to change these zoom modes in these boxes.

Is there a description of how/when the difference between these two come into play? I can't see any reference to the items on that top banner in the user guide, and makes me wonder how new firmware features (assuming this is one) are supposed to be learned.

I have messed around with them, but I see no difference when watching an SD program channel with the "SD:" set to either "Full Zoom" or "Normal".

Does anyone know how to use these?

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#2 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 04:50 PM

Lots of people use the format button.

Could you tell us specifically what you're trying to accomplish (aside from an educational exercise)?

#3 OFFLINE   n0qcu

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 05:14 PM

The "HD" setting changes the format of the "HD OUTPUTS" of the receiver.

The "SD" setting changes the format of the "SD OUTPUTS" of the receiver.
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#4 OFFLINE   Sandman

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 07:47 PM

There was always 2 boxes

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#5 OFFLINE   JimD

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 09:56 PM

There was always 2 boxes

Bob

Strange that I never noticed.

I use the 622 downstairs most (almost all) of the time, and it has only one box. Maybe I just didn't see it before now on the 612.

#6 OFFLINE   JimD

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 09:58 PM

The "HD" setting changes the format of the "HD OUTPUTS" of the receiver.

The "SD" setting changes the format of the "SD OUTPUTS" of the receiver.

Bummer. I was hoping the receiver would zoom SD content and not HD content on the HDMI output if you set them up that way.

This should also answer the question about what I'm trying to do...

#7 OFFLINE   Ron Barry

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 10:08 PM

SD content on an HD channel or SD content on an SD channel? THere is a difference and that is why there is two settings. One for SD channels and one for HD like mentioned above.

If you want to zoom and SD channel then you change to an SD channel and Zoom. IF you want to zoom on HD you change to an HD channel and zoom. They are independent. Also this is how the 722 and 622 work also.

Now if your goal is to zoom SD content on an HD channel and not zoom with HD content on an HD channel this is not possible (Dynamically). The HD DVR does not know SD (format) delivered on an HD channel is really SD content. To the DVR both are HD formats.

Hopefully this clears up what you can and cannot do with the format feature.
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#8 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 10:43 PM

This should also answer the question about what I'm trying to do...

Unfortunately, it doesn't explain at all. Explaining is where you state explicitly what you're looking to accomplish.

You're using one of the least successful methods of addressing a problem: detailing what hasn't worked for you and expecting that we're going guess what you're trying to do.

#9 OFFLINE   JimD

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 08:58 AM

Unfortunately, it doesn't explain at all. Explaining is where you state explicitly what you're looking to accomplish.

I am not trying to accomplish anything other than to understand the function of the two configurable boxes under the time/channel display which say "HD:normal" and "SD:normal", and determine whether those have always been there or were added in a recent update.

You're using one of the least successful methods of addressing a problem: detailing what hasn't worked for you and expecting that we're going guess what you're trying to do.

I find that comment to be both pedantic and ironic. :rolleyes: I expect nothing from you, harsh. I thought it was a fairly obvious 2-part question, and apparently n0qcu (73 de N3WZ) understood the second part perfectly. He explained their function to my satisfaction, and his explanation matches the behavior I am observing. Sandman (Bob) understood also and recognized that n0qcu had already answered the second part, so he limited his response to what remained unanswered. Your "Lots of people use the format button" response was at best nonsensical. :P

#10 OFFLINE   JimD

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 09:05 AM

SD content on an HD channel or SD content on an SD channel? THere is a difference and that is why there is two settings. One for SD channels and one for HD like mentioned above.

If you want to zoom and SD channel then you change to an SD channel and Zoom. IF you want to zoom on HD you change to an HD channel and zoom. They are independent. Also this is how the 722 and 622 work also.

Now if your goal is to zoom SD content on an HD channel and not zoom with HD content on an HD channel this is not possible (Dynamically). The HD DVR does not know SD (format) delivered on an HD channel is really SD content. To the DVR both are HD formats.

Hopefully this clears up what you can and cannot do with the format feature.

Ron, thanks for the detailed response, but it seems at odds (perhaps) with n0qcu's response. His suggested that the "HD" box controls the zoom mode on HD outputs (like the HDMI) and the "SD" box controls the outputs on an SD output (like the S-video). What you have suggested above sounds like what I had assumed them to be - that the "SD" box controlled the behavior of zoom when watching an SD channel (like say the military channel) on HDMI output. I thought it might zoom an SD channel on HDMI and not zoom an HD channel on HDMI if you set them to "HD:normal" "SD:full zoom". It does not appear to behave this way, though. Also when on an SD channel I seem unable to affect those boxes anymore, I can only do so when on an HD channel.

So, it would be really nice if dish would clearly define how these work in some document somewhere. Does this exist to your knowledge?

#11 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 09:36 AM

The full functionality of the format button is mostly undocumented. The quick reference guide is about as detailed as it gets:

Changes the shape of the picture on your TV screen to match the frame size of the program you are watching. Choose between Normal, Stretch, Partial Zoom, Zoom or Gray Bar.


Happy now?

#12 OFFLINE   SaltiDawg

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 10:06 AM

...

Now if your goal is to zoom SD content on an HD channel and not zoom with HD content on an HD channel this is not possible (Dynamically). The HD DVR does not know SD (format) delivered on an HD channel is really SD content. To the DVR both are HD formats. ...

Ron,

No disagreement what so ever. My TV (Pioneer Elite PRO-150FD) has a feature where it can detect the presence of black side bars and automatically shift to "Wide" zoom. Actually kind of a nice feature.

#13 OFFLINE   JimD

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 10:21 AM

The full functionality of the format button is mostly undocumented. The quick reference guide is about as detailed as it gets:


Happy now?

Not really. This does not address why there are two boxes instead of one.

From the responses I've received it is apparent that I am not the only one confused as to how/when each box affects the display(s).

With respect to my previous comment about being unable to affect the boxes on an SD channel - that was an incorrect conclusion. After further experimentation, I believe I have worked out the behavior.

Overall, the boxes behave as n0qcu described - the "HD" affects the zoom on an HD output (like HDMI), while the "SD" affects zoom on an SD output (like S-video). Note that I am making an assumption about the SD output, since I do not use it - but that box has absolutely no effect on what I am viewing since I use the HDMI output exclusively.

There is also a quirk to the "page down" button function which fueled my confusion. Pressing "page down" on an SD channel will not cause the banner to appear at the top of the screen. This is probably because there is no zoom option for the SD output when watching SD programming. It would have been more consistent to display the banner with the unchanged zoom each time "page down" was pressed. The code probably only displays the banner in this case if the zoom actually changes with the press of "page up" or "page down".

#14 OFFLINE   JimD

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 10:48 AM

SD content on an HD channel or SD content on an SD channel? THere is a difference and that is why there is two settings. One for SD channels and one for HD like mentioned above.

I didn't fully address your response previously. My apologies...

I do understand that there is a difference between SD content on an SD channel and SD content on an HD channel. In fact this is partly what fueled my interest in posting the original question. It would be a very nice feature to have the DVR configured to zoom SD content on SD channels when viewed on the HD output, but not zoom SD or HD content on an HD channel when viewed on the HD output - without requiring any action on the part of the operator when changing channels. Whew... I hope I stated that clearly. :confused:

This was what I was hoping was the purpose of the two boxes, but alas it is not the case. :(

It would be even more cool, and doable though perhaps expensive - to have the DVR detect when SD content is being displayed on an HD channel and adopt the SD zoom behavior accordingly. As SaltiDawg indicated there are other types of equipment out there which have this ability.

None of this is a big deal, really - since I don't like to lose the content above/below the screen when zooming SD material.

On a somewhat related note, I really wish some HD channels would stop stretching SD content. I'd rather watch SD in the correct aspect ratio than to see people hideously deformed. :lol:

#15 OFFLINE   Ron Barry

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 11:21 AM

Ron,

No disagreement what so ever. My TV (Pioneer Elite PRO-150FD) has a feature where it can detect the presence of black side bars and automatically shift to "Wide" zoom. Actually kind of a nice feature.


Sweet.. I was not aware that there was such a feature. However not all SD content has the black bars because some do some funky stuff instead of the black bars, but nice that some TVs have put features like that to try and help address the issue and help the burn in issue.
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#16 OFFLINE   ZBoomer

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 02:21 PM

The format button is pretty easy to understand, it has five modes it cycles through, normal, stretch, partial zoom, zoom, and gray bar.

It works the same on an SD or HD channel, but the receiver has two settings for the button and saves them independantly. One setting for HD channels, one for SD. The 612 shows both on the screen at the same time, the other VIP's do not, they just show the setting for whatever type content you're on (SD or HD.)

Stretch mode stretches the image horizontally, the exact amount to get a 4x3 image to fit the entire width of the 16x9 screen.

Partial zoom leaves it stretched, but also expands it vertically "half" way.

Zoom leaves it stretched horizontally, but also fully stretches it vertically the exact amount a letter/pillar-boxed 4x3 image needs to fill a fill 16x9 screen. For example, sometimes you're on a channel that is showing a 16x9 image, but it's not filling the entire screen, but instead has bars on both top and bottom. If you press the format button until it says zoom, the image will then fill the entire screen, albiet not as good looking as a real 16x9 image.

Next setting is "gray bar" which leaves the image alone, but puts gray bars on the side, like masking side bars of a 4x3 image.

Press again back to normal.

I use this button a lot, but only on SD channels where they are putting a 16x9 image on, it lets me zoom it to fill the entire screen and keeps proper aspect.

If an HD channel is being displayed improperly, like some channels do (History and NatGeo are bad), I have to use my TV's zoom feature to expand it vertically only; the Dish remote will not expand vertically only.

All this info is for a 16x9 screen setup, I really don't know what the button does if you have a 4x3 TV.
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#17 OFFLINE   JimD

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 06:22 PM

The format button is pretty easy to understand, it has five modes it cycles through, normal, stretch, partial zoom, zoom, and gray bar.

It works the same on an SD or HD channel, but the receiver has two settings for the button and saves them independantly. One setting for HD channels, one for SD. The 612 shows both on the screen at the same time, the other VIP's do not, they just show the setting for whatever type content you're on (SD or HD.)

I have had more time to experiment with things and find that you are correct with respect to there being two settings, one for HD channels and one for SD channels. You are incorrect, though, when you say that the two boxes on the 612 represent these two settings.

I use only the HDMI output on my 612. I just tuned to WETA (an SD only channel) and zoomed the display. The LEFT-HAND box ("HD:") said "zoom". The right hand box ("SD:") still said "normal", but the SD content was now zoomed to full width and height of the 16:9 display.

I then switched to an HD channel - STRZW. The left-hand box ("HD:") said "Normal" and the picture was not zoomed.

Using the "recall" button I can switch back and forth between these HD and SD programming channels, and the display zooms on the SD and does not zoom on the HD. This is a very nice feature, but is not represented in any way by the two boxes. In both cases the right-hand box always says "SD:Normal". It is the left-hand box that toggles between "HD:Normal" and "HD:Zoom" as I toggle the two channels with the recall button.

So - I am surprised to find that the 612 does in fact remember the modes you prefer for both HD and SD aspect ratio programming as you say - but I am left to conclude (still) that n0qcu's statement is correct. The right-hand "SD:" box is how the receiver's S-video output will behave.

It is also important to note that the right-hand "SD:" box has only two potential values - "Normal" and "Full zoom", and the "Full zoom" can only be selected when viewing HD content. On an SD channel you cannot change it from "Normal".

Now wouldn't it have been nice if Dish had put all of this into the 612 manual? It would have saved us from doing all this discussion and experimentation.

:confused:

#18 OFFLINE   JimD

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 06:32 PM

I just tried the above experiment with my 622 and discovered that it also has the ability to remember two different zoom modes - one for HD and one for SD channel programming. Toggling back and forth between the same two channels set the same way gives similar results as I saw with the 612. The format box toggles between "Zoom" and "Normal".

The only difference between the 622 and 612 with regard to format is that the 612 adds the ability to configure the SD output (S-video) independently from the HD output.

#19 OFFLINE   ZBoomer

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 01:35 PM

You are incorrect, though, when you say that the two boxes on the 612 represent these two settings.


Fair enough; I don't own a 612, but saw the two mode boxes on a 612 at a friend's house who does, so that was my best guess how the 612 shows it, but obviously I guessed wrong.

I don't have anything hooked up via s-video, so have no clue how it works there. I have a 722 and 622, both hooked up to modern 16x9 HDTV's with HDMI or component video, and the button works as I described above in these cases.

I have used the button a few times on an SDTV attached to TV2 on the 622, and it functions differently, but I don't remember exactly since I no longer have that setup.
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#20 OFFLINE   Ron Barry

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 11:22 AM

Hmmm. I tried this last night and I have to say I am know confused. I could have swore it worked the same way as the 622/722s. I am going to dig a bit deeper in to this one when I get a chance. Thanks for pushing the issue JimD.
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