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Discussion: DTV Transition and HR Boxes


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37 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 05:57 PM

Wouldn't the HRs be violating the law that requires that all tv tuners have access to all channels, sice they do not allow you to scan for channels.

in cincinnati WBQC went digital but has not decided on sub channels yet. I can pick it up on y computer, conveter box, H20, not HR20.


No it wouldn't. The tuners do have access to all channels, but they are only "knowledgeable" about the ones YOU choose. You can choose any two markets you like, anywhere in the country.

Simply having a mal-performing, flash based tuner is not a violation. The problem can be fixed, so bringing in the "fcc rules" is a red herring.

...hasan, N0AN

SlimLine5-SWiMLNB/DECA/WHDVR
HR44-700, WD20EURX 2 TB eSATA/ThermalTake Max 5 Enclosure

HR24-200, WD20EVDS 2 TB eSATA/ThermalTake Dock

HR24-200, H21-200. Samsung UN60C6400 60" LED/LCD

DirecTV since 1995


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#22 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 06:07 PM

I have the same zip and when I rebooted and reran my antenna setup 13-1 came in again, but no 13-2. However prior to that, I didn't have any signal at all for 13 except the SD from the sat. How are you getting your HD from the sat, i don't seem to be able to do that.


In the Des Moines DMA, we have HD LIL provided by D*. If you aren't in that DMA, you might not have HD locals provided from the sats. We don't get every hd/digital channel from D*, but we do get the major networks in HD (if you don't count CW network as major:)

13 HD has been there for some time.

...hasan, N0AN

SlimLine5-SWiMLNB/DECA/WHDVR
HR44-700, WD20EURX 2 TB eSATA/ThermalTake Max 5 Enclosure

HR24-200, WD20EVDS 2 TB eSATA/ThermalTake Dock

HR24-200, H21-200. Samsung UN60C6400 60" LED/LCD

DirecTV since 1995


#23 OFFLINE   Bob Coxner

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 07:15 PM

I posted the following in the DVR forum, before discovering that others were having similar problems:

HR20-700. My local ABC [KXXV] went digital on the 17th, although I'm not sure that has anything to do with my problem. It has 3 subchannels, 25.1, 25.2 and 25.3.

Last night I was able to watch 25.3, which is their weather only channel. The other subchannels were also working fine. This is all through the HR20. This is *after* the digital switch.

Today I can get the DTV uplinked channel 25. However, when I tune to the subchannels I get "searching for signal".

Here comes the head scratching:

When I check the signal meter it shows 100% on all three subchannels (I can see the tower lights from my back yard at night).

When I use the tv tuner, without an antenna, I can get all three subchannels. It's only when it goes through the HR20 that I lose the signal.

All other subchannels (other networks) are working fine on the HR20. I did a re-scan of the channel guide after the digital switchover, so that's not a factor. [I'm not sure what to call it but I did the antenna setup again]

When I do "Antenna Setup", "Edit Off-Air Channels" it shows the channels in the following order:

10.2
34.1
34.4
25.1
25.2
25.3
34.2
34.3

However, in the Guide the subchannels are in the proper order.

I live in tornado country, so that 25.3 weather subchannel is very important to me. I don't want the hassle of having to switch to the tv tuner for it. Also, DTV isn't yet uplinking the 25.1 in HD, only 480i, so if I want to record HD programs I need access to the 25.1 subchannel.

=================

The only thing I'll add to the original message is to reiterate that I was able to watch the 25.x subchannels last night, which was well after the digital switchover. In fact, I was watching the main 25 channel when they did the switchover, although I suppose something else could have changed after that.
Sony 34" HD-CRT KD34XBR970 and Sceptre 40" LCD
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#24 OFFLINE   dorfd1

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 07:40 PM

No it wouldn't. The tuners do have access to all channels, but they are only "knowledgeable" about the ones YOU choose. You can choose any two markets you like, anywhere in the country.

Simply having a mal-performing, flash based tuner is not a violation. The problem can be fixed, so bringing in the "fcc rules" is a red herring.


How do you watch and record low power analog stations on the hr20?

#25 OFFLINE   Crypter

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 08:41 PM

I am in the same boat... I was getting my local NBC on 10-1 perfectly fine before the switch and now after Feb 17 I cannot get NBC at all. This really upsets me because I watch so many shows on NBC and I have missed all of them since Feb 17.

God only knows how long it will be before this is fixed. I am one PO'ed customer right now.


I live in a small DMA #154 Rochester, MN so I do not expect this to be solved soon and the worst thing is that I keep wasting time resetting my OTA hoping it is fixed. A Big waste of 10 minutes each time.

#26 OFFLINE   boilerjt

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 10:42 PM

I am in the same boat... I was getting my local NBC on 10-1 perfectly fine before the switch and now after Feb 17 I cannot get NBC at all. This really upsets me because I watch so many shows on NBC and I have missed all of them since Feb 17.

God only knows how long it will be before this is fixed. I am one PO'ed customer right now.


I live in a small DMA #154 Rochester, MN so I do not expect this to be solved soon and the worst thing is that I keep wasting time resetting my OTA hoping it is fixed. A Big waste of 10 minutes each time.


How do you join an Antenna?


I have a Channel Master 7777 Preamp which has both UHF and VHF inputs. I have ordered a Winegard YA 1713 VHF-Hi antenna to help with KTTC and I'll plug that into the VHF input while my Channel Master 4221 will be plugged into the UHF input. From looking at your antenna (Antennas Direct DB2), it is a UHF only antenna. My 4221 is similar to yours, but mine has 4 bowties (with the preamp) and I barely get 10-1. BTW, I'm in NW Rochester on high ground and my antenna is in my garage attic aimed out the gable with no roofing material in the way.

It is possible that your HR20 does have the new channel 10 mapping, but it may be too weak. Just curious, how good is your signal with KAAL, KIMT, and KYIN?

Here is a great link to a Rochester HDTV forum:

http://www.avsforum....ad.php?t=392947

#27 OFFLINE   vikefan

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 08:28 AM

Update. I got a call at work yesterday from Directv in response to my email. Wow that was truley a shock. He had me call him back personaly when I got home from work. I told him that I was trying to reset everything with the reciever. I told him about wrex13 and the data update. He wasn't sure about that but was willing to listen to what I had to say. I also learned on this web site about Tribune Media Center that has the codes that will work between local network and directv. I told him about and they need to be updated. He had a top notch engineer in the office and put me on hold. He came back and said that he learned alot from this guy and they are working to fix this. He told me to keep scanning everyday and it should be good within a week. I'll call him back in a week if it isn't taken care of. Wow he was a super guy and passed all of our information to the tech.

#28 OFFLINE   leww37334

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 09:19 AM

Two of our stations 25 and 31 transitioned 17 Feb absolutely no problems with either station OTA through my AM-21's.


APT has three subchannels 25-2, 25-3, 25-4 all work fine

I guess I don't see the concern. These stations have been dealing with proving correct guide data to Directv/Tribune for years. Isn't providing the correct virtual channel mapping part of the same process?

I realize Directv has been prone to problems in this area, but perhaps some of the problem could be from the stations not providing the correct info.


Darn, I sound like I am defending Directv. I better stop now before I actually say something nice about them. :lol::lol::lol::lol:
“Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone.” - Ayn Rand

#29 OFFLINE   n2radio

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 12:28 PM

Here in our market, the ABC (13.1) Fox (13.2) and CW (13.3) transitioned from digital channel 33 to digital channel 13 in mid January when they shut down their analog signal. When the transition was complete, we had lost 13.2 and 13.3 (searching for signal). It took about 2 weeks of me notifying the station and Tribune of the problem, but we finally got 13.2 and 13.3 back.

Last week, we again lost 13.2 and 13.3. I notified the local station and the engineer contacted Tribune. Today, Tribune told the station engineer the metadata is correct and the next step would be to contact Directv.

Here's the email message from the engineer at the local station: We talked to the contact at Tribune. He indicated that the metadata is correct on his end and that no changes have been made. We made our last change just over a month ago. The next step may be to contact Directv and see if they might have made any changes.

Someone is dropping the ball.

#30 OFFLINE   David MacLeod

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 12:41 PM

http://www.dbstalk.c...ad.php?t=152817

Hasan, this is directly related to the post I made this morning (link above) and really does point out a huge issue. thank you for stating this.
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#31 OFFLINE   Crypter

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 02:44 PM

I ended up ordering one of these: http://www.solidsign....asp?prod=HBU22

It is specifically designed for Highband VHF and UHF which is where most of the channels after the transition will reside. In my case it solved my need because all my OTA stations either stayed in UHF or went High Band VHF and my UHF only antenna would not pick up the VHF (ch. 10).

High Band VHF refers to channels (7-13) UHF is 14-63 I believe.

Anyhow for anyone dealing with the issues I am the above Antenna should remedy the problem.

#32 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 02:46 PM

Two of our stations 25 and 31 transitioned 17 Feb absolutely no problems with either station OTA through my AM-21's.


APT has three subchannels 25-2, 25-3, 25-4 all work fine

I guess I don't see the concern. These stations have been dealing with proving correct guide data to Directv/Tribune for years. Isn't providing the correct virtual channel mapping part of the same process?

I realize Directv has been prone to problems in this area, but perhaps some of the problem could be from the stations not providing the correct info.


Darn, I sound like I am defending Directv. I better stop now before I actually say something nice about them. :lol::lol::lol::lol:


Other stations have been providing correct data to Tribune and they still got it wrong. When it comes to accepting the veracity of statements from Tribune vs. our local engineer (whom I personally talked to), I'll take the engineer every time. When he personally called Tribune and told them to get it right (he had the submitted paperwork right in front of him), they fixed it. They had the right info all the while...the bungled handling of it. This is not a solitary event. It doesn't explain everything, but it does explain a lot.

What I do object to is that D* played no effective role in this whatsoever. They may be trying to do something this time, as a prior post notes, but the last time, they just left us twisting in the wind for a YEAR. The only solution that worked was calling our local engineer in charge at the TV station and have him go to bat for us. That worked for me, and for many others, when nothing else did.

I'm encouraged by one poster who indicated that zapit is being responsive, but as with everything else, only results matter.:)

...hasan, N0AN

SlimLine5-SWiMLNB/DECA/WHDVR
HR44-700, WD20EURX 2 TB eSATA/ThermalTake Max 5 Enclosure

HR24-200, WD20EVDS 2 TB eSATA/ThermalTake Dock

HR24-200, H21-200. Samsung UN60C6400 60" LED/LCD

DirecTV since 1995


#33 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 03:02 PM

I ended up ordering one of these: http://www.solidsign....asp?prod=HBU22

It is specifically designed for Highband VHF and UHF which is where most of the channels after the transition will reside. In my case it solved my need because all my OTA stations either stayed in UHF or went High Band VHF and my UHF only antenna would not pick up the VHF (ch. 10).

High Band VHF refers to channels (7-13) UHF is 14-63 I believe.

Anyhow for anyone dealing with the issues I am the above Antenna should remedy the problem.


That's an excellent antenna and will solve a LOT of problems for many people. Thanks for posting. In our area, channel 5.1 (RF 59) is moving to RF 5 ...eeeuuucchh!, in June. That is going to be a disaster. Low power, requirements for physically large antenna elements, and profoundly increased noise from in-house consumer devices, not to mention commercial noise.

We have already lost the ability to receive NBC locally with most indoor antennas. It moved from RF 19 to RF 13 (UHF to VHF Hi-Band, respectively) It is driving people crazy who have been able to receive 13.1 for nearly two years perfectly using indoor pre-amped antennas. Your suggestion would solve their problems (albeit having to go outdoors or at the very least in the attic), but they face an insurmountable problem of Channel 5.1 moving to RF channel 5 in June. Their only option will be a large attic antenna, with Lo-VHF coverage, or a smaller outdoor antenna, but still withi Lo-VHF coverage, or it's bye bye ABC.

This digital transition is going to turn out to be a big boon for the satellite and cable industries. People in this area who want an easy (but not free) solution, minimal front end (but more subtle future) frustration are going cable or satellite. I hear it from people every day.

As a strong OTA advocate, I find it unfortunate that people have forgotten what we did ordinarily to receive OTA television. We all had outdoor antennas, period. Most had a TOWER and a ROTOR. Now, it seems, if it can't be received with rabbit ears, it's just the end of the world. Pathetic.

With respect to D*, I applaud them for their OTA inclusion efforts. The AM21 tuner is exceptional. Its sensitivity and resistance to multi-path, along with its integration with the satellite receiver guide and recording capabilities are jewels in their crown.

After having HD-LIL for a couple months, I can now say with some confidence that OTA is still, quite clearly (pun intended) KING. It's "nice" to have HD-LIL, but the video quality of HD-OTA is substantively better than MPEG-4 via satellite. It may not be that way everywhere, but it clearly is here, hence my advocacy of OTA for our satellite boxes.

...hasan, N0AN

SlimLine5-SWiMLNB/DECA/WHDVR
HR44-700, WD20EURX 2 TB eSATA/ThermalTake Max 5 Enclosure

HR24-200, WD20EVDS 2 TB eSATA/ThermalTake Dock

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DirecTV since 1995


#34 OFFLINE   vikefan

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 11:33 PM

Update. I got a call at work yesterday from Directv in response to my email. Wow that was truley a shock. He had me call him back personaly when I got home from work. I told him that I was trying to reset everything with the reciever. I told him about wrex13 and the data update. He wasn't sure about that but was willing to listen to what I had to say. I also learned on this web site about Tribune Media Center that has the codes that will work between local network and directv. I told him about and they need to be updated. He had a top notch engineer in the office and put me on hold. He came back and said that he learned alot from this guy and they are working to fix this. He told me to keep scanning everyday and it should be good within a week. I'll call him back in a week if it isn't taken care of. Wow he was a super guy and passed all of our information to the tech.


Update in Rockford. All channels with the problems have been fixed and all is well. Thank you Hasan for the info on tribune media that was a big help and thanks to Matt from directv for his quick solution to our problems. May the rest of you have good results.

#35 OFFLINE   satkinsn

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 05:24 PM

Not to throw another issue on the table, but I'm hoping one of you experienced folks can help me.

I found this forum by way of a thread dealing with the Watertown, NY market. The dominant station in the area is WWNY TV, which was broadcasting digitally on ch. 35 before Wednesday, and went to ch. 7 after shutting off its analog transmitter Tuesday night.

I work for the station. I'm nothing like an expert - in fact, I'm the news director. I've been pressed into service to help folks making the switch, and have learned a bit about DTV and dish since Wednesday.

Anyway, my question. Are the receivers 'dumb,' in that they literally rely only on the Tribune data to know whether a station is there?

The question interests me because we've been working on a subtle issue involving PSIP. Does a DTV receiver use PSIP at all?

I would think it has to, because (warning: I don't know what I'm talking about) my understanding is a broadcast transport stream has to have a valid PSIP in order to be recognized by a receiver.

Thanks,

Scott Atkinson
WWNY TV
Watertown NY

#36 OFFLINE   David MacLeod

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 05:45 PM

yes, the HR series relies wholly on TMS.
in my situation (wfvx fox bangor maine) only change was higher power but somehow database isn't correct and I can't view channel 7.2.
wonderful isn't it :)
Dave MacLeod
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#37 OFFLINE   satkinsn

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 06:23 PM

Dave -

At my shop, we're all learning as we go along, especially when it comes to Direct and Dish.

We *think* there are a few issues when it comes to Direct.

We're not convinced that Direct-supplied external antennas are great for vhf signals.

As noted in the other thread, we can get reception in some cases by hooking the antenna straight into the tv, bypassing the Direct box.

In the case of Dishnet, not Direct, we have one report that the chipset handles both UHF and VHF, but has trouble going from one to the other.

i like the Tribune Media explanation because it's simple and reduces the potential points of failure, but I still suspect there are other issues in play here.

best,

s.

#38 OFFLINE   David MacLeod

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 09:22 PM

in my situation hooking to tv works fine, in fact no rescan was required on any tv tuner on my end for this since the channels were just upped on power.
using the hr21-100 dvr does not work. the channel # is in guide, I show 98% strength for that channel, but supposedly I have no signal.
what can ya do :)
Dave MacLeod
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