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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Router as Access Point?


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23 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   psweig

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 11:24 AM

Does anyone know if I can use an old Linksys router (wrt54gs) as an access point? I don't want to run another ethernet cable 50 feet into my living room from my computer room. I have everything wired and I want it that way. :D
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#2 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 11:28 AM

Does anyone know if I can use an old Linksys router (wrt54gs) as an access point? I don't want to run another ethernet cable 50 feet into my living room from my computer room. I have everything wired and I want it that way. :D

Yes. Just turn off it's DHCP server and don't plug anything into it's WAN port. Configure wireless the same as any other wireless you may have in the home. Same SSID, encryption, etc. I plugged mine into a laptop first and assigned it a static LAN IP, to make it easy to find to re-configure, if I every need to. My main router is .1, I made this one .2.

I'm using an old WRT54G exactly that way. /steve
/steve

#3 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 11:31 AM

There is nothing wrong with doing this, but keep in mind that using a router (or technically a firewall) as an access point inside a network that has a different router/firewall can sometimes cause unexpected results.

You may find that you can pass traffic one way but that it doesn't work in the other direction. The best access point is one that can be set up as an access point with no firewall. Basically you won't really know until you try it.
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#4 OFFLINE   psweig

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 11:37 AM

Thanks Steve and Doug, if Steve is using one this way, I'm going to at least try it.
Antique
___________
slimline, WB68
HR20-700, HR20-100, HR23-700 (passed away, hard drive in lieu of flowers), Panasonic TC-32LX85, Two receivers HDMI (Toslink audio to Sherwood R7502 7.1 A/V Receiver in living room). One receiver component.
Wired network, from Dell 530S, 2.2Dual, 3gig mem, vod enabled, AT&T 2WIRE Broadband Router in computer room. 3 mgbit download speed.
Three composite hookups to RCA RF modulator to 20" Toshiba SD TV in bedroom and 13" Samsung TV in computer room.
Added blu-ray panasonic xmas 2008, added D-link switch in living room, Roku player, March 2009.

#5 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 11:39 AM

Thanks Steve and Doug, if Steve is using one this way, I'm going to at least try it.

I could be wrong, but the router firewall only comes into play when there's traffic from the WAN port, which there won't be, in this case. I've been using routers as WAPs for years, with no issues. /steve
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#6 OFFLINE   Grentz

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 12:31 PM

I could be wrong, but the router firewall only comes into play when there's traffic from the WAN port, which there won't be, in this case. I've been using routers as WAPs for years, with no issues. /steve


That is correct.

If anything on most you can turn off the firewall function (though it really wont make a difference). DHCP tells the computers what router is the gateway, thus other things should be directed to the gateway (like UPnP) and not any other wireless routers that have DHCP turned off and are connected via the LAN ports.
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#7 OFFLINE   psweig

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 12:57 PM

Yes, I read somewhere that you can turn the firewall off or put it into kamikaze mode and let everything through. :)

Edited by psweig, 07 March 2009 - 12:57 PM.
spelling

Antique
___________
slimline, WB68
HR20-700, HR20-100, HR23-700 (passed away, hard drive in lieu of flowers), Panasonic TC-32LX85, Two receivers HDMI (Toslink audio to Sherwood R7502 7.1 A/V Receiver in living room). One receiver component.
Wired network, from Dell 530S, 2.2Dual, 3gig mem, vod enabled, AT&T 2WIRE Broadband Router in computer room. 3 mgbit download speed.
Three composite hookups to RCA RF modulator to 20" Toshiba SD TV in bedroom and 13" Samsung TV in computer room.
Added blu-ray panasonic xmas 2008, added D-link switch in living room, Roku player, March 2009.

#8 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 01:13 PM

Yes, I read somewhere that you can turn the firewall off or put it into kamikaze mode and let everything through. :)

Actualy what we're saying is doesn't make any difference if the Linksys firewall is on or off for devices connected to the LAN ports on the router, which is what you'd be "virtually" using wirelessly.

And I'm sure you know this, but be sure to connect the main router to one of the Linkysys physical LAN ports, not the WAN port. :) /steve
/steve

#9 OFFLINE   deltafowler

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 04:35 PM

The firewall function on most home routers running behind DSL and Cable modems is redundant and unnecessary anyway. Firewall function is built into the modems, which are most cases now, routers as well.

#10 OFFLINE   djrobx

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 03:37 PM

You may find that you can pass traffic one way but that it doesn't work in the other direction. The best access point is one that can be set up as an access point with no firewall. Basically you won't really know until you try it.

That would only be true if you used the WAN port. The LAN ports and wireless functions are virtually always bridged together by default, just like any dedicated access point. If configured per Steve's instructions, the firewall/NAT router aspect never comes into play because nothing on the network tries to route out through its gateway address.

If you have a WRT54G with DD-WRT or other third party firmware installed you can also use the router in "client mode" and use it as a wireless transceiver also. Some routers have client mode as a stock feature too. I have a few ZyXEL routers that perform that function nicely.

#11 OFFLINE   RasputinAXP

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 04:03 PM

The firewall function on most home routers running behind DSL and Cable modems is redundant and unnecessary anyway. Firewall function is built into the modems, which are most cases now, routers as well.


Very untrue. A modem is a modem. A router/modem is both. Almost all people using cable internet with no voice services will have a straight modem. That should have a firewall behind it, whether software on a machine that's directly connected or hardware on a home router.

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#12 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 04:21 PM

Firewall function is built into the modems, which are most cases now, routers as well.

Outside of some of the cable company VOIP routers, I have yet to see any provider offer a combined modem/router by default. They are available to be sure, but I certainly wouldn't want one.

Firewalling at the router level typically consists of NAT and the ability to recognize and not respond to ping flooding. This is usually pretty effective, but it doesn't prevent tunneling.

#13 OFFLINE   Grentz

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 04:28 PM

Outside of some of the cable company VOIP routers, I have yet to see any provider offer a combined modem/router by default. They are available to be sure, but I certainly wouldn't want one.

Firewalling at the router level typically consists of NAT and the ability to recognize and not respond to ping flooding. This is usually pretty effective, but it doesn't prevent tunneling.


Most DSL providers modems are modem/routers that do NAT and DHCP.

In fact, many now are providing modem/router/wireless AP converged devices like the 2wire gateways.
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#14 OFFLINE   deltafowler

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 04:49 PM

Grentz knows the score.
Most cable "modems" also use NAT to mask the internal IP from the external one.
Even though they only dole out one internal IP, they're still masking you from the net (that means firewall).

Simple test:
Connect your "modem" directly to a PC.
Open a command prompt and type ipconfig /all
Note the IP address.

The go here http://www.whatsmyip.org and note that IP address

If they're different, then you have NAT (Network Address Translation), and that's really about all you need.

#15 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 06:02 PM

Most DSL providers modems are modem/routers that do NAT and DHCP.

The order of the day seems to be different where I wander. Note that I'm talking about just broadband Internet access; not services involving VOIP or "triple plays".

Comcast uses Motorola SURFboards.

Qworst (Qwest) uses standalone modems for both their DSL and fiber products.

Verizon uses standalone modems for DSL.

Covad uses standlone modems.

PacTel(AT&T) uses standalone modems.


Comcast offers a combined solution for big, big money per month as do some of the other providers, but they are the exception, not the norm.


Everyone's mileage usually varies.

#16 OFFLINE   RasputinAXP

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 06:52 PM

My grandfather's Verizon DSL in Brooklyn is actually a one-port Actiontec modem/router. It's about the only one I've seen. My father's on Sprint/Embarq DSL and has a straight modem.

Other than combined VOIP/Internet cable services, the only 1-port non-DSL devices I've ever seen are modems.

"Belligerent and numerous."

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AT200, Hopper & 360 via HDMI to Onkyo 505 to basement 42" Westy, Hopper via Comp-over-Cat5 to living room 42" Vizio with a Roku 3, Joey to Toshiba 32" LCD with a Logitech Revue. You want fries with that? Pull up to the 2nd window.


#17 OFFLINE   deltafowler

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 08:43 PM

My father's on Sprint/Embarq DSL and has a straight modem.


Betcha he doesn't.
It's probably a Zyxel 645M, unless he took the free upgrade and got the 660.
Even those use NAT, and they can be setup for routing function.
And once again, say it with me, NAT = firewall.

#18 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 08:52 PM

I actually do have a straight modem (and I will betcha on that one ;) ) .. but I'm a good boy and have a firewall on the other side of the DSL modem and then my network. I'm still NAT'd as well, but I have a more beefy firewall than the normal off the shelf variety.
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#19 OFFLINE   Grentz

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 09:02 PM

The order of the day seems to be different where I wander. Note that I'm talking about just broadband Internet access; not services involving VOIP or "triple plays".

Comcast uses Motorola SURFboards.

Qworst (Qwest) uses standalone modems for both their DSL and fiber products.

Verizon uses standalone modems for DSL.

Covad uses standlone modems.

PacTel(AT&T) uses standalone modems.


Comcast offers a combined solution for big, big money per month as do some of the other providers, but they are the exception, not the norm.


Everyone's mileage usually varies.


Hrm, interesting. Around here Quest, Verizon, and Embarq all have, even in the most basic service form of DSL, modem/router combos. I have to work with a lot of them as I am a small business consultant.

For providers, it usually removes a lot of headaches having a modem/router device as it allows a bit of security, plus the modem/router device will connect to the provider and establish the connection instead of relying on the customers PC to make the connection through the modem (which can sometimes be tricky and require additional software vs. the customer machine picking up a DHCP address from the modem/router device).

Betcha he doesn't.
It's probably a Zyxel 645M, unless he took the free upgrade and got the 660.
Even those use NAT, and they can be setup for routing function.
And once again, say it with me, NAT = firewall.


This one I can say for almost certain as my local city and my relatives in a completely different state all have embarq, Embarq had used the Zyxel 645M (or variants such as the 645R) for years, and now is on the 660. Both of which are modem/routers. They also offer a 2wire converged device for a premium price that has wireless built in too (I know for a fact that qwest and verizon offer the same 2wire wireless device for a premium on their services as well).

Personally I use a Dlink DSL Modem only that connects to a pfsense box (firewall/router). But I bought that on my own as I was getting sick of the Zyxel 660 with some of the more advanced configs I was trying to setup.

Edited by Grentz, 08 March 2009 - 09:09 PM.

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#20 OFFLINE   deltafowler

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 09:09 PM

I think the crux of this discussion gets down to how little of an understanding people have of what a router or firewall really are, by definition.

I blame Linksys for this. :D




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