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VIP612 Picture Quality Question of Up Converted SD Image to HD Output


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#1 OFFLINE   DavidRobert

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 01:29 PM

Reviewing the 612 Product info sheet, it states the SD channel is up converted to the HD output.

How good do the SD channels look when up converted by this receiver to a HD TV?

Can some one please tell me what the picture quality of the SD channels are on a HD TV? The reason I ask is- my dad watches the Westerns channel a great deal. AS I am considering a purchase of a new 2009 Samsung LED set, I wonder how good or how bad the westerns channel and other SD channels really look on a 46" LCD HD. I currently have a Sony 32" tube set and the SD channels look fine. I just don't want the SD PQ to go from good to bad, when buying a new HDTV.

Other performance and image related info is appreciated. Thanks.

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#2 OFFLINE   boy654

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 02:01 PM

your best bet is to go to a store with a 46" tv and tune to a SD channel and see for yourself what it looks like. The HD output will only be slightly better than a SD output when viewing SD programs. You'll want to avoid widescreen mode with SD because the way it distorts the picture.

#3 OFFLINE   BattleZone

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 02:17 PM

SD looks fairly lousy on ALL HDTVs, no matter what you do. SD is only 1/6th the number of pixels of a 1080-resolution HD picture, and when you take that small amount of information and stretch it across a large screen, the lack of pixel detail is much more noticable.

Further, CRTs do the best job of any display format in minimizing the visual impact of a lower-definition picture. LCDs are the worst, but any fixed-pixel display is going to be bad.

Keep in mind that when I say "bad", it's still a watchable picture, but what happens is that you get very used to HD quality, and when you switch back to SD, it will SEEM like it looks much worse than it used to.

#4 OFFLINE   DavidRobert

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 04:44 PM

I appreciate your comments.
Here in the DC area, the stores feed all the TV's with a central feed. We can't touch the dials. A store may have a Paid TV sponsor who just feeds his set with a BluRay for a perfect demo, but no one demos the real world or has a real world satellite feed demo.
That's why I was looking for Real User Views of how the 612 treats the SD channel signals. thanks.

#5 OFFLINE   SaltiDawg

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 04:58 PM

... You'll want to avoid widescreen mode with SD because the way it distorts the picture.

Some TVs do an excellent job of stretching 4:3, some not so good. My set detects the black bars if present and stretches the right and left portion of the image to fill the screen. It actually is pretty good for most all 4:3 content. YMMV

#6 OFFLINE   DavidRobert

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 08:10 AM

I'd like to know what brand/model of LCD that you have that does a good job of detecting the black bars and stretches the image. I wonder what that feature is called.

#7 OFFLINE   SaltiDawg

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 02:13 PM

I'd like to know what brand/model of LCD that you have that does a good job of detecting the black bars and stretches the image. I wonder what that feature is called.


Pioneer Elite PRO-150FD - 60" Plasma. Part of it is "Side Mask" Detection - On. (If the question was intended for me.)

The other portion is "Auto Size" Natural - On.

If you want to see a similarly good rendering of 4:3 content being morphed into 16:9 content, take a look at either the 622 or 722 Dish Satellite Receivers. They do a pretty fair job also. IIRC Panasonic Plasmas have a "Just" stretch mode that many find generally quite pleasing.

I have viewed some sets that seem not to do a good job at re-sizing in general, but I would take exception to any suggestion that this is the general or usual case.

Again, YMMV.

(I'm also in the DC area, as apparently you are.)

Edited by SaltiDawg, 22 March 2009 - 02:55 PM.


#8 OFFLINE   BattleZone

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 02:49 PM

Pioneer Elite PRO-150FD - 60" Plasma. Part of it is "Black Bar Detection" - Enabled. (If the question was intended for me.) I'm also in the DC area, as apparently you are.


Of course; you have a very expensive, high-end plasma TV. Most HDTVs on the market don't work that way.

#9 OFFLINE   SaltiDawg

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 05:06 PM

Of course; you have a very expensive, high-end plasma TV. Most HDTVs on the market don't work that way.

My $5300 two-year old does fine, but so does the Panasonics. Also, as I already pointed out, my rental Dish Satellite DVR does a great job.

I don't at all agree with your "most" conclusion. I meant not to start an argument, so whatever you say we'll accept as correct.

Bye.

#10 OFFLINE   boy654

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 05:23 PM

I appreciate your comments.
Here in the DC area, the stores feed all the TV's with a central feed. We can't touch the dials. A store may have a Paid TV sponsor who just feeds his set with a BluRay for a perfect demo, but no one demos the real world or has a real world satellite feed demo.
That's why I was looking for Real User Views of how the 612 treats the SD channel signals. thanks.



There's got to be at least one store that has antenna hooked up to some tv's. Maybe a highend or a local appliance store instead of the bigbox stores will have them. Tell them you're in the market for a HD antenna and want to see how many stations it will get, maybe rat shack will do it for you.

#11 OFFLINE   Ron Barry

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 06:03 PM

What you are asking here is a typical how will my PQ be and if you search on PQ you will find a lot of threads discussing PQ and how subjective it will be and bottom line is that it is in the eye of the watcher.

One thing to keep in mind as I understand it.. Unless you go the svideo/composite route for SD or you manually change it as you go from SD to HD the DVR up scales the picture so the scaling effect that the TV does is minimized in terms of producing the quality of the SD source upscaled.

I have also read that the svideo out and component out on these boxes (Not sure if the 612 has one as I don't use them) is not as good as what you would get with a SD DVR so I would not recommend going svideo/composite on the boxes though I am sure some would disagree and definitely is a YMMV scenario as almost anything is when you get into a PQ question.

I have to agree with the posters above, go to a independent if you have one in your area and see if you can get a demo of the Dish receiver in action. Then take a look at the SD source and judge for yourself.

For me.. SD is watchable on my 60" GWII RP LCD TV for most cases at a 11ft viewing distance. However, I don't watch the channel you are talking about and PQ varies from channel to channel so I can only talk about the SD I watch and their is not a lot of it.

Of course someone else watching my configuration could declare it is not acceptable and that is why I strongly suggest finding a source you can view and viewing it. Perhaps a neighbor that has Dish?
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#12 OFFLINE   DavidRobert

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 07:09 AM

I'd like to thank the above people for their replies. I realize PQ varies by HDTV manufacturer, but what I was hoping for was comments on how well the DISH HD receivers do with PQ to take the SD Dish image and put it out the HDMI and what that resulting image really looks like.

I'll keep searching for a small store. Radio Shack is a good idea. WIth Circuit City gone, it seems the stores that are left are a bit less friendly to make a TV sale. thanks for your help.

#13 OFFLINE   boy654

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 04:23 PM

as a general rule, SD looks progressively worse the larger the screen size. It looks ok to me on a 46" Sony LCD through hdmi, though as Ron says, it varies from channel to channel. Many HD channels are showing regular SD, some will stretch, others use side bars. VCR tapes that looked fine on a 25" set are just awful to me on a big screen

To sum up, using hdmi to watch SD will in no way degrade PQ, but it will let you see more details like graininess, video noise, sync problems, compression losses and more. Especially with older material that was shot for the small screen and movies transferred to video tape.




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