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Torchwood: Children of Earth (Miniseries Spoilers)


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#26 OFFLINE   Drew2k

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 07:10 AM

Wikipedia had the entire 5 day plot up.

I wasn't looking at the Wikipedia entry for Torchwood, I was reading the entry for an actor on the series.

---

At this point, I'm only up to day 3. We had severe weather here on Thursday, so I couldn't record the showings and decided to wait for the Blu-ray disc this Tuesday. I'll watch it the way nature intended ... :D

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#27 OFFLINE   olguy

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 11:00 AM

Day 5 spoiler - kinda

Spoiler

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#28 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 01:20 PM

Without spoilering... It seems all involved (actors, producer, writers, etc.) are up for a 4th season if the BBC wants one next year... but it's really hard to see how they'd get there.

The door isn't 100% closed I suppose... but the way this series ended, makes it VERY difficult, in my opinion, to bring things back. Given the twists and turns I'm not sure how "Torchwood" could come back.

I think it much more likely we could get a completely different show, that has many of the same characters... just not the Torchwood Institute.

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#29 OFFLINE   olguy

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 01:42 PM

I think it much more likely we could get a completely different show, that has many of the same characters... just not the Torchwood Institute.

How's this for a thought. 100 or so years in the future And see how the future Torchwood deals with 456? Or back in history to the founding of Torchwood, prior to Jack's involvement? They did give a hint in a couple of early episodes. Except I want to see Gwen again. And the gal with the attitude and big gun. :P
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#30 OFFLINE   phrelin

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 04:35 PM

Eve Myles (Gwen) is pregnant in real life. There's a long interview with her on the Under the Radar web site
Torchwood’s Eve Myles Dressed as Wonder Woman on a Beach with Johnny Cash

.

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#31 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 06:37 PM

IF they wanted old-style Torchwood... they could go back to the beginning.

They could also go back to the time when Jack was waiting around for the present if they want to keep John Barrowman on the show.

But, yeah... I'd miss modern times and Gwen.

They did sow seeds for potential new members... but it'd just be hard to imagine Jack being all back-to-normal given how they ended this series.

It's one of those great for the show, horrible for the show situations. The story had parts that worked well, but were kind of bridge-burning moments that you can't undo.

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#32 OFFLINE   frederic1943

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 07:54 PM

Remember Jack has that time and space wristband. He could be gone for a few hundred thousand years and still come back the day after he left Gwen and Rhys.
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#33 OFFLINE   olguy

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 07:58 PM

According to Richard T. Davies, the Torchwood creator:

DAVIES: We don’t yet know about our fourth series, but I’m fairly confident [it will continue] in some shape or form. I will just sit down and invent new stories and characters. That’s what I’ve spent my entire life doing. It’s not difficult at all. I could write the first 10 scenes in an episode right now.

That's from an interview you can read on EW.com. However, if you've not watched all 5 episodes, don't read it. Spoiler alert.
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#34 OFFLINE   LOCODUDE

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 11:17 PM

Would be interesting to see how they will handle the 4th season...

“The cave you fear to enter, holds the treasure you seek.” 
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#35 OFFLINE   V'ger

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 11:53 PM

Day 5 Spoiler

At the end when Forbisher's secretary is wearing the Torchwood contacts, the other woman pulled rank on the PM, and she was as guilty as anyone else in that room since she was the one who proposed using the lowest ranking schools to determine which children should go to the 456. This seems to be a major continuity error to me.

She certainly has a holier than thou attitude. I don't think she will be so uppity once the Torchwood videos get released.

Edited by V'ger, 01 August 2009 - 04:27 PM.
Spoiler time is over


#36 OFFLINE   V'ger

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 12:01 AM

Day 5 spoiler - kinda

I don't think I like Jack so much anymore. Is there another season of TW? If so, I want Gwen to be the boss and bring young Miss Habib along. And maybe the old gal that worked for Frobisher. And also the gal with the attitude and big gun.


I really wanted to see the militray babe with the big attitude get hers at some point in the show. But it didn't happen. I kinda think she was a lot like Jack was in 1965.. He didn't care. She didn't care about rules or people or anyone who got in the way.

In a fourth season, I could see her being a foil, having found Torchwood alien technology in the rubble at the Hub.

Edited by V'ger, 01 August 2009 - 04:29 PM.
Spoiler time is over


#37 OFFLINE   V'ger

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 12:12 AM

IF they wanted old-style Torchwood... they could go back to the beginning.

They could also go back to the time when Jack was waiting around for the present if they want to keep John Barrowman on the show.

But, yeah... I'd miss modern times and Gwen.

They did sow seeds for potential new members... but it'd just be hard to imagine Jack being all back-to-normal given how they ended this series.

It's one of those great for the show, horrible for the show situations. The story had parts that worked well, but were kind of bridge-burning moments that you can't undo.


I wonder how Jack evolves into the "Face of Boe" as in the two Doctor Who episodes with the cat people. In the second episode, Boe dies. The face of Boe told the Doctor that there was another (timelord)... which turned out to be the Master. So somehow in the distant future Jack regenerates into a huge prunefaced head.

More info at http://en.wikipedia....iki/Face_of_Boe

Edited by V'ger, 26 July 2009 - 12:29 AM.


#38 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 01:07 PM

Remember Jack has that time and space wristband. He could be gone for a few hundred thousand years and still come back the day after he left Gwen and Rhys.


Outside of Torchwood, the Doctor keeps breaking the time-portion of that wristband... so not sure it is anything more than just a teleporter at the moment.

That said... there would be no logical reason for Jack to want to return to that time. He wants time away to forget the things he has done... so if he does that, he wouldn't want to jump back into the fire. Makes more sense for him to stay away and come back in the future UNLESS something happens to bring him back sooner.

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#39 OFFLINE   phrelin

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 02:53 PM

There's plenty of folks living who could make a good next season as primary and secondary characters, even if Jack didn't "drop in" which he could under the right circumstances.

Posted ImagePosted Image
We have Gwen Cooper and hubby Rhys Williams, plus a kid whose reality could easily be something more than the sum of the genetic Gwen/Rhys (hey, it's "Torchwood" isn't it).

Posted ImagePosted Image
Then we have the obvious new characters - Lois Habiba and Johnson.

Posted ImagePosted Image
Plus we have the two relatives who are going to be angry for entirely different reasons - Alice Carter and Rhiannon Davies.

Posted ImagePosted Image
And then speaking of the angry, we have PC Andy Davidson and Bridget Spears.

Posted Image
And wasn't Mr. Dekker alive and well when we last saw him - the science geek.

I think we all could think of story lines that could be built around these people that might even involve a reason for Jack to drop in.

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#40 OFFLINE   LOCODUDE

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 03:29 PM

You know what? What you just said, makes sense. Could work...... :)

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#41 OFFLINE   olguy

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 05:25 PM

Yeah, phrelin. What LOCODUDE said.
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#42 OFFLINE   phrelin

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 03:10 PM

I've been puzzling over my inability to find discussion from both critics and fans about the dark political/social (and individual in the case of Jack and Frobisher) morality "logic theme" presented by the 456.

Fans of the series seem crushed by the death of the popular character Ianto and the dark turn taken by Captain Jack Harkness in the unusually dark story line.

For me the crux of the story relates to the belief by an alien species that humans are, in fact and with a great deal of irony, "inhuman" meaning "lacking qualities of sympathy, pity, warmth, compassion, or the like; cruel; brutal" particularly in regard to our own species. The 456 want 10% of the Earth's children. When an objection is raised by Captain Jack, the 456 response is “but you’re letting children die every day; why would you mind this?” They offer statistics we all know but don't seem care about. Over 25,000 children die every day around the world. That is equivalent to:
  • 1 child dying every 3.5 seconds
  • 17-18 children dying every minute
  • Over 9 million children dying every year
  • Some 70 million children dying between 2000 and 2007
Our children (the alien assumes "our" because we are a single species) die of hunger, easily preventable diseases and illnesses, and other poverty related causes. In spite of the scale of this ongoing catastrophe, humanity does nothing to solve a problem that could be solved simply by reallocating half the accumulated wealth from North America, Europe and Japan which would by all human historical standards still leave the people in those three areas incredibly wealthy.

Given this inhuman nature of our species, an alien species that appears to be able to kill us all merely wants 10% of our children. We are presented with a meeting of elected and appointed officials discussing criteria for selecting children based on their desirability, which concluded. as such a meeting would, that most would be chosen from the poor all for the good of society as a whole.

This shouldn't be too disturbing because the Nazi's in fact did hold the Wannsee Conference to establish criteria for the processes of the "final solution" and in fact most of the foot soldiers in most armies around the world who are sent to kill and die for the good of their nation are mostly the poor.

It would seem so logical to an alien observing humanity over time that we could select 10% of our children to give to aliens for the good of the remainder of humanity. Day in and day out as a species the richest societies buy iPods while far more than 10% of human young die from preventable causes.

In Britain the one frequent fan criticism of the show is that somehow the writers were trying to write a Shakespearean tragedy. Personally, I thought it was more akin to the tragedies of the ancient Greek myths.

Like those myths, it was a modern morality tale with it's flawed hero. But somehow I think it failed to stir the type of discussion one might expect.

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#43 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 10:15 PM

One problem, in my mind... was that the 456 presented it as if it was an either-or situation.

Either we give them 10% OR kids would be dying every day anyway.

The truth is that the 10% given to the 456 would not necessarily be part of the kids that would have died that day anyway... and in fact, likely would not be given the methodology used to get the kids (the scenes of kids being ripped away from parents by military, indicates kids that while poor and perhaps underachieving were loved and cared for)...

So, the giving of 10% wouldn't have been the 10% that might have also died under normal circumstances, but instead in addition to it.

So while much of the show was scary in its closeness to "what if" in a real-world scenario... it really wasn't an either-or choice.

Also disappointing that there really wasn't much of a fight put up against them. In 1965, capitulation was purely voluntary. In 2009 a handful of people in a building that was secured from escape died from an unknown virus that perhaps could have been cured given time. In an actual war against the 456, who knows hoe much better humanity might have fared. Also, Jack was able to frighteningly easily and simply turn them away once he spent a few minutes actually thinking about it.

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#44 OFFLINE   phrelin

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 12:09 AM

One problem, in my mind... was that the 456 presented it as if it was an either-or situation.

Either we give them 10% OR kids would be dying every day anyway.

The truth is that the 10% given to the 456 would not necessarily be part of the kids that would have died that day anyway... and in fact, likely would not be given the methodology used to get the kids (the scenes of kids being ripped away from parents by military, indicates kids that while poor and perhaps underachieving were loved and cared for)...

So, the giving of 10% wouldn't have been the 10% that might have also died under normal circumstances, but instead in addition to it.

So while much of the show was scary in its closeness to "what if" in a real-world scenario... it really wasn't an either-or choice.

That is the way we view it. But from a logical standpoint a 456 might not understand why we just wouldn't give them the kids that would die anyway. Or give them "some kids" and thereby free up resources to save the rest, or buy more iPhones, the 456 don't care. It's all about choices as a species, not as artificially created, and biologically irrelevant, nations. Initially the number was just 10% of the world's children. When we balked, they put it into the logical form we understand - 10% from each nation. One thing that surprised me, and it may have been a time constraint, is that the show didn't explore the "what if" of one nation refusing.

Also disappointing that there really wasn't much of a fight put up against them. In 1965, capitulation was purely voluntary. In 2009 a handful of people in a building that was secured from escape died from an unknown virus that perhaps could have been cured given time. In an actual war against the 456, who knows how much better humanity might have fared. Also, Jack was able to frighteningly easily and simply turn them away once he spent a few minutes actually thinking about it.

Historically, most of what humans have feared and hated as a species is "the other" of our own species. It seems we instinctively divide along family, class, tribal and national lines thinking we are protecting "our own". In this show, it was clearly family and class that mattered more than mankind as a whole.

Enter the tragically flawed hero who acting against instinct saves all mankind, but at great sacrifice to himself - the sacrifice of his family line.

Of course, we have to suspend disbelief. It is television and it is science fiction, after all. But most of the world's tragic myths require the same. And unless the show's producers have advanced knowledge that they'll have 300 hours in which to tell the story, most things just go unexplored.

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#45 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 03:18 PM

That was sort of where I was going... the 10% to be given were going to be pulled from the "less important" section of society without regard to viability. In truth, to make such a decision when weighed against kids who wouldn't survive anyway... they should have made the choice to first sacrifice children with terminal illnesses, for example.

Mind you, I'm not advocating it in a real world scenario... Just from the pure-logic point of view that would have followed pure-logic.

The end-result, is that people in the show did what people do... protect themselves and others be damned... so it was realistic on that point, unfortunately... I was just pointing out the logic flaw that if the argument was "why not give kids since a bunch would die anyway" then that only works if you give away those kids first... then you'd be sacrificing without affecting the mortality rate and a "win win" within the confines of the show.

The blurry moral argument there being... Is it wrong to kill a dying kid to save the world? Some would argue that if it saves the world, and the kid would die anyway... why not. Not saying that's my choice... but in a show like Torchwood, it would probably seem like a rational conclusion.

Like in movies where the guy with terminal cancer sacrifices his life to save someone... he knows he was going to die anyway, and makes his death mean something by saving someone else.

At the end of the day, of course, it's just TV :) And it was entertaining, and definitely one of those "something happens that changes everything" type of stories.

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#46 OFFLINE   CoriBright

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 09:50 PM

My BluRay disks arrived today :) I think a marathon may be happening here tomorrow. Or should that be a TWoodathon?

Don't forget, if Law & Order UK doesn't work out, we've still also got Martha, personally I thought she was rather disappointing in L&O UK, and would be much better back in TW. Did no one go to ComicCon in San Diego? RTD was there answering questions on TW and DW.
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#47 OFFLINE   djlong

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 10:31 PM

First off, children dying is not a resource allocation problem. It's a distribution problem. Things like warlords preventing aid workers from distributing food. But that's as far as I'l go politically in this thread.

The problem I had was about the 'collection process'.

Tell me - is the UK military filled with such automatons that they would not rebel against such an order? We saw, to use phrases that right-wing radio likes to use, jack-booted thugs taking away children. Does not the British soldier have a conscience?

Also, there should have been a story line about how the U.S. was WAY under quota. Why? We are an armed society. If the military or anyone else started rounding up children - you bet your bottom dollar that there's be rioting and gunfire on a massive scale. Every survivalist would be arming his neighbors while screaming "I told you so!".

#48 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 10:50 PM

djlong,

good points. I gather the UK military was "in the dark" and perhaps were told they were taking children under duress for the good of the children for those "vaccinations"...

I remember being in a hospital emergency room as a kid (probably around 10 or so years old) and we did not have a family doctor yet, hence the emergency room for the high fever I was running... so they wanted to take blood and I hated needles.

I ripped the lining out of my father's dress coat (I was wearing because of being cold) and it took several adult males to hold me down so they could get the blood sample to diagnose me.

From my perspective as a child, a horrible violation! From my parents and the doctors/nurses perspective, I was running a 104 degree fever and it was very much necessary to do what they needed to do to find out what was wrong. (Long story short, I had Strep Throat and obviously I survived the experience)

The point being... it'd be very easy to lie and get most people to go along with the "we need to cure the weird thing that the children have been doing" as portrayed in the show.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that IF they had gone even more public with that info, and not been so secretive... they might have gotten even more cooperation from the populace with that lie.

-- Friday Friday Friday... the 13th!

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#49 OFFLINE   Drew2k

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Posted 02 August 2009 - 11:14 AM

Can a moderator please rename this thread to Torchwood: Children of Earth (Miniseries Spoilers) ? Otherwise some unsuspecting Torchwood fan could easily be spoiled thinking this is just a generic discussion thread. Thanks.

#50 OFFLINE   Drew2k

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Posted 02 August 2009 - 11:24 AM

I finished watching this in HD last night (thank you Blu-ray!) and really enjoyed it. I was a little disappointed the BD did not include the five 15-minute "Inside Look" specials that BBCA aired. It had Torchwood Declassified but there was information in the Inside Look (such as discussion of the future of the Torchwood series) that was not in Declassified.

I noted a few inconsistencies that momentarily took me out of the story (Johnson's team could immediately trace phone calls made by Alice, Ianto and Gwen, but could not immediately trace Jack's phone call; People on the ground floor of the MI5 building died before Ianto and Jack at the source and before Dekker did; that the time it took for Jack to resurrect varied for no apparent reason: gunshot = 2 minutes; concrete suffocation = 30 seconds; virus = several hours apparently) but I still really, really enjoyed it.

It's a shame Ianto is not coming back - it would have been so much fun to see a continuation of the "are we a couple or not" plot - but as Davies said a significant death was needed to convey properly that this was a tragedy all the way around. I'll miss Ianto, but the story was better for his passing.

Now I'm just hoping the BBC wants to make another series ...




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