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Pioneer VSX-1019AH-K vs Onkyo HT-S7200


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#21 OFFLINE   logandraven

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 12:18 PM

In real world situations with real world movie watching taking place in over 90% of living rooms across the country, the difference in upscaling of the Oppo will not matter. On certain tests and in certain conditions there's a difference. I've seen the difference first hand. But that difference is rarely noticeable in anything but side by side comparisons. If you came over to my house and watched a SD DVD in my theater and you didn't know which BD player I was using, you would not be able to tell. Period. That's the bottom line. you make it sound like the difference is night and day. it's not. And to get that minute difference in upscaling is not worth the extra $300+ that the Oppo will set people back. Their money is much better spent elsewhere. That's the point. For the vast majority (yes, vast) of users, the Oppo is way more than they need and a waste of money. Going back to your car analogy, it's no different than someone buying that Ferari to drive to work and back every day in rush hour. Is the Ferari great? You bet. Does it win awards? You bet. But it's not needed for the average commuter.


Feature sets, performance, ease of use, and customer service matter to most people when it comes to CE products. A combination of those four factors are what determine the success or failure of any given product, and are the difference in customer satisfaction and customer dissatisfaction.

People want more capabilities not less. I don't care if we're talking about cell phones, PCs, or a microwave, people want the Swiss army knife version of whatever product they are purchasing, and they want it at a good price. The same is true for most people as it applies to blu ray players, and that is demonstrated by the significant increase in feature sets and capabilities over the past two years.

But what has become the ridiculous aspect of this discussion (on both boards I might add), is your attempt to arbitrarily (and wrongly) minimize what features are important to most consumers, and your total disregard for what is clearly being put forth as important to the reviewers themselves.

In reading the reviews of any blu ray player, the Oppo included, there are seven core aspects that every reviewer focuses upon. Load times, Blu Ray video quality, ease of use and set-up, standard DVD upscaling, audio quality, and hardware and software feature sets. The conflict here comes in your posts. The reviewers, and indeed the buying public, find those seven things to be important. By contrast you have essentially said that most people don't need or won't notice any difference in six of the seven core aspects. That is pure nonsense.

There are discernible differences in each of those 7 core aspects that reviewers key upon, and that is what separates the good, from the very good, from the best. That's why most of the reviewers put the Oppo forth as a superb value, and as giving the most bang for the buck. Interesting how the professionals all agree on this point and you do not.

What becomes tiresome is the tit for tat. I bring up load times, and you put forth that other players are as fast. That's fine, except for the fact that multiple reviewers put it forth as the fastest of any player that they've tested, and even outperforming what was widely considered to be the fastest previously. But what gets lost in that tit for tat is that the players that you put forth as faster or as fast as the Oppo (which is dishonest in and of itself) is that they also aren't as good as the Oppo in the other 6 categories that matter. The same holds true for your hair splitting on the other 6 categories as well. There are individual systems that may do one or two things well, but none match the Oppo across all 7 critera.

As I've said now numerous times, if people don't want to spend $500, or don't have $500 to spend, then by all means pick up a cheaper system that gives them most of what they want and need. All I have said is that they need to understand that what they are buying are lesser systems. And despite the fact that you might disagree on that point, all of the reviews would say otherwise. At the same time if one wanted NetFlix, Pandora, YouTube etc etc I would suggest they go with another system, even if that system won't be as good with regard to most of the other areas deemed as important by most reviewers.

Lastly, your comment that most people won't notice a discernible difference with regard to standard DVD upscaling is just flat erroneous. I happened to have a JVC system that -was- considered one of the better upscaling players, and the difference between it and the Oppo was very evident. Night and day? No, but clearly evident - absolutely. This is also another area in which the vast majority of reviewers would disagree with you.

To use another analogy - There is a reason why the iPod is widely considered the best. It has a robust feature set, is easy to use, is made well, tends to render audio and video well etc. It wins awards because of that robust feature set, and because it actually performs well. Do people need it to listen to music? No, and someone like you would say that the average consumer doesn't need it to listen to music. They could of course go to Big Lots and buy whatever is on sale and listen to their MP3s. But if people want the best across the board, and want what caters to both their wants and needs, then they'll get the iPod. The same is true for the Oppo. Take care. J

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#22 OFFLINE   spartanstew

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 12:33 PM

This will be my last post on the subject. As I've already said, the Oppo is the best Blu Ray player on the market for many reasons. However, most people (yes, most people) either don't need all of it's features OR the difference in those features is not clearly evident among some contenders.
Unless someone needs to play the other formats that the Oppo can handle (DVD-A, for example), there's no need to spend $500 on it. You can get a number of other players that play BD's equally as well and are very close in regards to DVD for much, much cheaper (under $200). That's the bottom line. If you think the Oppo is worth it, great. It's just not worth it for most (yes, most).

To use another analogy - There is a reason why the iPod is widely considered the best. It has a robust feature set, is easy to use, is made well, tends to render audio and video well etc. It wins awards because of that robust feature set, and because it actually performs well. Do people need it to listen to music? No, and someone like you would say that the average consumer doesn't need it to listen to music.


:confused: I thought the ipod was for listening to music? If people don't need it to listen to music, what do they need it for? Your logic is baffling.

I'm sure Directv can't wait to get their hands on your unit.

 
Directv customer since 2000

#23 OFFLINE   Cholly

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 03:08 PM

Not to stir the pot, but the new issue of Consumer Reports arrived today. In it, they rated Blu-ray players. Both the Oppo and Panasonic DMP-BD80 received scores of 93 out of a possible 100 (Excellent). The report rightly indicated that the Oppo can play SACD's and natively handles BD-Live, while the Panasonic requires an SD card to support BD-Live.

For what it's worth: as you can see by my signature, I have a Panasonic DMP-BD605 player, (a DMP-BD60 with included HDMI cable, which is the little brother to the DMP-BD80). It feeds my 55 inch Sony RPTV by way of my Yamaha RX-V663 receiver. My speakers are all Paradigms. My DMP-BD605 cost me $229. The difference in cost between it and the Oppo would be well spent in upgrading speakers.
It's all well and good to cite many reviewers regarding the Oppo, but in home use for all but the most technically advanced and financially well off user, the Panasonic DMP-BD80 (or 60), the LG BD390 or the Samsung BD-P4600 are all excellent choices in the $250-$350 price range.

Charlie
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Family Room: Sony KDFE-55A20 55" LCD RPTV; Yamaha RX-V663 AVR. Paradigm speakers - Focus fronts, CC170 center, PDR-8 subwoofer, Atom surrounds, ADP rear center; TiVoRoamio Plus, LG BH200 HD DVD/Blu-ray player via HDMI to AVR
Bedroom: Vizio 42" 3D TV, Pioneer VSX-521-K AVR, Panasonic 3D DVD player, Energy Take Classic 5.1 speakers, Roku 2 XD, TiVo Premiere, Insignia HD radio tuner, Toshiba HD DVD player


#24 OFFLINE   logandraven

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 05:01 PM

That's the bottom line. If you think the Oppo is worth it, great. It's just not worth it for most (yes, most).

I thought the ipod was for listening to music? If people don't need it to listen to music, what do they need it for? Your logic is baffling.


It is worth it for most. It's not worth it for a few who actually delude themselves into thinking that there are not noticeable differences between players in such areas as blu ray playback, standard DVD upscaling, and audio. Oh btw none of our conversations have even touched upon the connectivity of the Oppo which tends also tends to be top notch.

The iPod analogy was valid. While you admit that the Oppo is the best player out there you minimize or disregard its robust feature set and performance due to your myopic viewpoint that the average user doesn't need those features, and will use their blu ray player to play only blu ray movies.

Much like the Oppo it provides a great feature set. It has an excellent display, plays music extremely well, plays videos, and even has a web browser. And it's not just that it provides a better feature set than the competition, just like the Oppo it outperforms it's competition almost across the board (although the people at Zune might dispute that lol). Also, much like the Oppo which costs about 20% more than most of its closest competition, the iPod ranges from 66% more expensive than more basic models, to about 10-15% higher than its closest competition.

Given your "reasoning" in earlier posts you would say that "most people" don't need all that the iPod offers to listen to MP3s, that the iPod is not a value,and that they should buy a cheaper unit to listen to one's music. My point is that you'd be dead wrong by any comparison. "Most people" want robust feature sets and want the best. Most people care about performance across the board, and aren't overly interested in products that only get some of the basics right. And in the end the people themselves demonstrate that by how they spend their money...which is exactly why the iPod is so incredibly popular.

The real bottom line - you get what you pay for. Nice chatting with you. J

#25 OFFLINE   logandraven

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 05:32 PM

Not to stir the pot, but the new issue of Consumer Reports arrived today. In it, they rated Blu-ray players. Both the Oppo and Panasonic DMP-BD80 received scores of 93 out of a possible 100 (Excellent). The report rightly indicated that the Oppo can play SACD's and natively handles BD-Live, while the Panasonic requires an SD card to support BD-Live.

It's all well and good to cite many reviewers regarding the Oppo, but in home use for all but the most technically advanced and financially well off user, the Panasonic DMP-BD80 (or 60), the LG BD390 or the Samsung BD-P4600 are all excellent choices in the $250-$350 price range.


Hi Charlie. Believe it or not I do like Consumer Reports as a good source for reviews, though generally speaking I don't use them for electronics, but more for appliances. Even so, I have seen several reviews for the DMP-BD80, and it has scored pretty well though the reviews have been varied quite a bit and are not as consistent as the Oppo.

I'm pretty sure that a lot of people are unaware that the Oppo also comes with a HDMI cable, and two different discs to set up both audio and video, and on-board memory. Those are very nice additions, that should factor into these discussions on price, but typically don't. It's also important to note that between those discs, and a very user friendly manual (which as a Yamaha owner you know how complicated they can be lol), that people can accomplish what some would consider more technically proficient tasks more easily than they could imagine. BTW I did at both the LG and the Samsung in my research. I would still recommend them for people wanting some of the streaming options out there.

I do want to add that I'm not one of those "financially well off" people. LOL I'm a single dad who works full time and am attending school full time while finishing up my first Masters. Time and money tend to be two things that I am in short supply of : )

One last thing - I happen to agree that one could use the money saved by going with a cheaper, less capable system, to upgrade other aspects of their home theater setup. But one could also look at their purchase of the Oppo as upgrading as well. For example I no longer use my old cd player because the Oppo is simply that good at playing audio discs. Similarly, because it has on board decoding one can also rid themselves of other dated components. In the end a lot depends upon what it is one wants to upgrade. Take care. J




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