Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk, like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community, but don't worry this is a simple free process that requires minimal information for you to signup. Be a part of DBSTalk by signing in or creating an account.
  • Start new topics and reply to others
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get email updates
  • Get your own profile page and make new friends
  • Send personal messages to other members.
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

Any chance for better SD?

sat-go

  • Please log in to reply
55 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   pablo

pablo

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 892 posts
Joined: Oct 11, 2007

Posted 12 February 2010 - 10:26 AM

I know most here are concerned with HD, and so am I. But there are some channels that are still SD and will remain so for the foreseeable future. Additionally, my parents, who are Russian-speaking, subscribe to the RussianDirect II package, and those eight Russian SD channels look terrible. We all know DirecTV's SD quality has become nearly unwatchable, especially as compared with HD. But even other providers' SD channels look comparatively better. So, while everyone's priorities are understandably with HD right now, I wonder if D12 means anything for improving SD quality?

...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#2 OFFLINE   pappy97

pappy97

    Icon

  • No PM's
  • 605 posts
Joined: Nov 14, 2009

Posted 12 February 2010 - 11:00 AM

I know most here are concerned with HD, and so am I. But there are some channels that are still SD and will remain so for the foreseeable future. Additionally, my parents, who are Russian-speaking, subscribe to the RussianDirect II package, and those eight Russian SD channels look terrible. We all know DirecTV's SD quality has become nearly unwatchable, especially as compared with HD. But even other providers' SD channels look comparatively better. So, while everyone's priorities are understandably with HD right now, I wonder if D12 means anything for improving SD quality?


My understanding is that no matter what, PQ of internationals will also suffer. Frankly DirecTV understands that it's the content that gets subs to international packages, and not PQ/AQ. Even if it's barely watchable it will get the same amount of subs as if it had high quality SD or HD.

AFAIK, D12 won't improve SD quality at all, let alone for internationals.
My setup (TV + DirecTV):
Master Bedroom: LG 32" 120hz LCD TV, GENIE Client
Living room: Samsung 46" 120hz LED LCD TV 7000 series, GENIE Master
Dedicated HT: Epson 8700UB projector with 150" 16:9 painted on screen and 180" 2.4:1 painted on screen, HD-DVR (HR22), Denon AVR-890, Klipsch Icon Front Speakers, Center Speaker, and Klipsch Icon Floorstanders for side and rear speakers (6 total floorstanders), subwoofer is BIC America V-1220 12" down-firing sub

#3 OFFLINE   Avder

Avder

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 1,395 posts
Joined: Feb 06, 2010

Posted 12 February 2010 - 11:09 AM

Aren't the SD channels eventually going to get switched over to MPEG4? And if so, will they get the same bitrate as they do now in MPEG2? Or is D* just going to end up squishing it further, so it looks just as crappy in MPEG4 as it does now?

#4 OFFLINE   pablo

pablo

    Icon

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 892 posts
Joined: Oct 11, 2007

Posted 12 February 2010 - 12:44 PM

Switching SD channels to a better codec would be just awesome, if it's something like upconverted SD we see on many HD channels.

#5 OFFLINE   harsh

harsh

    Beware the Attack Basset

  • Registered
  • 17,840 posts
  • LocationSalem, OR
Joined: Jun 14, 2003

Posted 12 February 2010 - 12:57 PM

D12 should have no impact on SD PQ. What's going to have to happen there is that DIRECTV is going to have to start using some of their available space on 110W and/or 119W.

Because most of it is SD and MPEG2, those who watch it have that kind of equipment. Forcing them all to upgrade to HD equipment to get better looking SD programming is a tough road.

The solution is probably to look to one of the alternative sources.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#6 OFFLINE   oldcrooner

oldcrooner

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 268 posts
Joined: Feb 23, 2004

Posted 12 February 2010 - 01:39 PM

I have said it before and I'll now say it again....Directv should be very ashamed of the abominable video quality of its SD programming. I've been a Directv subscriber for over a decade and I know it was not always so. It was never as good as that of Primestar which they assimilated but was quite acceptable. Over the years the quality slowly turned into dreck. I'm a big fan of HD but I continue to feel cheated by the picture quality of channels that are not available in HD. Why they feel this is an acceptable way to do business I will never understand. :( They should be actively working towards correcting this bad situation by whatever means necessary.
Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt.
--Ambrose Bierce

#7 OFFLINE   P Smith

P Smith

    Mr. FixAnything

  • Registered
  • 19,393 posts
  • LocationBay Area
Joined: Jul 25, 2002

Posted 12 February 2010 - 02:36 PM

Because ppl still watching and still pay for the bad SD. Only money shortage could change the trend. But afraid it will just cease those international channels.

#8 OFFLINE   mdavej

mdavej

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 2,227 posts
Joined: Jan 30, 2007

Posted 12 February 2010 - 02:49 PM

Terrible SD PQ is the number one reason I'm jumping to U-verse if it ever gets to my street. Cable in my area has even worse SD than D* and FIOS will never come, so U-verse is my only other option. I know my HD streams are limited with U-verse, but I only need 2 streams, and their SD is excellent. If D* would dial back the SD compression a little and catch up on HD content, I'd be a happy camper.

#9 OFFLINE   ejjames

ejjames

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 896 posts
Joined: Oct 02, 2006

Posted 12 February 2010 - 03:37 PM

When I was at USSB, we took pride in our quality. I could switch back and forth between out downlink and return signal and, aside from the delay, could not tell the difference.

Then again, we only had about 30 channels about 5 per transponder, so we could be generous. The technology was very different 10 years ago. I don't know if we could have "down rezed" to 480x480 even if we wanted to.
Former USSB uplink operator.

USSB from '95 to '99

DirecTv since '95

#10 OFFLINE   kevinturcotte

kevinturcotte

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,940 posts
  • LocationOutside Portland, ME
Joined: Dec 19, 2006

Posted 12 February 2010 - 03:47 PM

How much room would be available for SD channels of 119 and 110 if they removed all the HD programming today? What would be nice is if they took some of the SD channels that already have an HD equivalent and moved them onto 119 and 110. That way, those who only get 99, 101, and 103 wouldn't be missing any channels since they're already in HD, and it would free up some bandwidth on 101.

#11 OFFLINE   RAD

RAD

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 15,801 posts
  • LocationDripping Springs, TX
Joined: Aug 05, 2002

Posted 12 February 2010 - 04:02 PM

How much room would be available for SD channels of 119 and 110 if they removed all the HD programming today? What would be nice is if they took some of the SD channels that already have an HD equivalent and moved them onto 119 and 110. That way, those who only get 99, 101, and 103 wouldn't be missing any channels since they're already in HD, and it would free up some bandwidth on 101.


Then what do you do for the majority of DirecTV customers that don't have HD service, only SD? DirecTV would then need to have a truck roll to replace the 101 only dish that's installed with a new dish and also replace receivers. If you're going to do that why not just replace all the MPEG2 only STB's with MPEG2/4 boxes and then switch all the channels to MPEG4 and gain a ton of capacity?

See post My Setup for configuration info.


#12 OFFLINE   kevinturcotte

kevinturcotte

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,940 posts
  • LocationOutside Portland, ME
Joined: Dec 19, 2006

Posted 12 February 2010 - 04:05 PM

Then what do you do for the majority of DirecTV customers that don't have HD service, only SD? DirecTV would then need to have a truck roll to replace the 101 only dish that's installed with a new dish and also replace receivers. If you're going to do that why not just replace all the MPEG2 only STB's with MPEG2/4 boxes and then switch all the channels to MPEG4 and gain a ton of capacity?


Why would you have to replace receivers? Can't all receivers see 110 and 119? And how many SD only customers have the original round dish? I did just discover the main problem though. Those with 99, 101, and 103 LNBs that also have SD receivers. Those receivers wouldn't be able to see the additional SD channels.

#13 OFFLINE   curt8403

curt8403

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 4,481 posts
Joined: Dec 27, 2007

Posted 12 February 2010 - 04:06 PM

Then what do you do for the majority of DirecTV customers that don't have HD service, only SD? DirecTV would then need to have a truck roll to replace the 101 only dish that's installed with a new dish and also replace receivers. If you're going to do that why not just replace all the MPEG2 only STB's with MPEG2/4 boxes and then switch all the channels to MPEG4 and gain a ton of capacity?

wowzers. the existing SD sats cannot be upgraded to handle the MPEG 4 signal and so going to all MPEG4 would toast the existing sats/
even though SD may be an issue with Directv it is still better than the SD on Crumcrash
I am no longer connected with Directv or any other satellite provider

#14 OFFLINE   kevinturcotte

kevinturcotte

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,940 posts
  • LocationOutside Portland, ME
Joined: Dec 19, 2006

Posted 12 February 2010 - 04:09 PM

wowzers. the existing SD sats cannot be upgraded to handle the MPEG 4 signal and so going to all MPEG4 would toast the existing sats/
even though SD may be an issue with Directv it is still better than the SD on Crumcrash


Existing satellites would be fine if they went to ALL MPEG-4 right now, right? They're just passing a signal. It's the LNBs and receivers that would have a problem.

#15 OFFLINE   raoul5788

raoul5788

    Guest

  • Registered
  • 1,481 posts
Joined: May 13, 2006

Posted 12 February 2010 - 04:13 PM

wowzers. the existing SD sats cannot be upgraded to handle the MPEG 4 signal and so going to all MPEG4 would toast the existing sats/
even though SD may be an issue with Directv it is still better than the SD on Crumcrash


The satellite doesn't care if the signal is encoded with mpeg2, mpeg4, or mpeg4000. It's the receiver that needs to be compatible. Now if you are talking about ka or ku, that's a different story.

#16 OFFLINE   P Smith

P Smith

    Mr. FixAnything

  • Registered
  • 19,393 posts
  • LocationBay Area
Joined: Jul 25, 2002

Posted 12 February 2010 - 04:27 PM

Back to the topic: chances are nil.

:backtotop

#17 OFFLINE   raoul5788

raoul5788

    Guest

  • Registered
  • 1,481 posts
Joined: May 13, 2006

Posted 12 February 2010 - 04:34 PM

Back to the topic: chances are nil.

:backtotop


I wouldn't say nil. EVENTUALLY, there will be a conversion to mpeg4 even for sd, I think. That should significantly improve pq.

#18 OFFLINE   kevinturcotte

kevinturcotte

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,940 posts
  • LocationOutside Portland, ME
Joined: Dec 19, 2006

Posted 12 February 2010 - 04:39 PM

I wouldn't say nil. EVENTUALLY, there will be a conversion to mpeg4 even for sd, I think. That should significantly improve pq.


Course, by that time, what will actually be left in SD? No actual requirement for channels to put out an HD version of their channel, but competition pretty much requires it.

#19 OFFLINE   P Smith

P Smith

    Mr. FixAnything

  • Registered
  • 19,393 posts
  • LocationBay Area
Joined: Jul 25, 2002

Posted 12 February 2010 - 04:43 PM

I wouldn't say nil. EVENTUALLY, there will be a conversion to mpeg4 even for sd, I think. That should significantly improve pq.

The rule is GIGO.
As you probably aware, dish implement the switchover SD MPEG-2 to SD MPEG-4 for EA customers. I don't see any reports about "significantly improve pq" on SD channels. Zilch, nada, nil.

#20 OFFLINE   pablo

pablo

    Icon

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 892 posts
Joined: Oct 11, 2007

Posted 12 February 2010 - 04:55 PM

What would it take for DirecTV to have SD close to upconverted SD quality? Is that even feasible?




spam firewall