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Comcast Philadelphia


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#101 OFFLINE   Grafixguy

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 11:39 AM

Why do you believe that Verizon is a cable company? If so, please explain in detail how the technology that Verizon uses is the same as what cable companies use.


Verizon is still legally treated like a cable company everywhere. They have to negotiate franchise agreement anywhere they wish to offer the service.

As for the technology, they simply bring fiber further toward the home than cable companies that bring it into various areas and then use copper. Verizon uses fiber to the home before it hits copper.

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#102 OFFLINE   Beerstalker

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 11:42 AM

Wrong again. The terrestrial loophole allows the owner of a channel not distributed via satellite to not sell it to competitors.

Cablevision is using it against FiOS with MSG and MSG+ HD and Comcast is using it in Philly against DTV and Dish.


This is the way I understand it also. Because they own the cable/fiber it is being transmitted on between sites, they don't have to allow their competitors to access it.

For channels that they uplink to satellites they are using the airwaves that are the property of the USA and under the control of the FCC, so the FCC says in order to use those airwaves you have to share the content.

Now the FCC is saying that they have to share the stuff that is being transmitted on the cable companies own property, and they don't like that. They will fight it in court and they should technically win. It should take new legislation to close this loophole. The FCC should not be able to arbitrarily interpret or change laws as they see fit. Those are the jobs of the Judicial and Legislative branches.

#103 OFFLINE   Grafixguy

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 11:43 AM

FIOS could use the signal if they wanted, but their HD capacity for sports packages is quite limited.


Their capacity is fine, it's InDemand, from whom they purchase the packages that only supplies two channels of HD. And the second was only added very recently.

And this is not about sports packages. It's about full time channels and Verizon is fighting tooth and nail to get the HD feeds for MSG and MSG+.

#104 OFFLINE   Grafixguy

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 11:46 AM

The FCC should not be able to arbitrarily interpret or change laws as they see fit. Those are the jobs of the Judicial and Legislative branches.


It's just a matter of time anyway. Comcast and Cablevision are both using arbitrary methods to sell these channels. If they were actually keeping them as exclusives they'd have a case. But their current behavior is anti-competitive and therefore anti-consumer in nature.

Whether it's the FCC or congress, something will be done. How long that takes is anyone's guess.

#105 OFFLINE   Grafixguy

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 11:49 AM

I just have to laugh everytime I see that Center Ice commerical with the two Flyer fans happy they can watch their team.....they wish.


They can watch them...as long as the other team is televising it. :D

#106 OFFLINE   Beerstalker

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 11:58 AM

It's just a matter of time anyway. Comcast and Cablevision are both using arbitrary methods to sell these channels. If they were actually keeping them as exclusives they'd have a case. But their current behavior is anti-competitive and therefore anti-consumer in nature.

Whether it's the FCC or congress, something will be done. How long that takes is anyone's guess.


True, once they started selling those channels to other providers (whose service boundaries usually don't overlap with their own) they did open a can of worms. I agree that it would start becoming anti-competitive and it does require investigation and possible new legislation.

I'm just not a fan of all these executive branch divisions that suddenly feel like they can make up their own rules. The EPA and FCC have really started to go overboard in this area over the last decade or so in my opinion.

I guess I'm starting to get a bit too political here though so I should stop.

#107 OFFLINE   tonyd79

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 01:04 PM

Wrong again. The terrestrial loophole allows the owner of a channel not distributed via satellite to not sell it to competitors.

Cablevision is using it against FiOS with MSG and MSG+ HD and Comcast is using it in Philly against DTV and Dish.


No, the loophole is only in regard to DBS systems such as DirecTV and Dish. The MSG is plain hardass negogiation.
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#108 OFFLINE   Grafixguy

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 01:43 PM

No, the loophole is only in regard to DBS systems such as DirecTV and Dish. The MSG is plain hardass negogiation.


You're wrong. If you were correct, then the HD feeds would have been included in the original complaint that forced Cablevision to supply the SD feeds.

#109 OFFLINE   patman99

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 02:11 PM

Comcast already came out last week and said that they will not appeal. The only question now is how long this will take. It took 6+ months to get the Vs issue taken care of.

#110 OFFLINE   Grafixguy

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 02:36 PM

Comcast already came out last week and said that they will not appeal. The only question now is how long this will take. It took 6+ months to get the Vs issue taken care of.


That's a different issue. That's a programming access issue that the loophole applies to. It's only for satellite fed programming.

That it's been upheld is a good precedent, but it doesn't mean anything as far as CSN Philly goes.

#111 OFFLINE   TheRatPatrol

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 07:16 PM

Yes, they had to. The loophole CSN Philly is using is a satellite loophole, not a terristerial loophole.

Which is interesting, because D* already receives their signal via fiber for MLBEI, or at least they were 2 seasons ago.

Wrong again. The terrestrial loophole allows the owner of a channel not distributed via satellite to not sell it to competitors.

Cablevision is using it against FiOS with MSG and MSG+ HD and Comcast is using it in Philly against DTV and Dish.

Another interesting point, D* receives MSG HD via fiber, its not delivered via satellite, or so I've read on here somewhere. So I can see Verizon having issues with this.

#112 OFFLINE   jlosh

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 09:27 AM

Comcast already came out last week and said that they will not appeal. The only question now is how long this will take. It took 6+ months to get the Vs issue taken care of.


I hope it doesn't take that long, but then again, we've been shutout for so long what's another couple of months?

#113 OFFLINE   tonyd79

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 10:16 AM

Which is interesting, because D* already receives their signal via fiber for MLBEI, or at least they were 2 seasons ago.


Another interesting point, D* receives MSG HD via fiber, its not delivered via satellite, or so I've read on here somewhere. So I can see Verizon having issues with this.


Point 1. Yes, not sure why this does not close the loophole because the CSN Philly signal is retransmitted via satellite for those few Phillies games and for 76ers and Flyers also, I believe. That means the signal is no longer terresterial only.

Point 2. Again, this ruins the MSG/Fios issue. MSG is claiming that Fios distributes via satellite. Hello.... But then again, MSG does what it wants and ignores contracts. See the Center Ice debacle.
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#114 OFFLINE   jpl

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 11:41 AM

Here are my two cents on what I'm reading in the last several posts. First, from a legal perspective, Verizon FiOS IS considered cable. They're beholden to all the same cable regulations that the other cable companies are (e.g. separable security in their cable boxes), and they have to negotiate franchise agreements just like every other cable company does.

Does that mean that it doesn't differ from traditional cable? No, it doesn't mean that at all. They use QAM to deliver their linear TV channels, just like traditional cable companies do, but to claim that the only difference is how far they string the fiber is wrong. Because the fiber goes to your home, they have options that traditional cable companies don't. For example the fiber can carry alot more data than coax can. As a result, that QAM space that Verizon uses is JUST for linear TV feeds. And nothing else. Traditional cable companies use that QAM space for everything digital - linear TV channels... guide data... VOD... any interactive capability... voice service... internet. Verizon doesn't. They use frequencies outside that QAM space to handle everything BUT linear TV channel feeds. That means that they have alot more space to play with for TV feeds than traditional cable companies do.

Also, their architecture is different from a service perspective. They treat their set top boxes like thin clients. When I search for a program, e.g., I'm not searching against the guide data currently stored in my box. It goes to their servers which do the search for me. Wonder why Verizon's service (things like channel changes, and guide scrolls) are so fast? And they are fast. That's why. They don't rely on the STB to do all that work. That's an architecture that traditional cable companies can't mimic.

Next, as for the loophole and MSG HD... to the person who said that Verizon isn't offering MSG HD because they just don't have the space... um... what? Who brought this initial case to the FCC, and for what purpose? It was Verizon who brought, as a complaint specifically against CV. Granted, the case dealt with RSN availability in general, but make no mistake, it was CV's holding out of MSG HD that forced this whole thing to come to a head. Verizon has already committed to carrying the channel when all of this gets resolved (and MSG+ HD too). They have the space reserved for both.

So... Verizon was the company that brought this to get rid of the terrestrial loophole BECAUSE they want MSG HD and MSG+ HD.

Finally, the reason Verizon doesn't carry TCN (The Comcast Network) isn't because they're denied the channel. Comcast has opened up that channel to everyone. DirecTV could take it if they wanted. The thing is... Verizon (and other providers) have declined to carry the channel for now (although I understand Verizon is considering it).

#115 OFFLINE   JoeTheDragon

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 03:55 PM

Finally, the reason Verizon doesn't carry TCN (The Comcast Network) isn't because they're denied the channel. Comcast has opened up that channel to everyone. DirecTV could take it if they wanted. The thing is... Verizon (and other providers) have declined to carry the channel for now (although I understand Verizon is considering it).


Are the games on it open to all or are they a OVER flow feed that just uses it space?

CLTV was comcasat only for a long time but the CSN + games that use it's space where and still are on other systems.
I want CLTV / CLTV HD on direct tv.

#116 OFFLINE   Grafixguy

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 04:07 PM

Point 1. Yes, not sure why this does not close the loophole because the CSN Philly signal is retransmitted via satellite for those few Phillies games and for 76ers and Flyers also, I believe. That means the signal is no longer terresterial only.

Point 2. Again, this ruins the MSG/Fios issue. MSG is claiming that Fios distributes via satellite. Hello.... But then again, MSG does what it wants and ignores contracts. See the Center Ice debacle.


1. The main signal that is distributed to other MSOs is not done via satellite. Verizon has a direct fiber connection. Select games being sent via satellite don't count.

2. MSG is not making any such claims. They are taking advantage of the terrestrial loophole to refuse to negotiate carriage agreements for the HD feeds of MSG and MSG+ to Verizon as well as ATT (DISH may simply be refusing to pay for them, they don't carry YES, either).

The terrestrial loophole doesn't differentiate between cable companies and DBS companies There seems to be a great deal of confusion because of the ruling that was upheld last week. It's a different ruling and only applies to programming distributed via satellite.

If the closing of the loophole is upheld and survives the probable court challenges then Cablevision and Comcast will be forced to negotiate carriage agreements with Verizon, ATT, Dish and DirecTV. Those agreements will have to be comparable to agreements with other providers and to their own internal bookkeeping.

Until that happens you're not going to see MSG or MSG+ in HD on FiOS nor will you see CSN Philly on DirecTV.

#117 OFFLINE   wilbur_the_goose

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 05:58 PM

Grafixguy - Bingo! Very well said.

#118 OFFLINE   jpl

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 07:53 PM

Are the games on it open to all or are they a OVER flow feed that just uses it space?

CLTV was comcasat only for a long time but the CSN + games that use it's space where and still are on other systems.


From what I understand, TCN is just a repackaged CN8 - their old local channel. It has overflow games when there are conflicts of stuff that's to be showed on CSN.

#119 OFFLINE   jpl

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 07:53 PM

1. The main signal that is distributed to other MSOs is not done via satellite. Verizon has a direct fiber connection. Select games being sent via satellite don't count.

2. MSG is not making any such claims. They are taking advantage of the terrestrial loophole to refuse to negotiate carriage agreements for the HD feeds of MSG and MSG+ to Verizon as well as ATT (DISH may simply be refusing to pay for them, they don't carry YES, either).

The terrestrial loophole doesn't differentiate between cable companies and DBS companies There seems to be a great deal of confusion because of the ruling that was upheld last week. It's a different ruling and only applies to programming distributed via satellite.

If the closing of the loophole is upheld and survives the probable court challenges then Cablevision and Comcast will be forced to negotiate carriage agreements with Verizon, ATT, Dish and DirecTV. Those agreements will have to be comparable to agreements with other providers and to their own internal bookkeeping.

Until that happens you're not going to see MSG or MSG+ in HD on FiOS nor will you see CSN Philly on DirecTV.


This is exactly right.

#120 OFFLINE   dvdmth

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 10:17 PM

From what I understand, TCN is just a repackaged CN8 - their old local channel. It has overflow games when there are conflicts of stuff that's to be showed on CSN.


Similar to what Comcast does in Denver when Altitude has two games at once. The overflow goes to CET (Comcast Entertainment Television), which is SD only. DirecTV, meanwhile, carries the overflow games in HD.




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