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Guest Message by DevFuse

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1080p instead of 3D!


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97 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Rikinky

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 09:15 AM

Ok some friends and I were discussing how it would be cool if they decided to broadcast in 1080p rather than this 3D stuff coming out. How cool would it be if they designated 1080p channels (kinda like they are supposed to do with the 3D). I mean could you imagine ESPN 1080P or National Geographic, Discovery or your pick in 1080p? Now that would be exciting to me rather than the 3D, that has alreay flopped once in history. ...Just a thought!! Oh I thought of some more Premiums in 1080p. Dream on dream away.....

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#2 OFFLINE   wilbur_the_goose

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 12:41 PM

Seriously - can you, in a double-blind test, tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p?

#3 OFFLINE   Rikinky

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 01:11 PM

Actually when it comes to 720p and 1080i. I can tell a huge difference, case in point when i'm watching a basketball or football game on a station that is being broadcasted in 1080i vs 720p I can immediately notice a much more smooth and less choppy picture on 1080i rather than 720p. So to answer your question. Personally Yes I can. I know I compared 1080i to 720p, however same concept really.

#4 OFFLINE   hilmar2k

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 01:19 PM

Actually when it comes to 720p and 1080i. I can tell a huge difference, case in point when i'm watching a basketball or football game on a station that is being broadcasted in 1080i vs 720p I can immediately notice a much more smooth and less choppy picture on 1080i rather than 720p. So to answer your question. Personally Yes I can. I know I compared 1080i to 720p, however same concept really.


That's funny, I find that sports look better on 720p. There is a reason, after all, that ESPN and Fox Sports chose it as its format.

At the end of the day, the format is almost irrelevant, be it 720p, 1080i, or 1080p/24. Almost nop one can honestly say that any of them is that much better than another. Get me more content, and we can worry about the format later.

EDIT: And by the way, you completely lost me when you said that 1080i is less choppy than 720p. Not possible. Anything i is going to be less smooth than anything p.

#5 OFFLINE   jonesron

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 01:39 PM

That's funny, I find that sports look better on 720p. There is a reason, after all, that ESPN and Fox Sports chose it as its format.

At the end of the day, the format is almost irrelevant, be it 720p, 1080i, or 1080p/24. Almost nop one can honestly say that any of them is that much better than another. Get me more content, and we can worry about the format later.

EDIT: And by the way, you completely lost me when you said that 1080i is less choppy than 720p. Not possible. Anything i is going to be less smooth than anything p.


Sports look better to some people in 720p (as compared to 1080i) because 720p uses 60 frames per second as compared to 1080i's 30 frames per second. As a result fast motion looks better with less artifacts. However, I find for typical TV dramas 1080i looks much better as compared to 720p. This is when viewed on my 120 inch screen using an Epson 1080p front projector at a 13 ft. viewing distance. The image on such shows as 24 and Lost (Fox and ABC both broadcast in 720p) looks soft as compared to well make dramas on CBS and NBC (both 1080i). When viewed on my smaller 1080p HDTVs (e.g. 65 inch at approx. 12 ft. viewing distance) the difference is less visible. Directv HD STBs and DVRs already support 1080p/24 for some movies but none of the cable networks (e.g., HBO, USA, etc.) distribute programs in this format. Ideally for sports 1080p/60 would be used but this requires much more bandwidth (higher data rates) that 720p or 1080i or 1080p/24 which is alway a concern for satellite providers. Also 1080p/60 is not part of either the over-the-air ATSC broadcast standard nor even the Blu-ray Disc standard for the recorded content. The approach being used by Directv (and cable companies) to carry 3D is to limit the right and left images to half resolution (half the total number of pixels per image) allowing the 3D video to be carried in a data steam at the same data rate as normal 1080i.

Edited by jonesron, 12 March 2010 - 01:46 PM.

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#6 OFFLINE   Crypter

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 01:40 PM

That's funny, I find that sports look better on 720p. There is a reason, after all, that ESPN and Fox Sports chose it as its format.

At the end of the day, the format is almost irrelevant, be it 720p, 1080i, or 1080p/24. Almost nop one can honestly say that any of them is that much better than another. Get me more content, and we can worry about the format later.

EDIT: And by the way, you completely lost me when you said that 1080i is less choppy than 720p. Not possible. Anything i is going to be less smooth than anything p.


Well that is not exactly accurate. Since most TV's do a good job of generating a Progressive scan image from an Interlaced signal you should not be able to tell the difference from a P or I input. Which also sort of feeds into the questions asked in post #2 in this thread where I think most people would not be able to tell the difference between a 1080i and a 1080p broadcast. Of course, you can tell the difference from a Blu-Ray to a broadcast because of the MUCH higher bitrate.

But to me a 1080p channel would probably be worthless unless they upped the bitrate substantially.

#7 OFFLINE   matt

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 01:51 PM

Seriously - can you, in a double-blind test, tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p?


I guess if I were double blind they would look the same.
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#8 OFFLINE   texasbrit

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 02:17 PM

Well that is not exactly accurate. Since most TV's do a good job of generating a Progressive scan image from an Interlaced signal you should not be able to tell the difference from a P or I input. Which also sort of feeds into the questions asked in post #2 in this thread where I think most people would not be able to tell the difference between a 1080i and a 1080p broadcast. Of course, you can tell the difference from a Blu-Ray to a broadcast because of the MUCH higher bitrate.

But to me a 1080p channel would probably be worthless unless they upped the bitrate substantially.


Although the TV will generate a progressive scan display from a 1080i signal it can't remove the interlacing artifacts associated with 1080i. For fast movement with 1080i, the picture content will have moved between line n and line (n+1) of the picture and this movement will still be there when the TV outputs its progressive scanned picture.
If a TV has a good pulldown system, you should not see any difference between 1080i and 1080p/24 on the same film-based material, because the information content is the same, and there are no interlacing motion artifacts (because the original film material is only 24fps) . But the picture quality on the 1080p movies delivered by DirecTV via VOD is generally better than those only available in 1080i on PPV, because the available bandwidth is much higher (since it comes via internet not via satellite). That's nothing to do with 1080p vs 1080i. It's why 1080p movies from DirecTV are not as good as BluRay.

#9 OFFLINE   joed32

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 02:21 PM

Ok some friends and I were discussing how it would be cool if they decided to broadcast in 1080p rather than this 3D stuff coming out. How cool would it be if they designated 1080p channels (kinda like they are supposed to do with the 3D). I mean could you imagine ESPN 1080P or National Geographic, Discovery or your pick in 1080p? Now that would be exciting to me rather than the 3D, that has alreay flopped once in history. ...Just a thought!! Oh I thought of some more Premiums in 1080p. Dream on dream away.....


Problem is no one broadcasts anything in 1080p so there are no channels to add. If some one does start to broadcast in 1080p they could add it.

#10 OFFLINE   Hutchinshouse

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 02:24 PM

That's funny, I find that sports look better on 720p. There is a reason, after all, that ESPN and Fox Sports chose it as its format.

At the end of the day, the format is almost irrelevant, be it 720p, 1080i, or 1080p/24. Almost nop one can honestly say that any of them is that much better than another. Get me more content, and we can worry about the format later.

EDIT: And by the way, you completely lost me when you said that 1080i is less choppy than 720p. Not possible. Anything i is going to be less smooth than anything p.


I find the opposite is true. Sports look so much sharper in 1080.

CBS HD smokes FOX and ESPH HD any day of the week. I’m talking sat feed, I do not have OTA.

My opinion, 3D will die just like SACD and DVD-A.

#11 OFFLINE   hilmar2k

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 02:25 PM

Problem is no one broadcasts anything in 1080p so there are no channels to add. If some one does start to broadcast in 1080p they could add it.


And there is no reason not to add it since 1080p/24 actually uses less bandwidth than either 720p or 1080i do. We aren't going to see 1080p/60 anytime soon since none of the current hardware supports it.

#12 OFFLINE   Maruuk

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 02:26 PM

Sports looks awful in 720p compared to 1080i, unless you've got a 720p set. Then you're stuck with it so I suppose it looks fine. 720p is downright blurry on a 1080p set. Duh, handing away that much resolution is gonna do that. Never seen any improvement whatsoever in smoothness between 720p and 1080i--the progressive scan improvement is all theory, in practice zero effect. And I watch hockey in 1080i all the time, fastest game in the world, perfectly smooth.

Every now and then I'll click over to see a few seconds of NASCAR on ABC, or a football game on ESPN. All 720p. The backgrounds, the little details are all blurred out. You lose the whole "it's real" factor of HDTV, which to me is what it's all about. It's just watching TV, not HD. Then switch over too say a PGA event on NBC-HD in 1080i: stunning, crystal clarity--all the little details, the blades of grass, the tiny ball, the trees, the crowd--all sharp and approaching reality--like you're watching through a window. No comparison to 720p--it doesn't deserve to even be called HD--that blurry mess ought to be really called ED. There's a reason the term "Full HD" has been coined to describe 1080i/1080p. Anything less and your TV's glass is definitely half-full.

Of course the next step should be 1080p, or the even higher resolutions being pioneered now out of Japan and South Korea. Screw 3D on TVs. Imagine having a few friends over and having to wire EVERYONE up with those awkward and heavy shutter glasses! But I am pleased that I can get most PPV flix from D* in 1080p. And of course all the Blu-Rays out now. And the players are $98 at Walmart. A great start.

Edited by Maruuk, 12 March 2010 - 02:34 PM.


#13 OFFLINE   hilmar2k

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 02:29 PM

I find the opposite is true. Sports look so much sharper in 1080.

CBS HD smokes FOX and ESPH HD any day of the week. I’m talking sat feed, I do not have OTA.

My opinion, 3D will die just like SACD and DVD-A.


Sports looks awful in 720p compared to 1080i, unless you've got a 720p set. Then you're stuck with it so I suppose it looks fine. 720p is downright blurry on a 1080p set. Duh, handing away that much resolution is gonna do that. Never seen any improvement whatsoever in smoothness between 720p and 1080i--the progressive scan improvement is all theory, in practice zero effect. And I watch hockey in 1080i all the time, fastest game in the world, perfectly smooth.

Of course the next step should be 1080p, or the even higher resolutions being pioneered now out of Japan and South Korea. Screw 3D on TVs. Imagine having a few friends over and having to wire EVERYONE up with the awkward and heavy shutter glasses! But I am pleased that I can get most PPV flix from D* in 1080p. A great start.


Every time I read people say they prefer 1080i over 720p, I try to figure out what they are seeing. Then Sunday comes along and I am stuck watching the Patriots plan on CBS and the PQ is downright terrible. I flip to a Fox game and it is so much better. I cannot fathom how people think 1080i is better.

But hey, that's just me (and ESPN, and Fox ;))

#14 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 02:30 PM

Bitrate is far, far, far more important than 720p vs 1080i.
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#15 OFFLINE   Maruuk

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:04 PM

All my Fox and ESPN 720p sports look like ED crap, all the other nets' sports (including NHL on Comcast) in 1080i look awesome. Fortunately I wouldn't watch NASCAR if they paid me and I only occasionally get stuck watching any other sports on Fox/ESPN so life is good. Thank god the Olympics weren't in Fox Blur-O-Vision!

#16 OFFLINE   hilmar2k

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:08 PM

All my Fox and ESPN 720p sports look like ED crap, all the other nets' sports (including NHL on Comcast) in 1080i look awesome. Fortunately I wouldn't watch NASCAR if they paid me and I only occasionally get stuck watching any other sports on Fox/ESPN so life is good. Thank god the Olympics weren't in Fox Blur-O-Vision!


Native on or off? There is just no conceivable way that what I see on Fox and ESPN could ever be described as "ED crap".

#17 OFFLINE   Maruuk

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:10 PM

Certainly bitrate is a direct factor on resolution. I hear a lot of whining about D* really only providing a max of 1440X1080, I think that's the MP4 limit or something. All I know is when I compare D* 1080i to my local OTA 1080i they look about the same--really good. But the PPV movies seem to get extra bandwidth/bit rate, they are first class all the way. And the 1080p flicks on PPV are clearly superior resolution-wise. I suspect you're getting full bandwidth 1920X1080 there.

#18 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:13 PM

Certainly bitrate is a direct factor on resolution. I hear a lot of whining about D* really only providing a max of 1440X1080, I think that's the MP4 limit or something. All I know is when I compare D* 1080i to my local OTA 1080i they look about the same--really good. But the PPV movies seem to get extra bandwidth/bit rate, they are first class all the way. And the 1080p flicks on PPV are clearly superior resolution-wise. I suspect you're getting full bandwidth 1920X1080 there.


That is Dish Network...not DirecTV.
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#19 OFFLINE   GlennDio

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:13 PM

Native on or off? There is just no conceivable way that what I see on Fox and ESPN could ever be described as "ED crap".


curious are you Native on or off? ... I am Native on and on both of my bigger sony's (46 and 50) 1080i is a little better IMHO but 720p isn't blurry crap by any stretch of the imagination

#20 OFFLINE   Maruuk

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:14 PM

Hm, good question. I believe I have Native on all the time. It makes channel-changing hideously slow, but relieves me of having to do manual switching. I have a Vizio 42" 1080p set.

Don't get me wrong--a TV show like Ugly Betty in 720p looks fine. Anything that emphasizes characters large in frame: one-shots/two-shots/closeups looks fine in 720p.

But the moment you go to sports where wide shots and tiny background details come to the fore--that's a whole nuther ballgame, as it were. Then you really see the difference bigtime. It's crystal clear...or not.




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