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Guest Message by DevFuse

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1080p instead of 3D!


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97 replies to this topic

#26 OFFLINE   bagreene

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:28 PM

Well there's always going to be a lot of variation in the TVs--plasma/LCD/different dithering systems and standards. Maybe there's some really expensive TVs that can do some kind of magic with 720p, mine sure can't!


I will agree that there are definitely way too many variables to say for sure if 720p vs. 1080i is what makes the difference in what we end up seeing on our screens. TV type, TV settings, HR settings, LIL quality, bit rates, etc. etc. just to name a few.

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#27 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:29 PM

I don't know, I've read a lot of posts from forum pros here who discuss the de facto resolution limits inherent in the D* implementation of MP4, and they seem to agree on this inherent 1440 or so limit on the horizontal rez. But I'm no expert. I'd like to think they were sending me 1920!


No. DirecTV has not used HD-Lite for quite some time now.

DirecTV:

720p = 1280×720

1080i = 1920x1080


Dish Network:

720p = 1280×720

1080i = 1440x1080


Dish Network has not broadcast any content in the full 1080i resolution of 1920X1080 since 2007. On top of that, the amount of compression they employ is much higher as well.
DTV = Digital Television

#28 OFFLINE   mcees4life

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:30 PM

In my opinion, 1080i looks better than 720p when watching sports. I have D* as well and a 1080p LED tv. Watching a NBA game on TNT absolutely craps on a ESPN or ABC game. The picture quality is like night and day. You definately dont get the extra crispness in 720p that you would get in 1080i. I have my resolution set on "native" as well.

#29 OFFLINE   Hutchinshouse

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:33 PM

Every time I read people say they prefer 1080i over 720p, I try to figure out what they are seeing. Then Sunday comes along and I am stuck watching the Patriots plan on CBS and the PQ is downright terrible. I flip to a Fox game and it is so much better. I cannot fathom how people think 1080i is better.

But hey, that's just me (and ESPN, and Fox ;))


I can tell you I’m using HDMI (HDDVR set to native) with a properly calibrated TV (set to full pixel). AC power filter by my Panamax M5300-PM. I wear glasses just when watching TV because I want the picture as sharp as I can get it. I’m seated 11 feet from a 52” Sony XBR4. I’m very critical when it comes to picture quality, as I trust you are too. If I had to guess, the NY local affiliate feed and the LA local affiliate feed differ. From my chair, CBS is much sharper than FOX and ESPN. Obviously TVs play a huge part too. Some display 1080 better than 720, and vice versa. I can only tell you, here on the left coast, it’s not my imagination. There’s a clear difference. Peace my brother.

#30 OFFLINE   CorpITGuy

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:43 PM

I prefer 1080i. My brother tells me he prefers 720p. Tuh-may-toes/Tuh-mah-toes? Naaa. I just have a more discerning eye. ;)


[[And if you can't tell that I'm joking, go back and look at the post a few days ago where I said something like, "meh, HD Lite looks ok to me.]] :D
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#31 OFFLINE   JeffBowser

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:51 PM

Stuff shot on 16mm and converted to HD looks terrific. 16mm film is beautiful source for high res conversions.

Older PBS stuff shot in 16mm,


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A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions.

#32 OFFLINE   hilmar2k

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 05:44 PM

I think the bottom line is that some people prefer 1080i and some prefer 720p. This is reminiscent of the old Native On/Off debates of a couple of years ago. The only difference is that you don't have a choice in this one.

#33 OFFLINE   Skyboss

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 06:19 PM

Actually when it comes to 720p and 1080i. I can tell a huge difference, case in point when i'm watching a basketball or football game on a station that is being broadcasted in 1080i vs 720p I can immediately notice a much more smooth and less choppy picture on 1080i rather than 720p. So to answer your question. Personally Yes I can. I know I compared 1080i to 720p, however same concept really.


I have the reverse problem. When viewing 1080i sports its pixel hell for me on my 1080p set. 720p looks substantially better. I watched a CBS football game where it was snowing this last year and had to shut it off it was so bad.

Ultimately, 1080p on a 1080p set will probably deliver the best picture for fast motion games, the rest will likely look the same. Interestingly enough, the picture quality in my market was going to hell in a handbasket not long ago. Enough people had a fit and bang - better picture. Not sure what they did (equipment reset) or if they were testing adding another channel to the spot beam to see if people noticed and enough of us said "Oh hell no", but during the BCS I was going crazy on DirecTVs local picture quality - "Garbage in = Garbage Out".

Edited by Skyboss, 12 March 2010 - 06:26 PM.


#34 OFFLINE   Avder

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 07:50 PM

Personally I prefer 720p...over the air. My local Fox and ABC affiliates PQ smokes my local CBS and NBC affiliates PQ like nobodys business.

On DirecTV the PQ is about the same on both. 720 looks little smoother, but 1080 has a little more detail. For sports I would go with 720 tho, and for actual shows 1080.

#35 OFFLINE   wilbur_the_goose

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 09:25 PM

You know what I want - The BluRay audio codecs via HDMI. Now THAT would be beyond cool!

#36 OFFLINE   Jeremy W

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 10:28 PM

The reason 3D is the next big broadcast thing instead of true 1080p (1080p60) is because they can fit a 3D channel in the same amount of space a regular HD channel takes up.

#37 OFFLINE   Araxen

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 10:54 PM

If 1080p is TRULY that important to you than whatever Directv would put on the bird would pale in comparison to a Blu-Ray. The only thing Directv can broadcast in 1080p is movies and if you are a Die-hard PQ freak and you are settling for compressed video that Directv would broadcast in 1080p instead of Blu-Ray you are a hypocrite.
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#38 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 12:33 AM

Our 2.5 hour nightmare is over! DBS is back! :)
DTV = Digital Television

#39 OFFLINE   jponte55

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 12:57 AM

Hm, good question. I believe I have Native on all the time. It makes channel-changing hideously slow, but relieves me of having to do manual switching. I have a Vizio 42" 1080p set.

Don't get me wrong--a TV show like Ugly Betty in 720p looks fine. Anything that emphasizes characters large in frame: one-shots/two-shots/closeups looks fine in 720p.

But the moment you go to sports where wide shots and tiny background details come to the fore--that's a whole nuther ballgame, as it were. Then you really see the difference bigtime. It's crystal clear...or not.


To take advantage of anything over 720p you'd have to sit 5-6 feet away from your 42 inch set. That is a scientific fact. Now if your TV is doing a terrible job scaling 720p > 1080p then that's a whole other issue. And before anyone jumps in and says, "Its a Vizio, what do you expect!". I have a 37" Vizio in my gym and it does a nice job with both 720p and 1080i content. I actually use it with Sunday Ticket next to a 58" plasma and both 720p and 1080i look scrumptious on both TVs

#40 OFFLINE   Maruuk

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 03:17 AM

That's your scientific fact. Actually nonsense, no such "fact" exists. Unless you have the eyesight of a mole. My reality, as opposed to made up silliness, makes it abundantly clear that 720 looks significantly blurrier in the background details, or in wide shots, than the much-higher resolution 1080. Gosh, math actually works!

My set works beautifully, and renders resolutions accurately. As opposed to your "data" source.

#41 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 06:19 AM

That's your scientific fact. Actually nonsense, no such "fact" exists. Unless you have the eyesight of a mole. My reality, as opposed to made up silliness, makes it abundantly clear that 720 looks significantly blurrier in the background details, or in wide shots, than the much-higher resolution 1080. Gosh, math actually works!

My set works beautifully, and renders resolutions accurately. As opposed to your "data" source.


...actually there is a proper distance at which to sit from your display based on the size and resolution of the display.
DTV = Digital Television

#42 OFFLINE   scoop8

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 07:30 AM

...actually there is a proper distance at which to sit from your display based on the size and resolution of the display.


That's an interesting point (viewing dist). From plugging in my #"s on some 'net "viewing dist formula" sites, I'm not sitting at my optimum distance (I'm too close) (?), but my viewing room dimensions are set up to where I settled for my comfortable distance.

I'm watching a 50" Panny 1080p Plasma set from about 8.5-9.0 ft away. My HR22 box is set to 1080i with Native Off. Does that always upconvert 720p channels to 1080i?

From what I see, 1080i looks better when I compared, say, this past seaon's ST games between Fox & CBS. The CBS games looked considerably better to me than the Fox games. When I compared my local Fox/CBS feeds, I got the same results. However, I watch all of my local's via DTV.

Back (long ago :( ) when we had Versus, I remember the NHL games looked considerably better to me on Versus than most of the FSN outlet games. The exception was the MSG HD feeds, which looked great to me.
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#43 OFFLINE   hilmar2k

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 07:37 AM

I'm watching a 50" Panny 1080p Plasma set from about 8.5-9.0 ft away. My HR22 box is set to 1080i with Native Off. Does that always upconvert 720p channels to 1080i?


Yes. So basically you are taking a 720p signal and both scaling it to 1080 and interlacing it. That signal is then sent to the TV where it is then de-interlaced back to 1080p. Seems to me an extra step which can't do anything but slightly degrade the PQ. Sending the signal to the 1080p TV it its native 720p means that only scaling is necessary.

#44 OFFLINE   scoop8

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 08:00 AM

Yes. So basically you are taking a 720p signal and both scaling it to 1080 and interlacing it. That signal is then sent to the TV where it is then de-interlaced back to 1080p. Seems to me an extra step which can't do anything but slightly degrade the PQ. Sending the signal to the 1080p TV it its native 720p means that only scaling is necessary.


I see your point. I decided to go that route with the HR22 setup to avoid the "Native on" delay in channel-changing with the box.

I guess I'm one of those less-than-discrimminating viewers out there :) , since it all looks good to me.

Interesting, that, even with my HR22 converting everything to 1080i out of the box, that the CBS football feeds always looked better than the Fox feeds. Same for the Versus vs FSN NHL feeds and the NBC NHL feeds look great.
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#45 OFFLINE   hilmar2k

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 08:09 AM

Interesting, that, even with my HR22 converting everything to 1080i out of the box, that the CBS football feeds always looked better than the Fox feeds. Same for the Versus vs FSN NHL feeds and the NBC NHL feeds look great.


I am not arguing which looks better to you, but remember, 1080i channels (CBS, for example) are being delivered to your TV in their native formats, while 720p programming is being formatted to 1080i first. Might have a little something to do with a noticable difference in PQ...or not.

#46 OFFLINE   jediphish

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 08:26 AM

720p displays at 60 frames per seconds and 1080i displays at 30 frames per second, shown in alternating fields (which might get de-interlaced inside the set).

The questions I find that never gets answered is: How many individual frames are being "captured" and "transmitted" per second?

If, it turns out that its 30 frames in both cases, then 1080i converted to 1080p inside the set should be superior, right? I assume that the 60 fields would be de-interlaced into 30 proper frames and doubled to be displayed at 60 hz (or possibly quadrupled for 120 hz sets).

On the other hand, if sports programming is being "captured" and "transmitted" at a 60 hz (60 individual frames per sec), then 720p would have the edge, because 720p would be able to display 60 unique frames per second, whereas 1080i converted to 1080p inside the set would only be able to display 30 unique frames per second.

The spoiler is anything that's "captured" using a 1080i camera (where the individual fields are captured separately) and "transmitted" at 1080i. I believe some Discovery programming used to be captured this way. No way a progressive display, whether 720p or 1080p can ever deal with this as the alternating fields aren't supposed to match up. I'm guessing this type of "capture" method is on the decrease.

Edited by jediphish, 13 March 2010 - 08:58 AM.


#47 OFFLINE   hilmar2k

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 08:32 AM

720p displays at 60 frames per seconds and 1080 displays at 30 frames per second, shown in alternating fields.


Both 1080i and 720p are displayed at [at least] 60 fps. With 1080i, each frame is half of the field. Whatever is de-interlacing it, stiches two frames together to make one complete field. Each of the frames is used twice, thereby going from 30 [complete] fps as delivered, to 60 fps as displayed.

#48 OFFLINE   jediphish

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 08:42 AM

Both 1080i and 720p are displayed at [at least] 60 fps. With 1080i, each frame is half of the field. Whatever is de-interlacing it, stiches two frames together to make one complete field. Each of the frames is used twice, thereby going from 30 [complete] fps as delivered, to 60 fps as displayed.


I have three HDTVs, one of which is a Sony CRT-based set. The Sony "displays" in an interlaced format. What you just described is what 720p, 768p, and 1080p flat-panels and rear-projection sets do.

CRT-based sets (a declining segment of the population) display 30 frames per second, in alternating fields.

Edited by jediphish, 13 March 2010 - 08:50 AM.


#49 OFFLINE   hilmar2k

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 08:44 AM

I have three HDTVs, one of which is Sony CRT-based set. The Sony "displays" in an interlaced format. What you just described is what 720p, 768p, and 1080p flat-panels and rear-projection sets do.


Sorry, I should have inlcuded a legacy description for pre-2000 HDTV's. :lol:

#50 OFFLINE   jediphish

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 08:49 AM

Sorry, I should have inlcuded a legacy description for pre-2000 HDTV's. :lol:


I bought the 30" Sony new in the spring of 2005. Even that recently, CRT-based sets were about the only HDTVs that were under $1000. ;)




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