Jump to content

Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

1080p instead of 3D!


  • Please log in to reply
97 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   hilmar2k

hilmar2k

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,251 posts
Joined: Mar 18, 2007

Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:15 PM

curious are you Native on or off? ... I am Native on and on both of my bigger sony's (46 and 50) 1080i is a little better IMHO but 720p isn't blurry crap by any stretch of the imagination


On. A good TV will do a much better job of scaling and de-interlacing than the H®2x will.

#22 OFFLINE   bagreene

bagreene

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 54 posts
Joined: Oct 06, 2008

Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:18 PM

Every now and then I'll click over to see a few seconds of NASCAR on ABC, or a football game on ESPN. All 720p. The backgrounds, the little details are all blurred out. You lose the whole "it's real" factor of HDTV, which to me is what it's all about. It's just watching TV, not HD. Then switch over too say a PGA event on NBC-HD in 1080i: stunning, crystal clarity--all the little details, the blades of grass, the tiny ball, the trees, the crowd--all sharp and approaching reality--like you're watching through a window.


I actually find the opposite to be true. Comparing football to football, I find that Fox and ESPN in 720p are slightly better than CBS and NBC in 1080i. More background artifacts on the 1080i channels, such as the fans looking "blocky" as a player runs down the field. For relatively slow motion stuff, such as between plays, my eyes can't see much of a difference.

#23 OFFLINE   Maruuk

Maruuk

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 1,951 posts
Joined: Dec 04, 2007

Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:21 PM

I don't know, I've read a lot of posts from forum pros here who discuss the de facto resolution limits inherent in the D* implementation of MP4, and they seem to agree on this inherent 1440 or so limit on the horizontal rez. But I'm no expert. I'd like to think they were sending me 1920!

Of course, we're all aware that we're victims of source material as well. Older PBS stuff shot in 16mm, fake HD 16:9 conversions in SD on Masterpiece Theater, Discovery and NG will have the occasional fake HD or just poor camera-quality HD content. Ya just gotta put up with that crap, it's gonna happen. I was just watching a pledge break show on Northern CA on KQED, and they had some AWFUL footage of Muir Woods, it was technically HD but really weak, lo-rez stuff. Probably used a consumer-level cam or something. It happens.

#24 OFFLINE   Maruuk

Maruuk

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 1,951 posts
Joined: Dec 04, 2007

Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:23 PM

Well there's always going to be a lot of variation in the TVs--plasma/LCD/different dithering systems and standards. Maybe there's some really expensive TVs that can do some kind of magic with 720p, mine sure can't!

#25 OFFLINE   Maruuk

Maruuk

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 1,951 posts
Joined: Dec 04, 2007

Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:27 PM

I suspect though that it's more individuals focusing on different aspects of the PQ. To me, I want a window. I want that magic suspension of disbelief that it's REAL. Sharp as my eyesight. Other folks maybe could care less about that, they're looking for something else on that same screen. It's like Rorschach images--we all see something different.

#26 OFFLINE   bagreene

bagreene

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 54 posts
Joined: Oct 06, 2008

Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:28 PM

Well there's always going to be a lot of variation in the TVs--plasma/LCD/different dithering systems and standards. Maybe there's some really expensive TVs that can do some kind of magic with 720p, mine sure can't!


I will agree that there are definitely way too many variables to say for sure if 720p vs. 1080i is what makes the difference in what we end up seeing on our screens. TV type, TV settings, HR settings, LIL quality, bit rates, etc. etc. just to name a few.

#27 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

Hoosier205

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 6,596 posts
Joined: Sep 03, 2007

Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:29 PM

I don't know, I've read a lot of posts from forum pros here who discuss the de facto resolution limits inherent in the D* implementation of MP4, and they seem to agree on this inherent 1440 or so limit on the horizontal rez. But I'm no expert. I'd like to think they were sending me 1920!


No. DirecTV has not used HD-Lite for quite some time now.

DirecTV:

720p = 1280×720

1080i = 1920x1080


Dish Network:

720p = 1280×720

1080i = 1440x1080


Dish Network has not broadcast any content in the full 1080i resolution of 1920X1080 since 2007. On top of that, the amount of compression they employ is much higher as well.
DTV = Digital Television

#28 OFFLINE   mcees4life

mcees4life

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 97 posts
Joined: May 09, 2008

Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:30 PM

In my opinion, 1080i looks better than 720p when watching sports. I have D* as well and a 1080p LED tv. Watching a NBA game on TNT absolutely craps on a ESPN or ABC game. The picture quality is like night and day. You definately dont get the extra crispness in 720p that you would get in 1080i. I have my resolution set on "native" as well.

#29 OFFLINE   Hutchinshouse

Hutchinshouse

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 4,632 posts
Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:33 PM

Every time I read people say they prefer 1080i over 720p, I try to figure out what they are seeing. Then Sunday comes along and I am stuck watching the Patriots plan on CBS and the PQ is downright terrible. I flip to a Fox game and it is so much better. I cannot fathom how people think 1080i is better.

But hey, that's just me (and ESPN, and Fox ;))


I can tell you I’m using HDMI (HDDVR set to native) with a properly calibrated TV (set to full pixel). AC power filter by my Panamax M5300-PM. I wear glasses just when watching TV because I want the picture as sharp as I can get it. I’m seated 11 feet from a 52” Sony XBR4. I’m very critical when it comes to picture quality, as I trust you are too. If I had to guess, the NY local affiliate feed and the LA local affiliate feed differ. From my chair, CBS is much sharper than FOX and ESPN. Obviously TVs play a huge part too. Some display 1080 better than 720, and vice versa. I can only tell you, here on the left coast, it’s not my imagination. There’s a clear difference. Peace my brother.

#30 OFFLINE   CorpITGuy

CorpITGuy

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 432 posts
Joined: Apr 11, 2007

Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:43 PM

I prefer 1080i. My brother tells me he prefers 720p. Tuh-may-toes/Tuh-mah-toes? Naaa. I just have a more discerning eye. ;)


[[And if you can't tell that I'm joking, go back and look at the post a few days ago where I said something like, "meh, HD Lite looks ok to me.]] :D
Two HR22-100 HD DVRs on HDTVs, both MRV; also running PlayOn, Boxee

#31 OFFLINE   JeffBowser

JeffBowser

    blah blah blah

  • Registered
  • 2,502 posts
Joined: Dec 21, 2006

Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:51 PM

Stuff shot on 16mm and converted to HD looks terrific. 16mm film is beautiful source for high res conversions.

Older PBS stuff shot in 16mm,


------------------------------------------------------------------------
A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions.

#32 OFFLINE   hilmar2k

hilmar2k

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,251 posts
Joined: Mar 18, 2007

Posted 12 March 2010 - 05:44 PM

I think the bottom line is that some people prefer 1080i and some prefer 720p. This is reminiscent of the old Native On/Off debates of a couple of years ago. The only difference is that you don't have a choice in this one.

#33 OFFLINE   Skyboss

Skyboss

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 581 posts
Joined: Jan 22, 2004

Posted 12 March 2010 - 06:19 PM

Actually when it comes to 720p and 1080i. I can tell a huge difference, case in point when i'm watching a basketball or football game on a station that is being broadcasted in 1080i vs 720p I can immediately notice a much more smooth and less choppy picture on 1080i rather than 720p. So to answer your question. Personally Yes I can. I know I compared 1080i to 720p, however same concept really.


I have the reverse problem. When viewing 1080i sports its pixel hell for me on my 1080p set. 720p looks substantially better. I watched a CBS football game where it was snowing this last year and had to shut it off it was so bad.

Ultimately, 1080p on a 1080p set will probably deliver the best picture for fast motion games, the rest will likely look the same. Interestingly enough, the picture quality in my market was going to hell in a handbasket not long ago. Enough people had a fit and bang - better picture. Not sure what they did (equipment reset) or if they were testing adding another channel to the spot beam to see if people noticed and enough of us said "Oh hell no", but during the BCS I was going crazy on DirecTVs local picture quality - "Garbage in = Garbage Out".

Edited by Skyboss, 12 March 2010 - 06:26 PM.


#34 OFFLINE   Avder

Avder

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 1,395 posts
Joined: Feb 06, 2010

Posted 12 March 2010 - 07:50 PM

Personally I prefer 720p...over the air. My local Fox and ABC affiliates PQ smokes my local CBS and NBC affiliates PQ like nobodys business.

On DirecTV the PQ is about the same on both. 720 looks little smoother, but 1080 has a little more detail. For sports I would go with 720 tho, and for actual shows 1080.

#35 OFFLINE   wilbur_the_goose

wilbur_the_goose

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 4,396 posts
Joined: Aug 16, 2006

Posted 12 March 2010 - 09:25 PM

You know what I want - The BluRay audio codecs via HDMI. Now THAT would be beyond cool!

#36 OFFLINE   Jeremy W

Jeremy W

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 13,447 posts
Joined: Jun 18, 2006

Posted 12 March 2010 - 10:28 PM

The reason 3D is the next big broadcast thing instead of true 1080p (1080p60) is because they can fit a 3D channel in the same amount of space a regular HD channel takes up.

#37 OFFLINE   Araxen

Araxen

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 781 posts
Joined: Dec 17, 2005

Posted 12 March 2010 - 10:54 PM

If 1080p is TRULY that important to you than whatever Directv would put on the bird would pale in comparison to a Blu-Ray. The only thing Directv can broadcast in 1080p is movies and if you are a Die-hard PQ freak and you are settling for compressed video that Directv would broadcast in 1080p instead of Blu-Ray you are a hypocrite.
If it ain't in HD, it ain't worth watching!
PSN: Araxen - Xbox: Gamertag: Araxen II - Steam: Araxen - WiiU: Araxen

#38 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

Hoosier205

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 6,596 posts
Joined: Sep 03, 2007

Posted 13 March 2010 - 12:33 AM

Our 2.5 hour nightmare is over! DBS is back! :)
DTV = Digital Television

#39 OFFLINE   jponte55

jponte55

    Cool Member

  • Registered
  • 28 posts
Joined: Apr 21, 2009

Posted 13 March 2010 - 12:57 AM

Hm, good question. I believe I have Native on all the time. It makes channel-changing hideously slow, but relieves me of having to do manual switching. I have a Vizio 42" 1080p set.

Don't get me wrong--a TV show like Ugly Betty in 720p looks fine. Anything that emphasizes characters large in frame: one-shots/two-shots/closeups looks fine in 720p.

But the moment you go to sports where wide shots and tiny background details come to the fore--that's a whole nuther ballgame, as it were. Then you really see the difference bigtime. It's crystal clear...or not.


To take advantage of anything over 720p you'd have to sit 5-6 feet away from your 42 inch set. That is a scientific fact. Now if your TV is doing a terrible job scaling 720p > 1080p then that's a whole other issue. And before anyone jumps in and says, "Its a Vizio, what do you expect!". I have a 37" Vizio in my gym and it does a nice job with both 720p and 1080i content. I actually use it with Sunday Ticket next to a 58" plasma and both 720p and 1080i look scrumptious on both TVs

#40 OFFLINE   Maruuk

Maruuk

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 1,951 posts
Joined: Dec 04, 2007

Posted 13 March 2010 - 03:17 AM

That's your scientific fact. Actually nonsense, no such "fact" exists. Unless you have the eyesight of a mole. My reality, as opposed to made up silliness, makes it abundantly clear that 720 looks significantly blurrier in the background details, or in wide shots, than the much-higher resolution 1080. Gosh, math actually works!

My set works beautifully, and renders resolutions accurately. As opposed to your "data" source.




spam firewall