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Guest Message by DevFuse

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1080p instead of 3D!


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97 replies to this topic

#51 OFFLINE   Mark Walters

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 08:53 AM

Every time I read people say they prefer 1080i over 720p, I try to figure out what they are seeing. Then Sunday comes along and I am stuck watching the Patriots plan on CBS and the PQ is downright terrible. I flip to a Fox game and it is so much better. I cannot fathom how people think 1080i is better. But hey, that's just me (and ESPN, and Fox ;))


Are you watching the Patriots on your local CBS or on the Sunday Ticket? I watch them on Sunday Ticket and the picture is phenomenal. Conversely, when it's shown on my local CBS, I notice a steep decline in picture and audio quality.

Bottom line - Games on Sunday Ticket look much better than on my local stations -- at least in my neck of the woods.

And my vote is simple - NFL on FOX picture quality pales in comparison to NFL on CBS picture quality.

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#52 OFFLINE   N9QZD

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 09:01 AM

Which format looks best depends on the TV's native resolution and how good the processing is, whether that is internal processing, or external processing.
I process everything externally in a DVDO which generally looks noticeably better than what the TV will do with the signal. My TV is a 73" mits 1080p DLP. So everything my TV sees is in 1080p, no matter what it was to start with.
Bitrate (compression) is the main problem.

#53 OFFLINE   hilmar2k

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 09:41 AM

Are you watching the Patriots on your local CBS or on the Sunday Ticket? I watch them on Sunday Ticket and the picture is phenomenal. Conversely, when it's shown on my local CBS, I notice a steep decline in picture and audio quality.

Bottom line - Games on Sunday Ticket look much better than on my local stations -- at least in my neck of the woods.

And my vote is simple - NFL on FOX picture quality pales in comparison to NFL on CBS picture quality.


Since I live in NY, I watch them on NFLST.

#54 OFFLINE   dcowboy7

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 10:19 AM

Since I live in NY, I watch them on NFLST.


But what about when they are playing the J-E-T-S
JETS
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#55 OFFLINE   hilmar2k

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 10:37 AM

But what about when they are playing the J-E-T-S
JETS
JETS
JETS


Then I have to watch them win on CBS 2. :D

#56 ONLINE   harsh

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 10:39 AM

That's funny, I find that sports look better on 720p. There is a reason, after all, that ESPN and Fox Sports chose it as its format.

If you read the polls, CBS Sports usually wins the PQ contests. You can't use arithmetic to forecast how people are going to perceive something like PQ.
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#57 OFFLINE   Paul Secic

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 02:36 PM

Seriously - can you, in a double-blind test, tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p?


No

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#58 OFFLINE   DB Cooper

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 03:10 PM

Yes you can! If you are watching on a front projection system with a 96x54 screen. I see scan lines with 1080i, none with 1080p and 720. It can be very distracting! I will always take 1080p over 1080i! If I did a double blind test you could tell the difference every time on my size screen.

On something this large you need to use progressive every chance you can.

#59 OFFLINE   taz291819

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 08:26 AM

Every time I read people say they prefer 1080i over 720p, I try to figure out what they are seeing. Then Sunday comes along and I am stuck watching the Patriots plan on CBS and the PQ is downright terrible. I flip to a Fox game and it is so much better. I cannot fathom how people think 1080i is better.

But hey, that's just me (and ESPN, and Fox ;))


CBS has always looked the best for me. ESPN and Fox don't look so great.

But as others have said, there isn't any 1080p content, so it's a moot point anyway.

#60 OFFLINE   scoop8

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 09:10 AM

I am not arguing which looks better to you, but remember, 1080i channels (CBS, for example) are being delivered to your TV in their native formats, while 720p programming is being formatted to 1080i first. Might have a little something to do with a noticable difference in PQ...or not.


Good point! Besides, I'd never argue with a Sox fan :lol:
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#61 OFFLINE   Jeremy W

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 05:53 PM

But as others have said, there isn't any 1080p content, so it's a moot point anyway.

There wouldn't be any 3D content today either if there wasn't a huge push from the industry to get it there. Why would anyone do 1080p when there is no method for live delivery?

#62 OFFLINE   CKNAV

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 09:00 AM

I am not arguing which looks better to you, but remember, 1080i channels (CBS, for example) are being delivered to your TV in their native formats, while 720p programming is being formatted to 1080i first. Might have a little something to do with a noticable difference in PQ...or not.


What a heck are you talking about? 720p IS NOT BEING FORMATTED to 1080i first. 720p is delivered in 720p, just like 1080i is.
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#63 OFFLINE   CKNAV

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 09:03 AM

Stuff shot on 16mm and converted to HD looks terrific. 16mm film is beautiful source for high res conversions.


No it is not. 16mm is very grainy and tops out at about 800 lines at best. As a matter of fact very few outlets accept 16mm transfers and networks simply refuse it. All shows are now shot either on 35mm or 1080p/24 HD video.
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#64 OFFLINE   Jeremy W

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 10:34 AM

What a heck are you talking about? 720p IS NOT BEING FORMATTED to 1080i first. 720p is delivered in 720p, just like 1080i is.

He's talking about using Native Off with resolution set to 1080i, not DirecTV's delivery.

#65 OFFLINE   billsharpe

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 10:45 AM

I will agree that there are definitely way too many variables to say for sure if 720p vs. 1080i is what makes the difference in what we end up seeing on our screens. TV type, TV settings, HR settings, LIL quality, bit rates, etc. etc. just to name a few.


Add screen size and how close one sits to the screen to the list.

I find CBS HD coverage of football games to be a bit better than NBC, ABC, or ESPN. Our LA CBS outlet doesn't have any sub-channels, which I suspect helps here.
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#66 OFFLINE   hdthebest

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 12:21 PM

Is it better for pq to leave native on and watch 720p progamming on my 1080pDLP?

#67 OFFLINE   sigma1914

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 12:22 PM

Is it better for pq to leave native on and watch 720p progamming on my 1080pDLP?


It's all about what looks best to you. Native 'On' changes channels slower, though.
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#68 OFFLINE   taz291819

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 12:57 PM

As a matter of fact very few outlets accept 16mm transfers and networks simply refuse it.


Hmm, they must have only recently changed their minds, because all of these shows were shot in S16:

Veronica Mars
Sex in the City
Gilmore Girls
One Tree Hill
Malcolm in the Middle
Tru Calling
The OC
Monk
Dead Zone
Scrubs

Not to mention, some current films are still shot in S16. Rob Zombie's Halloween II and The Hurt Locker are examples.

Edited by taz291819, 15 March 2010 - 01:02 PM.


#69 OFFLINE   JeffBowser

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 01:07 PM

Cite your source about 16mm topping out at 800 lines.

Mine, to the contrary: http://www.cinematec...super_16mm.html

No it is not. 16mm is very grainy and tops out at about 800 lines at best. As a matter of fact very few outlets accept 16mm transfers and networks simply refuse it. All shows are now shot either on 35mm or 1080p/24 HD video.


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#70 OFFLINE   FogCutter

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 01:08 PM

But to me a 1080p channel would probably be worthless unless they upped the bitrate substantially.


SPOT ON!

#71 OFFLINE   djrobx

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 10:42 PM

Yes you can! If you are watching on a front projection system with a 96x54 screen. I see scan lines with 1080i, none with 1080p and 720. It can be very distracting! I will always take 1080p over 1080i! If I did a double blind test you could tell the difference every time on my size screen.

On something this large you need to use progressive every chance you can.

You would definitely see a big difference with live video material.

Film material, you shouldn't see any difference at all. If you do, you should look into improving your system's deinterlacing capability. 1080i film material at 24fps can be perfectly converted back to 1080p. There is no temporal difference between the interlaced frames, so it's simply a matter of putting the fields back together as they were originally. In fact, there's some redundant data that needs to be thrown out. Modern sets worth their salt understand this and do the necessary conversion (the feature is often listed as "3:2 pulldown detection").

Marketing gimmicks: DirecTV and Dish love to advertise "Blu ray quality 1080p" video. The reality is that 1080p/24 requires LESS bandwidth than 1080i/60! It's just a more logical way of transporting film material. There's nothing very revolutionary going on at all.

So why no 1080p channels? Most channels show mixed film and video material. Ofering 1080p/60 for sporting events is an entirely different ballgame that really would require a tremendous amount of bandwidth to do well. Some premium channels might be able to get away with a dedicated 24fps/1080p channel, they'd just have to show film material all the time.

#72 OFFLINE   CKNAV

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 07:41 AM

Hmm, they must have only recently changed their minds, because all of these shows were shot in S16:

Veronica Mars
Sex in the City
Gilmore Girls
One Tree Hill
Malcolm in the Middle
Tru Calling
The OC
Monk
Dead Zone
Scrubs

Not to mention, some current films are still shot in S16. Rob Zombie's Halloween II and The Hurt Locker are examples.


These shows were either SD only , or look like crap. For example Scrubs. S16 is better than 16. This explains why The Hurt Locker is so grainy.
They would use 35mm if they had money.
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#73 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 07:44 AM

These shows were either SD only , or look like crap. For example Scrubs. S16 is better than 16. This explains why The Hurt Locker is so grainy.
They would use 35mm if they had money.


...what are you talking about? The choice of film stock is almost always an artistic choice, not a financial decision.
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#74 OFFLINE   CKNAV

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 07:44 AM

Cite your source about 16mm topping out at 800 lines.

Mine, to the contrary: http://www.cinematec...super_16mm.html


This talks about S16 not 16. Besides film people always overestimate quality and resolution of film. They talk about resolution but always conveniently forget the grain, which is noise.
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#75 OFFLINE   CKNAV

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 07:45 AM

...what are you talking about? The choice of film stock is almost always an artistic choice, not a financial decision.


No it is not. Most of the time it is financial. Why do you think movie standard is 24fps. That is because studios found that motion is just good enough and that would save them money on film stock.
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