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Guest Message by DevFuse

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1080p instead of 3D!


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97 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 06:19 AM

That's your scientific fact. Actually nonsense, no such "fact" exists. Unless you have the eyesight of a mole. My reality, as opposed to made up silliness, makes it abundantly clear that 720 looks significantly blurrier in the background details, or in wide shots, than the much-higher resolution 1080. Gosh, math actually works!

My set works beautifully, and renders resolutions accurately. As opposed to your "data" source.


...actually there is a proper distance at which to sit from your display based on the size and resolution of the display.
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#42 OFFLINE   scoop8

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 07:30 AM

...actually there is a proper distance at which to sit from your display based on the size and resolution of the display.


That's an interesting point (viewing dist). From plugging in my #"s on some 'net "viewing dist formula" sites, I'm not sitting at my optimum distance (I'm too close) (?), but my viewing room dimensions are set up to where I settled for my comfortable distance.

I'm watching a 50" Panny 1080p Plasma set from about 8.5-9.0 ft away. My HR22 box is set to 1080i with Native Off. Does that always upconvert 720p channels to 1080i?

From what I see, 1080i looks better when I compared, say, this past seaon's ST games between Fox & CBS. The CBS games looked considerably better to me than the Fox games. When I compared my local Fox/CBS feeds, I got the same results. However, I watch all of my local's via DTV.

Back (long ago :( ) when we had Versus, I remember the NHL games looked considerably better to me on Versus than most of the FSN outlet games. The exception was the MSG HD feeds, which looked great to me.
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#43 OFFLINE   hilmar2k

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 07:37 AM

I'm watching a 50" Panny 1080p Plasma set from about 8.5-9.0 ft away. My HR22 box is set to 1080i with Native Off. Does that always upconvert 720p channels to 1080i?


Yes. So basically you are taking a 720p signal and both scaling it to 1080 and interlacing it. That signal is then sent to the TV where it is then de-interlaced back to 1080p. Seems to me an extra step which can't do anything but slightly degrade the PQ. Sending the signal to the 1080p TV it its native 720p means that only scaling is necessary.

#44 OFFLINE   scoop8

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 08:00 AM

Yes. So basically you are taking a 720p signal and both scaling it to 1080 and interlacing it. That signal is then sent to the TV where it is then de-interlaced back to 1080p. Seems to me an extra step which can't do anything but slightly degrade the PQ. Sending the signal to the 1080p TV it its native 720p means that only scaling is necessary.


I see your point. I decided to go that route with the HR22 setup to avoid the "Native on" delay in channel-changing with the box.

I guess I'm one of those less-than-discrimminating viewers out there :) , since it all looks good to me.

Interesting, that, even with my HR22 converting everything to 1080i out of the box, that the CBS football feeds always looked better than the Fox feeds. Same for the Versus vs FSN NHL feeds and the NBC NHL feeds look great.
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#45 OFFLINE   hilmar2k

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 08:09 AM

Interesting, that, even with my HR22 converting everything to 1080i out of the box, that the CBS football feeds always looked better than the Fox feeds. Same for the Versus vs FSN NHL feeds and the NBC NHL feeds look great.


I am not arguing which looks better to you, but remember, 1080i channels (CBS, for example) are being delivered to your TV in their native formats, while 720p programming is being formatted to 1080i first. Might have a little something to do with a noticable difference in PQ...or not.

#46 OFFLINE   jediphish

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 08:26 AM

720p displays at 60 frames per seconds and 1080i displays at 30 frames per second, shown in alternating fields (which might get de-interlaced inside the set).

The questions I find that never gets answered is: How many individual frames are being "captured" and "transmitted" per second?

If, it turns out that its 30 frames in both cases, then 1080i converted to 1080p inside the set should be superior, right? I assume that the 60 fields would be de-interlaced into 30 proper frames and doubled to be displayed at 60 hz (or possibly quadrupled for 120 hz sets).

On the other hand, if sports programming is being "captured" and "transmitted" at a 60 hz (60 individual frames per sec), then 720p would have the edge, because 720p would be able to display 60 unique frames per second, whereas 1080i converted to 1080p inside the set would only be able to display 30 unique frames per second.

The spoiler is anything that's "captured" using a 1080i camera (where the individual fields are captured separately) and "transmitted" at 1080i. I believe some Discovery programming used to be captured this way. No way a progressive display, whether 720p or 1080p can ever deal with this as the alternating fields aren't supposed to match up. I'm guessing this type of "capture" method is on the decrease.

Edited by jediphish, 13 March 2010 - 08:58 AM.


#47 OFFLINE   hilmar2k

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 08:32 AM

720p displays at 60 frames per seconds and 1080 displays at 30 frames per second, shown in alternating fields.


Both 1080i and 720p are displayed at [at least] 60 fps. With 1080i, each frame is half of the field. Whatever is de-interlacing it, stiches two frames together to make one complete field. Each of the frames is used twice, thereby going from 30 [complete] fps as delivered, to 60 fps as displayed.

#48 OFFLINE   jediphish

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 08:42 AM

Both 1080i and 720p are displayed at [at least] 60 fps. With 1080i, each frame is half of the field. Whatever is de-interlacing it, stiches two frames together to make one complete field. Each of the frames is used twice, thereby going from 30 [complete] fps as delivered, to 60 fps as displayed.


I have three HDTVs, one of which is a Sony CRT-based set. The Sony "displays" in an interlaced format. What you just described is what 720p, 768p, and 1080p flat-panels and rear-projection sets do.

CRT-based sets (a declining segment of the population) display 30 frames per second, in alternating fields.

Edited by jediphish, 13 March 2010 - 08:50 AM.


#49 OFFLINE   hilmar2k

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 08:44 AM

I have three HDTVs, one of which is Sony CRT-based set. The Sony "displays" in an interlaced format. What you just described is what 720p, 768p, and 1080p flat-panels and rear-projection sets do.


Sorry, I should have inlcuded a legacy description for pre-2000 HDTV's. :lol:

#50 OFFLINE   jediphish

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 08:49 AM

Sorry, I should have inlcuded a legacy description for pre-2000 HDTV's. :lol:


I bought the 30" Sony new in the spring of 2005. Even that recently, CRT-based sets were about the only HDTVs that were under $1000. ;)

#51 OFFLINE   Mark Walters

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 08:53 AM

Every time I read people say they prefer 1080i over 720p, I try to figure out what they are seeing. Then Sunday comes along and I am stuck watching the Patriots plan on CBS and the PQ is downright terrible. I flip to a Fox game and it is so much better. I cannot fathom how people think 1080i is better. But hey, that's just me (and ESPN, and Fox ;))


Are you watching the Patriots on your local CBS or on the Sunday Ticket? I watch them on Sunday Ticket and the picture is phenomenal. Conversely, when it's shown on my local CBS, I notice a steep decline in picture and audio quality.

Bottom line - Games on Sunday Ticket look much better than on my local stations -- at least in my neck of the woods.

And my vote is simple - NFL on FOX picture quality pales in comparison to NFL on CBS picture quality.

#52 OFFLINE   N9QZD

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 09:01 AM

Which format looks best depends on the TV's native resolution and how good the processing is, whether that is internal processing, or external processing.
I process everything externally in a DVDO which generally looks noticeably better than what the TV will do with the signal. My TV is a 73" mits 1080p DLP. So everything my TV sees is in 1080p, no matter what it was to start with.
Bitrate (compression) is the main problem.

#53 OFFLINE   hilmar2k

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 09:41 AM

Are you watching the Patriots on your local CBS or on the Sunday Ticket? I watch them on Sunday Ticket and the picture is phenomenal. Conversely, when it's shown on my local CBS, I notice a steep decline in picture and audio quality.

Bottom line - Games on Sunday Ticket look much better than on my local stations -- at least in my neck of the woods.

And my vote is simple - NFL on FOX picture quality pales in comparison to NFL on CBS picture quality.


Since I live in NY, I watch them on NFLST.

#54 OFFLINE   dcowboy7

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 10:19 AM

Since I live in NY, I watch them on NFLST.


But what about when they are playing the J-E-T-S
JETS
JETS
JETS


#55 OFFLINE   hilmar2k

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 10:37 AM

But what about when they are playing the J-E-T-S
JETS
JETS
JETS


Then I have to watch them win on CBS 2. :D

#56 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 10:39 AM

That's funny, I find that sports look better on 720p. There is a reason, after all, that ESPN and Fox Sports chose it as its format.

If you read the polls, CBS Sports usually wins the PQ contests. You can't use arithmetic to forecast how people are going to perceive something like PQ.

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#57 OFFLINE   Paul Secic

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 02:36 PM

Seriously - can you, in a double-blind test, tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p?


No

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#58 OFFLINE   DB Cooper

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 03:10 PM

Yes you can! If you are watching on a front projection system with a 96x54 screen. I see scan lines with 1080i, none with 1080p and 720. It can be very distracting! I will always take 1080p over 1080i! If I did a double blind test you could tell the difference every time on my size screen.

On something this large you need to use progressive every chance you can.

#59 OFFLINE   taz291819

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 08:26 AM

Every time I read people say they prefer 1080i over 720p, I try to figure out what they are seeing. Then Sunday comes along and I am stuck watching the Patriots plan on CBS and the PQ is downright terrible. I flip to a Fox game and it is so much better. I cannot fathom how people think 1080i is better.

But hey, that's just me (and ESPN, and Fox ;))


CBS has always looked the best for me. ESPN and Fox don't look so great.

But as others have said, there isn't any 1080p content, so it's a moot point anyway.

#60 OFFLINE   scoop8

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 09:10 AM

I am not arguing which looks better to you, but remember, 1080i channels (CBS, for example) are being delivered to your TV in their native formats, while 720p programming is being formatted to 1080i first. Might have a little something to do with a noticable difference in PQ...or not.


Good point! Besides, I'd never argue with a Sox fan :lol:
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Prog Svc: DTV Premier Pkg, NFL ST, MLB EI, CI
Dish: Slimline 5LNB
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Display: PANNY Plasma TH50PZ85U
DVD Player: Std Upconvert Region-Free Pioneer DV-400V




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