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Guest Message by DevFuse

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1080p instead of 3D!


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97 replies to this topic

#61 OFFLINE   Jeremy W

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 05:53 PM

But as others have said, there isn't any 1080p content, so it's a moot point anyway.

There wouldn't be any 3D content today either if there wasn't a huge push from the industry to get it there. Why would anyone do 1080p when there is no method for live delivery?

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#62 OFFLINE   CKNAV

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 09:00 AM

I am not arguing which looks better to you, but remember, 1080i channels (CBS, for example) are being delivered to your TV in their native formats, while 720p programming is being formatted to 1080i first. Might have a little something to do with a noticable difference in PQ...or not.


What a heck are you talking about? 720p IS NOT BEING FORMATTED to 1080i first. 720p is delivered in 720p, just like 1080i is.
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#63 OFFLINE   CKNAV

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 09:03 AM

Stuff shot on 16mm and converted to HD looks terrific. 16mm film is beautiful source for high res conversions.


No it is not. 16mm is very grainy and tops out at about 800 lines at best. As a matter of fact very few outlets accept 16mm transfers and networks simply refuse it. All shows are now shot either on 35mm or 1080p/24 HD video.
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#64 OFFLINE   Jeremy W

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 10:34 AM

What a heck are you talking about? 720p IS NOT BEING FORMATTED to 1080i first. 720p is delivered in 720p, just like 1080i is.

He's talking about using Native Off with resolution set to 1080i, not DirecTV's delivery.

#65 OFFLINE   billsharpe

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 10:45 AM

I will agree that there are definitely way too many variables to say for sure if 720p vs. 1080i is what makes the difference in what we end up seeing on our screens. TV type, TV settings, HR settings, LIL quality, bit rates, etc. etc. just to name a few.


Add screen size and how close one sits to the screen to the list.

I find CBS HD coverage of football games to be a bit better than NBC, ABC, or ESPN. Our LA CBS outlet doesn't have any sub-channels, which I suspect helps here.
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#66 OFFLINE   hdthebest

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 12:21 PM

Is it better for pq to leave native on and watch 720p progamming on my 1080pDLP?

#67 OFFLINE   sigma1914

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 12:22 PM

Is it better for pq to leave native on and watch 720p progamming on my 1080pDLP?


It's all about what looks best to you. Native 'On' changes channels slower, though.
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#68 OFFLINE   taz291819

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 12:57 PM

As a matter of fact very few outlets accept 16mm transfers and networks simply refuse it.


Hmm, they must have only recently changed their minds, because all of these shows were shot in S16:

Veronica Mars
Sex in the City
Gilmore Girls
One Tree Hill
Malcolm in the Middle
Tru Calling
The OC
Monk
Dead Zone
Scrubs

Not to mention, some current films are still shot in S16. Rob Zombie's Halloween II and The Hurt Locker are examples.

Edited by taz291819, 15 March 2010 - 01:02 PM.


#69 OFFLINE   JeffBowser

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 01:07 PM

Cite your source about 16mm topping out at 800 lines.

Mine, to the contrary: http://www.cinematec...super_16mm.html

No it is not. 16mm is very grainy and tops out at about 800 lines at best. As a matter of fact very few outlets accept 16mm transfers and networks simply refuse it. All shows are now shot either on 35mm or 1080p/24 HD video.


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#70 OFFLINE   FogCutter

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 01:08 PM

But to me a 1080p channel would probably be worthless unless they upped the bitrate substantially.


SPOT ON!

#71 OFFLINE   djrobx

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 10:42 PM

Yes you can! If you are watching on a front projection system with a 96x54 screen. I see scan lines with 1080i, none with 1080p and 720. It can be very distracting! I will always take 1080p over 1080i! If I did a double blind test you could tell the difference every time on my size screen.

On something this large you need to use progressive every chance you can.

You would definitely see a big difference with live video material.

Film material, you shouldn't see any difference at all. If you do, you should look into improving your system's deinterlacing capability. 1080i film material at 24fps can be perfectly converted back to 1080p. There is no temporal difference between the interlaced frames, so it's simply a matter of putting the fields back together as they were originally. In fact, there's some redundant data that needs to be thrown out. Modern sets worth their salt understand this and do the necessary conversion (the feature is often listed as "3:2 pulldown detection").

Marketing gimmicks: DirecTV and Dish love to advertise "Blu ray quality 1080p" video. The reality is that 1080p/24 requires LESS bandwidth than 1080i/60! It's just a more logical way of transporting film material. There's nothing very revolutionary going on at all.

So why no 1080p channels? Most channels show mixed film and video material. Ofering 1080p/60 for sporting events is an entirely different ballgame that really would require a tremendous amount of bandwidth to do well. Some premium channels might be able to get away with a dedicated 24fps/1080p channel, they'd just have to show film material all the time.

#72 OFFLINE   CKNAV

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 07:41 AM

Hmm, they must have only recently changed their minds, because all of these shows were shot in S16:

Veronica Mars
Sex in the City
Gilmore Girls
One Tree Hill
Malcolm in the Middle
Tru Calling
The OC
Monk
Dead Zone
Scrubs

Not to mention, some current films are still shot in S16. Rob Zombie's Halloween II and The Hurt Locker are examples.


These shows were either SD only , or look like crap. For example Scrubs. S16 is better than 16. This explains why The Hurt Locker is so grainy.
They would use 35mm if they had money.
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#73 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 07:44 AM

These shows were either SD only , or look like crap. For example Scrubs. S16 is better than 16. This explains why The Hurt Locker is so grainy.
They would use 35mm if they had money.


...what are you talking about? The choice of film stock is almost always an artistic choice, not a financial decision.
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#74 OFFLINE   CKNAV

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 07:44 AM

Cite your source about 16mm topping out at 800 lines.

Mine, to the contrary: http://www.cinematec...super_16mm.html


This talks about S16 not 16. Besides film people always overestimate quality and resolution of film. They talk about resolution but always conveniently forget the grain, which is noise.
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#75 OFFLINE   CKNAV

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 07:45 AM

...what are you talking about? The choice of film stock is almost always an artistic choice, not a financial decision.


No it is not. Most of the time it is financial. Why do you think movie standard is 24fps. That is because studios found that motion is just good enough and that would save them money on film stock.
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#76 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 07:49 AM

No it is not. Most of the time it is financial. Why do you think movie standard is 24fps. That is because studios found that motion is just good enough and that would save them money.


Oh my. Please stay here and do not post at AVSforum....you'll start a riot as they prove you wrong. BTW - grain is good.
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#77 OFFLINE   Hutchinshouse

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 07:55 AM

Comcast will beat DirecTV to the punch by broadcasting the Masters Tournament in 3D April 7-11

http://www.engadget....-3d-april-7-11/

#78 OFFLINE   CKNAV

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 08:00 AM

Oh my. Please stay here and do not post at AVSforum....you'll start a riot as they prove you wrong. BTW - grain is good.


I've been on AVSforum for many years. I know how close minded they are over there. I actually tried to have this conversation over there a while ago, but not only did they tried to prove me wrong, some members got nasty and even personal. I disagree that grain is good, but that is my opinion.
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#79 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 08:15 AM

I've been on AVSforum for many years. I know how close minded they are over there. I actually tried to have this conversation over there a while ago, but not only did they tried to prove me wrong, some members got nasty and even personal. I disagree that grain is good, but that is my opinion.


Grain is not subject to opinion. Grain is a part of film. It belongs there. It is supposed to be there. It is not noise. When you remove grain, you remove detail. That is not opinion. That is a fact.
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#80 OFFLINE   CKNAV

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 08:22 AM

Grain is not subject to opinion. Grain is a part of film. It belongs there. It is supposed to be there. It is not noise. When you remove grain, you remove detail. That is not opinion. That is a fact.


That is correct about film and grain, but it is noise in digital terms. Yes film makers use it for artisitic purposes, but it is still noise. It is impossible to make any film stock without grain.
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