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Coming Out of Commercial Jumps During Playback


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38 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Blowgun

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 04:31 AM

Hi,

For the past several weeks while watching a recorded event, the commercial break ends, the screen fades to black, and then the 508 jumps several seconds into the next segment instead of what should have been a graceful fade-in.

While it is difficult to see exactly where the issue occurs, due to the sloppy controls DISH has now provided us over playback, it's possible to rewind back at 4x and see that there is content being jumped. Using pause and frame advancing also jumps in the same place.

This seems to happen mainly on CBS. Shows like Survivor and The Amazing Race have this problem returning back to programming at every commercial break throughout the entire show. And, it's only when returning from a commercial break that this happens.

I've unplugged the receiver for over 30 minutes, and the problem still happens. I was thinking that perhaps there is a dirty switcher at the station that causes a stream error between local commercials and returning back to the Network feed. But, I don't know.

Anyone else noticing this same issue? If I write DISH Quality, is there a specific name for this type of issue?

Thanks.

Edited by Blowgun, 16 March 2010 - 04:36 AM.


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#2 OFFLINE   Michael P

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 03:02 PM

Is it possible that that is how it's broadcast by your local station? Local stations are allowed to insert local commercials in the middle of network programming during what are called "avails". If your local station has lousy equipment (or lousy master control employees) it's possible that when the local commercials are over they cut into the return of the program. This happens all the time. It's not the fault of the E* DVR. The DVR does not know the difference between a commercial and a live show. The 30 second skip ahead is not a perfect function, as the DVR cannot control what the channel is putting out at any given moment. The DVR cannot do a "graceful fade-in", it just gives you what was broadcast at that moment. Sometimes the picture will get a little wobbly, that's just the DVR syncing the video back up with the audio.
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#3 OFFLINE   BobaBird

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 04:13 PM

"... it's possible to rewind back at 4x and see that there is content being jumped."

Do you ever get to view the content, or does it keep skipping?

But since it seems to happen with some consistency on one channel, it could be a problem on their end. Then again, it could be a problem introduced by Dish's down-res and re-encoding process, so dishquality would be a good place to start.
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#4 OFFLINE   Blowgun

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 04:59 PM

Is it possible that that is how it's broadcast by your local station?


Nope. The recording has the missing information if you rewind through the jump. I've also paused the playback and very carefully used the frame-back button to return it as close as possible to the beginning of the next segment of the show and when I hit play, it plays the jumped area normally.

#5 OFFLINE   Blowgun

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 05:18 PM

"... it's possible to rewind back at 4x and see that there is content being jumped."

Do you ever get to view the content, or does it keep skipping?


If I use the skip back button to return to the end of the last commercial, the jump always occurs and in the same exact spot. However, if I pause after the jump and use the frame-back carefully, that is to say get close to the beginning, but not to close, I can get it within one or two seconds of where it jumped. When I press the Play button I can see and hear everything that was jumped.

But since it seems to happen with some consistency on one channel, it could be a problem on their end. Then again, it could be a problem introduced by Dish's down-res and re-encoding process, so dishquality would be a good place to start.


I just finished watching this past Sunday's 60 Minutes and the same thing happened. Between the first and second segment, the last commercial of the break ended, the screen faded to black and displayed the CBS "Eye" logo. I heard one tick of the 60 minute's stopwatch intro and it jumped into the introduction of the segment about 10 seconds.

Like before, I paused it, and was able to frame-back to a point just before the jump and was able to play the jumped area normally.

One difference was at the end, coming back to the Andy Rooney segment, the commercial ended and there was a normal fade-in and no jump.

#6 OFFLINE   Michael P

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 02:23 PM

You may be expecting too much from the skip forward feature. As I said before, the DVR does not know the difference between a commercial and the program. The skip feature is an approximation. I usually have to skip back after I see the continuation of the program. Skip back is a shorter time frame than skip forward. When I skip back I usually see the tail end of the last commercial, and live with it. Whenever I find the exact spot where the return of the program happens without having to skip back, I feel lucky.
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#7 OFFLINE   Blowgun

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 03:02 PM

You may be expecting too much from the skip forward feature. As I said before, the DVR does not know the difference between a commercial and the program. The skip feature is an approximation. I usually have to skip back after I see the continuation of the program. Skip back is a shorter time frame than skip forward. When I skip back I usually see the tail end of the last commercial, and live with it. Whenever I find the exact spot where the return of the program happens without having to skip back, I feel lucky.


Sigh. It has nothing to do with the skip forward or skip back buttons. It has nothing to do with seeing the tail end of the commercial. It has everything to do with seeing the beginning of the returning segment of a program, without the DVR jumping, on it's own, into the program during normal playback.

And, yes, for whatever reason the DVR does seem to know the difference between a commercial and the program. Because something is causing the DVR on it's own to jump nearly every time, and always between the end of the last commercial and the beginning of the program.

#8 OFFLINE   Michael P

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 05:07 PM

And, yes, for whatever reason the DVR does seem to know the difference between a commercial and the program. Because something is causing the DVR on it's own to jump nearly every time, and always between the end of the last commercial and the beginning of the program.

That "jump" you are referring to is the DVR syncing the picture to the sound. I have observed at times that I too get a "jump". The audio is stable but the picture might have a shimmy or wobble. Granted this does not happen every time, but when it does it is necessary. In the recent past there were fewer occurrences of this jump/wobble, but more occurrences of out of sync sound. I'd rather that the DVR correct itself with this jump/wobble rather than lose lip sync.

Please explain how the DVR knows t he difference between a commercial and the desired program. It's all just digits to the DVR. There is no special coding that tells the DVR the commercials are over. If there were than I could see your point. If there were than the advertisers would have a case against all DVR's. But as far as anyone can tell the DVR CAN'T tell!
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#9 OFFLINE   SaltiDawg

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 06:09 PM

That "jump" you are referring to is the DVR syncing the picture to the sound. ...

Please explain how the DVR knows t he difference between a commercial and the desired program. It's all just digits to the DVR. ....

Did you not answer your own question?

The sound likely switched from 2 Ch Audio back to Dolby 5.1 when the show resumed.

I really have no idea if this would explain what the OP is seeing. lol

BTW, "It's all just digits to the DVR." means the difference between you seeing a house or a horse on your screen. :grin:

#10 OFFLINE   bnborg

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 03:34 PM

And don't forget that all these "digits" represent compressed data streams. When the encoding changes, the compression codec changes. This means that the new codec has to be loaded, replacing the old codec. Therefore, there is a small skip while all this happens.
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#11 OFFLINE   Michael P

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 03:51 PM

Did you not answer your own question?

The sound likely switched from 2 Ch Audio back to Dolby 5.1 when the show resumed.

I really have no idea if this would explain what the OP is seeing. lol

BTW, "It's all just digits to the DVR." means the difference between you seeing a house or a horse on your screen. :grin:


I would not know about dd5.1 with my humble set-up. All I know is what I see & hear. The sound is steady while the picture sometimes jumps or wobbles, but in the end is perfectly in sync. In the beginning of digital TV, there were times when annoying lip sync issues were rampant. Those occurrences are few and far between today.

Back to the original poster's problem. It appears he may be experiencing something totally different than what I've been commenting on. After rereading his original post, it appears that he gets an additional skip forward beyond the last one he punches up. If so that is a new one on me, and I've seen many problems over the years since I got my original 921. Maybe it's an issue with his remote control button?
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#12 OFFLINE   SaltiDawg

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 05:05 PM

I would not know about dd5.1 with my humble set-up. ...

Nothing at all to do with it. The 622 must change audio processing to accommodate the DD 5.1 - whether or not you are listening to DD. lol

#13 OFFLINE   Blowgun

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 06:47 PM

It appears he may be experiencing something totally different than what I've been commenting on. After rereading his original post, it appears that he gets an additional skip forward beyond the last one he punches up. If so that is a new one on me, and I've seen many problems over the years since I got my original 921. Maybe it's an issue with his remote control button?


I can play the end of the previous program segment right through the commercials and as soon as the next program segment starts, it jumps. No remote involved, it's recorded that way.

I have AEP and have not seen the jump occur any other place but during CBS network programming. Nor do I see the jump while watching the news on our local CBS affiliate.

#14 OFFLINE   DustoMan

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 07:50 AM

And, yes, for whatever reason the DVR does seem to know the difference between a commercial and the program. Because something is causing the DVR on it's own to jump nearly every time, and always between the end of the last commercial and the beginning of the program.


No, your DVR doesn't. Indexing of a video looking for commercial segments is in violation of Tivo's patient. DISH had to program around it once they were sued by Tivo. The way skip works now is that it jumps ahead or back a certain number of frames or seconds. To the DVR, a frame of video is a frame of video and it just outputs whatever audio format it receives. It can't tell the difference between programming or commercials.

I have a 722 and I've NEVER had my DVR "jump on it's own". I've always had to initiate the 30 sec skip forward or 7 sec skip back with my remote myself. If there is a signal loss because of weather or OTA signal hiccup, then the DVR will just pickup when it receives a signal again, but that looks nothing like you're describing.

Are there any other channels that exhibit this behavior besides CBS? If not, then it's the station messing up. Your DVR doesn't have the ability to "fade" in or out video.

Edited by DustoMan, 19 March 2010 - 01:42 PM.

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#15 OFFLINE   SaltiDawg

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 08:24 AM

No, your DVR doesn't. ... (The difference between the commercial and the video).

If you read some of the posts above there are factors that may in fact distinguish between the commercial and the video. The sound may well go from 2 Ch stereo to DD 5.1. The sound level may change. Certainly the receiver doesn't know if the on-screen blond is selling toilet cleaner or saving a victim, but to suggest that there may not be changes from commercial break to main video would simply be wrong.

That said, I'll say again, I have no idea whether these differences have anything to do with what the OP is seeing.

#16 OFFLINE   DustoMan

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 01:40 PM

If you read some of the posts above there are factors that may in fact distinguish between the commercial and the video. The sound may well go from 2 Ch stereo to DD 5.1. The sound level may change. Certainly the receiver doesn't know if the on-screen blond is selling toilet cleaner or saving a victim, but to suggest that there may not be changes from commercial break to main video would simply be wrong.

That said, I'll say again, I have no idea whether these differences have anything to do with what the OP is seeing.


And if the receiver cared at all about any of that then you might have something there. But it doesn't matter what changes there are to the video or audio between commercial and main program if the receiver doesn't index any of it. Which in turn would not cause any of the behavior the OP is thinking they are seeing. You and I are talking about two different things. It is impossible for the receiver to initiate a 30 second skip on it's own. I have seen my receiver go back farther then 7 seconds occasionally, but it is after I press a button on my remote.
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#17 OFFLINE   SaltiDawg

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 01:56 PM

It is impossible for the receiver to initiate a 30 second skip on it's own. I have seen my receiver go back farther then 7 seconds occasionally, but it is after I press a button on my remote.

Second of all, the Skip Back nominal time is not 7 seconds, it is 10 seconds. lol

First of all, you're making stuff up. It seems that you have not read the entire thread. You're saying things can't happen that no one said did happen.
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#18 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 02:23 PM

I wonder if something in the encoding is corrupting the frames? Tracing this down won't be easy ...
First, it is reported on a 508 and local channels. Is it happening on national channels as well? If it is just the locals then it could be just a problem with an encoder in that market. It may be an error that the 508 can't handle but other receivers gloss over.

If it is only on local channels it would help to find someone else in your market to see if they have problems. If they have a 501/508/510 and are not seeing the jumps it makes figuring out the problem more challenging. If it happens on national channels as well then it will be easier to find other 501/508/510 users to try to replicate the problem.

I believe it has been described well ... you just need to narrow it down to details. Exact channel and record times when the recording that jumped was recorded. Getting beyond the "lone voice" is helpful. The more customers this affects the more likely DISH will get a data set big enough to figure it out.

#19 OFFLINE   DustoMan

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 03:04 PM

Second of all, the Skip Back nominal time is not 7 seconds, it is 10 seconds. lol

First of all, you're making stuff up. It seems that you have not read the entire thread. You're saying things can't happen that no one said did happen.
:rolleyes:


:nono: I believe I quoted the portion of the post from the OP I was responding to in my initial reply. They seem to be convinced that their DVR is sentient when the reality is that it's dumb as a rock.

Fourth of all, no one likes a know-it-all. :rolleyes:
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#20 OFFLINE   morrisdl

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 07:21 AM

Blowgun, Sounds just like a problem I recently had with my VIP722:

http://www.dbstalk.c...ad.php?t=172811

It would not smoothly playback buffered or "recording in progress" shows. It would randomly jump to "live". I was actually impressed with my chat tech support experiences. They walked though some logical problems like remote interference, corrupt recordings, bad hard drive before determining it was bad DVR software. We narrowed it down to only the OTA recordings, which I believe are still stored in the older MPEG2 format. My case was referred to software engineering, but I luckily got a new 722K DVR the next day from a tech that was dispatched to repoint my dish.

Good luck.




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