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Upgrading the internal hard drive on an HR24


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#151 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 12:34 PM

No problem Rich. No offense taken. :)

As a matter of fact, I work in such an industry right now. Most of what we design and implement are based on using specific components and meeting certain performance criteria (in my case fluid mechanical systems). As to the physical layout of those components, that we determine to meet the criteria specified by the customer. In certain cases from one ship to another (we build ships for the Navy) components unrelated to my piping system require changing the geometry of my system while maintaining the specified criteria.

IOW, we use the components specified, using the materials specified, and meet the performance criteria specified and still have a different physical arrangement from ship to ship. This same premise applies at scale ranging from large piping systems to electronic components. Using the requested parts and meeting the specified performance in different configurations. It's done all the time in engineering design. ;)


Ships I can understand. There's no way every ship in the fleet is gonna be the same. Or even every destroyer within a class. And piping runs can vary just as conduit runs can vary. What I'm talking about are "Identical Specifications". That only means one thing to me.

In the case of a Bud bottle, a deviation from specs is a deviation from brand recognition.


Not quite what I was talking about. The molds for the bottles are hand made (or were, way back when) and if one mold happened to have an extra or a missing eagle, Bud would consider letting that out on the market unacceptable and would take steps that would terrify a bottle supplier financially. They want each bottle to match the specs they send the glass house, they want identical bottles.

I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve gotten a replacement part that the dealer such as Chevy and from a store such as NAPA and in each case the part was different from the original, but was considered equivalent to OEM...I’m just sayin’ :grin:


Yeah, I've gone thru that too, but the screw holes were always where they were supposed to be and the parts fit. You can't say that about a 24-500 and a 24-200. I have been told that the specs were "identical". That would mean to me that I can take my owned 24-200 and put any part from the 24-500 in it and it will work. I don't think that's true.

Rich

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#152 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 02:05 PM

Ships I can understand. There's no way every ship in the fleet is gonna be the same. Or even every destroyer within a class. And piping runs can vary just as conduit runs can vary. What I'm talking about are "Identical Specifications". That only means one thing to me.



Not quite what I was talking about. The molds for the bottles are hand made (or were, way back when) and if one mold happened to have an extra or a missing eagle, Bud would consider letting that out on the market unacceptable and would take steps that would terrify a bottle supplier financially. They want each bottle to match the specs they send the glass house, they want identical bottles.



Yeah, I've gone thru that too, but the screw holes were always where they were supposed to be and the parts fit. You can't say that about a 24-500 and a 24-200. I have been told that the specs were "identical". That would mean to me that I can take my owned 24-200 and put any part from the 24-500 in it and it will work. I don't think that's true.

Rich

You were told that specs included the construction diagrams down to component locations, mounts, brackets....down to the very last screw? I find that very hard to believe, especially considering that every manufacturer of every HR has been different inside. That would tell me that there aren’t any construction/assembly diagrams with tolerances and measurements...just the required components and system performance.

Where did you hear the construction, assembly, and mesurement specs were identical?

I have never seen every piece of electronic hardware that was identical. In my usta-be-in-IT days, we ordered 500 Compaq ProLinea desktops. We got them in over a six month period. I can tell you for a fact that, even though they were all the exact same model PCs, the were many differences between them; usually based on where they were made.

It has been my experience that my ship analogy extends to most things big and small.

Mike

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Since it costs 1.66¢ to produce a penny, my 2¢ worth is really 3.32¢ worth.  That 3.32¢ is my own and not the 3.32¢ of DIRECTV, Dish, or anyone else for that matter.


#153 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 06:47 AM

You were told that specs included the construction diagrams down to component locations, mounts, brackets....down to the very last screw? I find that very hard to believe, especially considering that every manufacturer of every HR has been different inside. That would tell me that there aren’t any construction/assembly diagrams with tolerances and measurements...just the required components and system performance.

Where did you hear the construction, assembly, and mesurement specs were identical?

I have never seen every piece of electronic hardware that was identical. In my usta-be-in-IT days, we ordered 500 Compaq ProLinea desktops. We got them in over a six month period. I can tell you for a fact that, even though they were all the exact same model PCs, the were many differences between them; usually based on where they were made.

It has been my experience that my ship analogy extends to most things big and small.

Mike


OK.

Rich

#154 OFFLINE   CTskydiver

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 11:38 AM

Particularly interesting since I've been told by several people that the specs sent to each manufacturer were identical. Send the identical specs to several manufacturers and you should get identical devices. At least in my world.

Rich


More than one way to skin a cat. All Formula 1 cars are built to identical FIA specs; but yet they all look a bit different inside and out, because the specs can't specify EVERYTHING. As long as the DVR's look the same on the outside, and work the same on the inside, DirecTV probably leaves it up to the manufacturers to build them as they see fit.

Oh, or what he said^.

#155 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 11:43 AM

More than one way to skin a cat. All Formula 1 cars are built to identical FIA specs; but yet they all look a bit different inside and out, because the specs can't specify EVERYTHING. As long as the DVR's look the same on the outside, and work the same on the inside, DirecTV probably leaves it up to the manufacturers to build them as they see fit.

Oh, or what he said^.


I really doubt that, but arguing seems futile.

Rich

#156 OFFLINE   bobcamp1

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 09:59 AM

Tivo DOES lock out all other models of external eSATA hard drives except for the official DVR Expander (which sucks, because they are unreliable). If you plug other models in, they don't work. So it isn't hard for D* to do something like that. But that would create logistical nightmares, so they don't do it for the internal drives.

As far as upgrading internal drives, Tivo can definitely tell. Their rules are: it violates the 90 warranty if it already hasn't expired, and you cannot participate in beta/cutting edge programs. Otherwise, they don't care. In fact, they have allowed two companies to redistribute the software so that it is done correctly.

If the units are leased, that violates the lease and D* can charge you full price (i.e. force you to buy it). Just keep the original hard drive and put it back in before you ship the DVR back. They'll never know.

As far as practical advice, make sure the new hard drive doesn't consume more power than the old drive. You don't want to burn out the DVR's internal power supply. A lot of times they are designed with very little margin.

#157 OFFLINE   CBMC

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 09:39 PM

I know that alot discourage people from opening these. And I am not one of those people, but, I will repeat that the HR24-200 will not allow a "normal sized" hard drive without modifying the hard drive cage. If you are willing to modify the cage and take that risk, then by all means go ahead (I was,and so far, so good), but if you aren't willing to do it then don't bother opening a HR24-200. I know Rick and I both posted this awhile back, but wanted to repost since everyone doesn't have the time to read through every post.

#158 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 09:22 AM

I know that alot discourage people from opening these. And I am not one of those people, but, I will repeat that the HR24-200 will not allow a "normal sized" hard drive without modifying the hard drive cage. If you are willing to modify the cage and take that risk, then by all means go ahead (I was,and so far, so good), but if you aren't willing to do it then don't bother opening a HR24-200. I know Rick and I both posted this awhile back, but wanted to repost since everyone doesn't have the time to read through every post.


Keep in mind that Seagate does sell a Pipeline 1TB HDD that will, I think, fit the sled on the 200. Hopefully, they will produce a 2TB or a 1.5TB (a size that is really all you need with multiple HRs) HDD soon.

Rich

#159 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 09:31 AM

I really doubt that, but arguing seems futile.

Rich

It is an absolute fact. Especially since every single manufacturers version of a given HR model is different on the inside, and has been since day one. This is rock solid absolute indisputable proof that the internal construction is not specified by DirecTV. This explains why drives fit differently and the connectors have different locations depending on who manufacturers a given HR model.

Unless you're somehow suggesting that DirecTV is unaware that they differ internally in which case I’m wrong about indisputable. :shrug:

Mike

Edited by Mike Bertelson, 15 October 2010 - 07:47 AM.
clarificology

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Since it costs 1.66¢ to produce a penny, my 2¢ worth is really 3.32¢ worth.  That 3.32¢ is my own and not the 3.32¢ of DIRECTV, Dish, or anyone else for that matter.


#160 OFFLINE   bigjosh

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 11:40 AM

My Weeknees-upgraded HR24 died shortly after recieving it. It would take hours to get past the "Check sat settings" screen, and once booted would quickly crash. Unfortunaly I assumed this was a problem with my connections and so took several months (at 20-30 hours per reboot cycle time goes fast) to finally contact Weekness and missed the 90 day cut-off for repairs.

They suggested trying an external drive and doing a disk scan. Interestingly, the external drive did not solve the problem, which suggests that the HR24 still uses the internal drive for something even if an external drive is connected. This goes against much of what I've read that the external drive will completely cover the internal drive if connected.

So, stuck with an owned useless $400 box that already had the warantee seals busted thanks to Weekness, I had nothing to loose by trying to open it.

Opening it was not hard and the drive was easy to access with just a few creditcards (for the plastic latches) and a torx screwdriver.

You can find some photos of the internals by going to Flickr and searching on "hr24 internals".

Weekness used a WD10EVVS drive. This is one of those "green" drives that use less power and run cooler than normal drives- so it seems like a good choice if it weren't for the failure. I wonder if I was just unluckly or if these drives are less reliable.

Anyway, replaced it with a WD1500 that I happened to have laying around. It fit perfectly with no hassles. When I turned the unit on I saw a quick "Preparing hard drive" message and then it booted normally! A very happy ending to a very long story.

Now that it is working, I love the HR24. Much faster than the HR23.

Just wanted to post here becuase (1) thought some people would like to see the insides of the HR24 just for curiosity, and (2) thought someone might have simlar problems with a very long boots and crashes and not realize it could be easily fixed with an internal drive swap.

-josh

#161 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 11:57 AM

You forgot to inform us what exactly model of HR24 you have. -200 or -500 ? Or ?

{josh, what is that crazy things pictured on Flikr ? SF6 ? where you you bought that torx 5-star set ? }

Edited by P Smith, 02 December 2010 - 12:09 PM.


#162 OFFLINE   bigjosh

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 01:10 PM

You forgot to inform us what exactly model of HR24 you have. -200 or -500 ? Or ?


{It was a 1TB from Weeknees, but it started off life as an HR24-500 when they got it. }


{josh, what is that crazy things pictured on Flikr ? SF6 ?


{SF6 is Sulfur Hexafloride, a *very* heavy gas.}


where you you bought that torx 5-star set ? }


{I got the torx 5-star set on Amazon.}

#163 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 01:21 PM

Thanks for Amazon hint; I know SF6 is a gas, but don't know how you'll use it ?

[Your pictures show very wide angle of interests - networks, wireless cameras hacking, the gas, torx, .... Man ! You're touching so many sides ! Like Mr. Q :) ]

#164 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 01:50 PM

My Weeknees-upgraded HR24 died shortly after recieving it. It would take hours to get past the "Check sat settings" screen, and once booted would quickly crash. Unfortunaly I assumed this was a problem with my connections and so took several months (at 20-30 hours per reboot cycle time goes fast) to finally contact Weekness and missed the 90 day cut-off for repairs.


That's one thing I never liked about Weaknees. That too short warranty. I went thru that a lot with TiVo HDDs. Spent a lot of money on HDDs that lasted six months.

They suggested trying an external drive and doing a disk scan. Interestingly, the external drive did not solve the problem, which suggests that the HR24 still uses the internal drive for something even if an external drive is connected. This goes against much of what I've read that the external drive will completely cover the internal drive if connected.


We had a discussion about the "held back" portion a short time ago. I came away from that discussion with the thought that the original purpose of that held back portion of every HDD had changed from content to actually doing something in conjunction with the OS on the flash drive. I remember Steve being very persuasive in that discussion.

I think your post is one of the first to confirm that opinion. It would seem logical that the internal HDD was damaged and was causing the problem with your 24-500. I don't see any other conclusion.

Rich

#165 OFFLINE   olident

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 02:31 PM

I've had problems with external eSATA enclosures not being recognized after a power outage (DVR comes up faster than external drives, so the DVR defaults to its internal drive). To avoid this, I put the drive on the inside.

Standard disclaimer: Only do this on an owned box or you void your lease terms.

I have added a 2TB internal drive to my HR24-500. After reading this forum, I thought I'd expand a little on the process, and in particular describe in more detail how the clasps holding the external cover work.

As has been noted in this thread elsewhere there are 6 latching points, two on each side, and two up front. You have to release the side latches before proceeding to the front latches. All are accessed from the bottom of the HR24.

With the HR24 turned upside down (case bottom facing up) and looking down at the outside cover edge at a spot where one of the side locking clasps is, there are two small slots with an ~ 1/4" blocked off space between them. In ASCII it looks something like this with the #1 and #3 at the open slots and the '=' being the bottom edge of the plastic case (treat all the '*' as empty space - they are just to keep ASCII spacing correct):

======*1*===*3*======

Looking at the same spot, but from the side of the case, (bottom of HR24 still to the top and using x-ray glasses) you'd see something like:

======***===***=== (HR 24 external cover bottom edge)
*********_2_****** (locking tab #2 in HR24 case, engaging plastic cover)
******_1_***_3_**** (unlocking tabs, #1, #3 in HR24 case)

It is the center tab on the clasp (#2, closest to case bottom) that does the locking by protruding from the HR24 case and engaging the external plastic cover - basically sticking straight into a slot on the external cover. This tab is about 1/8" wide. On each side of this tab, beneath the 'open' slots on the bottom edge of the plastic case and a bit further down (towards the top of the HR24) are two "unlock" tabs (#1, #3) which are about 3/16" wide. The central tab is separated from each side tab in the horizontal direction by a distance of about 1/8".

If there is a 'tool' designed to open these, its business end is basically two flat prongs which insert between the case and the cover through the open slots above the #1 and #3 tabs at each of the 4 side latch sites. The tool depresses the #1 and #3 tabs back into the case at each site causing the #2 tab at each site to retract into the case, thus releasing the cover at these points. I didn't realize this until after the case was removed and I could see how the mechanisms worked, i.e., I brute forced the cover, one site at a time, away from the #2 tab and then inserted the door shims. CAUTION: you have to pull pretty hard on the case to get the #2 tab to disengage by itself (that is, without pressing the #1 or #3 tab). This is where there is a risk of breaking the case if you are not careful. You'll be better off trying to use something to press in one (or both) of the unlocking tabs (#1, #3) and then slipping in something to prevent the #2 tab from re-engaging the case. Pressing either #1 or #3 coaxes #2 to disengage slightly, reducing the distance you have to pull the outside cover away from the case to disengage the #2 tab, but pressing both to completely disengage the #2 tab is better than pressing just one.

Once all 4 side tabs are disengaged (and something is in place on each to keep them from re-engaging, like 4 door shims or 4 credit cards) you can begin to separate the cover from the case at the rear of the HR24.

At this point the two front latches simply need to be pushed towards the rear of the box to disengage them (lift up a bit so they fall through the slot they're coming up through and they'll stay disengaged).

Then the cover comes off.

On to the hard drive.

Once inside, the replacement was straightforward, but definitely not as simple as replacing a PC hard drive. Components are very close together and delicate. You need to exercise care and proceed slowly. Steps I followed were basically:

1) slide wires routed through external tabs in the hard drive enclosure out of the way so they aren't encumbering it.

2) the fan is integral to the hard drive enclosure and its electrical connection needs to be disconnected at the motherboard in order to flip the drive enclosure over and access the hard drive. To do this unclip the fan's wire harness from the motherboard (4 thin wires towards front of HR24; press the clip gently and pull up to remove). Remember the orientation of the clip for when you need to replace this.

3) remove 4 torx screws holding down the drive enclosure (carefully, some of this work is near internal capacitors). A magnetic or some form of capture torx to grab the hard to get to screws once they are free is advised.

4) gently lift the drive assembly up and disconnect the SATA and power cables (you have to press on release clips to remove these two connections).

5) remove the metal grounding tab from the bottom (circuit board side) of the hard drive by removing the 2 screws holding it (note orientation on drive relative to SATA/power connectors).

6) remove 4 retaining screws holding the drive to the enclosure and remove the drive.

7) put in your new drive and reverse steps. Note, the 2TB drive was thicker than the 500MB drive, so I had to remove the piece of foam that was sandwiched between the 500MB drive and the drive enclosure.

When the unit is powered up, the drive is initialized and you're on your way.

#166 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 02:43 PM

Would you make a few pictures instead of the long boring description ?

#167 OFFLINE   matt

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 02:45 PM

I am surprised no snoopers of some of my self hosted pics have figured out I have pics of how to do it in my photobucket. Please substitute a cut up credit card for the razor blades... the blades were a first attempt and I showed someone the process and they used a card.
Slimline 5 with SWM-16
Wireless DECA
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R22-200 Leased
Owned H25-700 and H24-700 off and packed for the move.

DIRECTV subscriber since Nov. 2009

#168 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 03:01 PM

Care to post URL ?

#169 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 04:47 PM

Would you make a few pictures instead of the long boring description ?


It's easy. You can figure it out.

Rich

#170 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 05:27 PM

Sure, just don't my own to practice ;) - after seen pictures it should be easy, thanks to Matt.
Now I'm looking around to build professional opener.:D

#171 OFFLINE   matt

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 05:29 PM

Now I'm looking around to build professional opener.:D


Then you could get a club membership and sell them in the buy/sell/trade section! :lol:
Slimline 5 with SWM-16
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Owned H25-700 and H24-700 off and packed for the move.

DIRECTV subscriber since Nov. 2009

#172 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 05:43 PM

I'm afraid it will be new ban, but for life ... :(

#173 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 08:21 AM

Sure, just don't my own to practice ;) - after seen pictures it should be easy, thanks to Matt.
Now I'm looking around to build professional opener.:D


All you need is an old credit card or an old access card. Just enough to hold the clips back. They work well on 20-700s for the clips too.

Rich

#174 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 12:12 PM

I did serve some RMA/manufacturing issues and always itched when saw small but an inventions what ppl creating for mass production or RMA centers. Perhaps I'm educated as EE ?

#175 OFFLINE   davel

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 02:26 AM

I have been meaning to post my pictures for a while. Thanks to those that helped me accomplish it (anleva). These are of an HR-24-100.

1. In picture #1 unscrew the two screws in 0 that hold the drive down (don't worry there are two more inside, these are a standard t-10), then release tabs 1,2,3 and gently lift up on the coax terminal (this was the easiest way I found). Place a screwdriver underneath the top like in picture #2. The tabs_closeup picture shows the outside case where you need to insert the flat blade and circled in blue the tab that you need to push in to release the top of the case.

2. Release tabs 4,5,6 in picture #1. Elevate the second side by using a flat screwdriver like in picture #3

3. The top is now clear like in #4 and will slide straight off revealing picture #5

4. Place new drive on top of old drive like in picture #6 and boot up and format like all the other drive upgrade threads. Note step 4 is not needed if you are just replacing the old drive and do not care about the current recordings.

5. Remove the two drive screws in picture #7 with the t-10 screwdriver. The old drive should now come out.

6. Replace with new drive, attach drive screws, plug in cords, place top back on and slide until it clicks and you are done!

Overall, once you figure out the tabs (and it is really easy) this DVR is a ton easier than the hr-20,23

Don't forget to turn off "power up in standby mode" on the old drive so you can use it in a regular pc by following the instructions Here

Attached Thumbnails

  • 1_tab_placements.JPG
  • 2_elevate_one_side.JPG
  • 3_elevate_second_side.JPG
  • 4_cover_free.JPG
  • 5_Original_drive.JPG
  • 6_new_drive_on_top.JPG
  • 7_drivescrews.JPG
  • Tabs_closeup.JPG

Edited by davel, 20 December 2010 - 03:22 PM.
clarification





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