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Yamaha A/V Reciever Question


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21 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Polardog

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 06:19 AM

I just purchased a Yamaha RX-V665 A/V reciever.
While looking over the the details of the unit I see there is a feature I'm not familiar with. It is the "presence" option which calls for extra front L & R speakers. Instructions claim that this feature incorporates extra ambient effects produced by the sound field programs especially for the Cinema DSP.
My question is, has anyone used this feature and is it worth investing the cash for 2 more speakers ?

One more question.
While the unit is turned off I know this unit passes through HDMI video signal. Does it also pass through HDMI audio signal ? Some of the time I spend watching TV I do not turn on my A/V reciever but instead listen to news, weather,etc through the TV's speakers. Can I hook up my HDMI cables to this unit and watch TV sound and all without turning on the Yamaha ? Or, do I need to run audio cables seperately to the TV ?

Thank You ..

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#2 OFFLINE   Carl Spock

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 06:42 AM

I don't know about your second question - you'll have to try it to see - but I can answer your first.

Yamaha did a lot of original research on ambient sound thirty years ago through their pro division. If you are in a recording studio, the idea of mixing the vocalist into a re-creation of the acoustics of Carnegie Hall is very appealing. They measured the acoustics of many halls and clubs and found that the primary contributor to a room's acoustical signature are reflections off the front walls, ceiling and stage. Rear reflections contributed significantly less.

When this research made it over into the home audio side of the company, front ambient presence speakers became the best way to reproduce these reflections. You can mix this front presence sound into the mains but it doesn't sound as good.

My experience has been that the front presence speakers don't need to be much. They should match the sound of your mains - maybe they should be from the same manufacturer - but can be the least expensive speakers the company makes.

Should you do it? It depends if you want to use the DSP effects of your receiver. I don't. They leave me cold. I use a Yamaha receiver in my home theater and in general, I run it clean and straight, although I do like the Roxy Club and Village Gate options, and yes, you are recreating the measured acoustics of these two clubs. Other people disagree with me. Maybe you can borrow a pair of speakers from a store or even another room of your house to try out the DSP effects for a day or two. Put the front presence speakers up high, outside and maybe even behind the main speakers if you can.

It's a toy, Polardog, for you to play with. :D

One other consideration might come into play for you, Polardog. If you use presence speakers, you will lose the ability to power speakers in another room. The amp inside your receiver can be assigned to one or the other but not both. You could still run speakers in another room but you'd need a power amp to do it.

Edited by Carl Spock, 28 April 2010 - 07:00 AM.

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#3 OFFLINE   Polardog

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 06:55 AM

I don't know about your second question - you'll have to try it to see - but I can answer your first.

Yamaha did a lot of original research on ambient sound thirty years ago through their pro division. If you are in a recording studio, the idea of mixing the vocalist into a recreation of the acoustics of Carnegie Hall is very appealing. They measured the acoustics of many halls and clubs and found that the primary contributor to a room's acoustical signature are reflections off the front walls, ceiling and stage. Rear reflections contributed significantly less.

When this research made it over into the home audio side of the company, front ambient presence speakers became the best way to reproduce these reflections. You can mix this front presence sound into the mains but it doesn't sound as good.

My experience has been that the front presence speakers don't need to be much. They should match the sound of your mains - maybe they should be from the same manufacturer - but can be the least expensive speakers the company makes.

Should you do it? It depends if you want to use the DSP effects of your receiver. I don't. They leave me cold. I use a Yamaha receiver in my home theater and in general, I run it clean and straight, although I do like the Roxy Club and Village Gate options, and yes, you are recreating the measured acoustics of these two clubs. Other people disagree with me. Maybe you can borrow a pair of speakers from a store or even another room of your house to try out the DSP effects for a day or two. Put the front presence speakers up high, outside and maybe even behind the main speakers if you can.

It's a toy, Polardog, for you to play with. :D


Thank you Carl.
I will play with my new toy. I use my A/V reciever mostly for movies so 5.1 or 7.1 surround is what I'm interested in (I have a 7.1 set up). But I do listen to music occasionally so I have a few cheap speakers I can use to experiment with using presence.
Ed.

#4 OFFLINE   Carl Spock

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 07:46 AM

You're welcome.

The DSP effects also are used with movies, Polardog. You'll find various DSP surrround modes under the Movie surround button like Adventure, Spectacular and Sci-Fi. In these, Yamaha tries to take you out of the acoustics of your home theater and put you in a movie palace. In your case, the basic Dolby Digital 7.1 sound is enhanced by adding ambience effects. They aren't re-creations of real rooms like the audio DSP modes are, but they certainly do expand the sound of the room. You might like those.

One thing that I implied but didn't say explicitly above is if you don't have front presence speakers, you can still get the use of these DSP effects, both on audio and video. They are just mixed into the mains. This is what I do at home. My entertainment center is free standing and really is a room divider. I have no option for presence speakers. If I call up the Roxy Theater in Los Angeles or Hall in Vienna, I hear the front ambient effects through my mains.

Other companies also use DSP enhancement of their surround modes. The difference is Yamaha did it first and I don't know of anybody else that did the original research, measuring the acoustics of rooms around the world. As I said above, I'm not real wild about these effects in general but, at least to my ear, Yamaha has done them the best.

Edited by Carl Spock, 28 April 2010 - 07:53 AM.

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#5 OFFLINE   CCarncross

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 09:23 AM

I used the front surround speakers alot when I had my Yamaha AV receiver many moons ago...get in your way back machine, it was an RX-V2090 unit, flagship model from about 15 or more years ago...yes Yamaha was doing it right way back then as well. It was a great piece that I just sold in the last few months along with the DDP-2 outboard Dolby Digital processor...

#6 OFFLINE   Carl Spock

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 10:55 AM

We forget how revolutionary the original Yamaha DSP-1 integrated amp was back when (wiki says 1985 - that seems early to me). Yes, it had Dolby Pro Logic, and this was before they applied the DSP section to home theater so that's all it had for movies, but the audio section was absolutely fantastic, years ahead of anybody else. It had at least 15 different rooms in it, including Carnegie Hall although not credited that way because they couldn't get the release, and you could fine tune the the parameters in each surround mode well beyond what you can do today from anybody, including Yamaha.

Dolby Digital made it outdated the moment it was introduced, but the DSP-1 lead directly to your RX-V2090, CCarncross, another outstanding piece I remember well, and as you said, could be updated to Dolby Digital.

There were other companies also on the cutting edge. I used a Fosgate-Audionics 3A at home back then, an all analog piece that sounded a little warmer than the Yamaha. But nobody touched Yamaha for digital signal processing back in those days, and you still see that legacy in their current line.

Edited by Carl Spock, 28 April 2010 - 03:25 PM.

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#7 OFFLINE   scooper

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 11:01 AM

Hey - I'm still using my RXV-2092 - When some resisters / diodes burned, I had it repaired and the shop upgraded those parts to higher temperature equivalents - it sounds better than ever.

I must admit I don't have a subwoofer or the extra presence speakers but my Boston Acoustics VR20 mains work fine for both. I usually listen to TV audio with the Yamaha using the "Enhanced Dolby Digital / Enhanced Dolby Surround", but for plain music listening - I prefer plain stereo.

Yes - it lacks as an A/V receiver now since it can't handle video beyond composite / S-Video, but it still sounds great. It works wonderfully as a Dolby DIgital decoder / amp.
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#8 OFFLINE   elaclair

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 02:42 PM

I still use my 2095 in my home theatre...which replaced a DSP-1 many moon ago. I'm looking closely at the 3800/3900, waiting patiently for HDMI 1.4 support.

I do find that I use the DSP room settings mostly with music, but on certain movies it does provide a significantly expanded sound field.

Like Carl said....play with it. You may just find that one "sweet" setting that you can't believe you lived without.

#9 OFFLINE   Polardog

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 03:54 PM

One more question.
While the unit is turned off I know this unit passes through HDMI video signal. Does it also pass through HDMI audio signal ? Some of the time I spend watching TV I do not turn on my A/V reciever but instead listen to news, weather,etc through the TV's speakers. Can I hook up my HDMI cables to this unit and watch TV sound and all without turning on the Yamaha ? Or, do I need to run audio cables seperately to the TV ?

Thank You ..


Still hoping I can get an answer to this question. I have not started the install yet as there is lots to do to get my A/V console ready for the Yamaha upgrade. I'll probably do this on Saturday. If no one here can answer this question then I will call Yamaha support. I just want to make sure I have all cables so I do this only once.
I'm quite excited about the new Yamaha. I've read through many posts here and realize that Yamaha is well respected. In fact, DBS Talk was the reason the Yamaha seed was planted in my head.
My new RX-V665 will be replacing a 6 year old Denon 1710 which has been malfunctioning lately. Also, the Yamaha has newer technology built in. The Denon treated me very well.
Thank you all for your comments and advice.
Ed.

#10 OFFLINE   Carl Spock

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 07:14 AM

Just bench your new Yamaha receiver and try this out.

Before you run all the cables (in fact you could do it tonight), with the receiver sitting on the floor or a convenient table, plug everything in and try this out. Use a DVD player for a source if you want to make things simpler and not have to hook up your satellite tuner. First run everything with the receiver powered up. Then turn off the receiver and see what you get. If this works, it will only do it for the last input selected.
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#11 OFFLINE   Cholly

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 08:17 AM

Key to Carl's suggestion: If this works, it will only work for the last input selected. In other words, because the RX-V665 has multiple HDMI inputs, feeding to a single HDMI output, only one of those inputs could conceivably be fed to the output, and that input would be the last one selected when the receiver was powered on.
I have an RX-V663, and had never tried to see if it actually passes the HDMI input through until this morning, and it does not. My receiver must be turned on. I've only tried this with the input from my TiVo DVR and not the one from my HD DVD/Blu-ray player. I suppose it's possible that ONE of the HDMI inputs will pass through to the output if the receiver is in standby.

Charlie
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Family Room: Samsung UN60F7100 60" LED 3D TV; Samsung  BD-H5900 3D Blu-Ray DVD player; Yamaha RX-V663 AVR. Paradigm speakers - Focus fronts, CC170 center, PDR-8 subwoofer, Atom surrounds, ADP rear center; TiVo Roamio Plus DVR, Toshiba HD-A3 HD DVD player.
Bedroom: Vizio 42" 3D TV, Pioneer VSX-521-K AVR, Panasonic 3D DVD player, Energy Take Classic 5.1 speakers, Roku 2 XD, TiVo Premiere, Insignia HD radio tuner, Toshiba HD DVD player


#12 OFFLINE   Carl Spock

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 11:17 AM

I suppose it's possible that ONE of the HDMI inputs will pass through to the output if the receiver is in standby.

I'd be surprised if there was a default HDMI input that would have pass-through. Part of setting up a Yamaha receiver is assigning the HDMI jacks to specific video sources. They don't really have a default setting.

FWIW, my RX-V1800 is like your RX-V663, Cholly. It doesn't pass diddly-squat unless it's turned on.
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#13 OFFLINE   lugnutathome

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 12:14 PM

The pass through when off is a "new" feature they introduced with the Z11. I don't use it. The DTV box does not render DTS nor any HD audio streams onlt 2 channel PCM and DD5.1. So I connect it's HDMI direct to the TV and run an optical to the receiver.

This gives me an "extra" HDMI port to use for other things.

It would make sense that this feature would use the last input used as the Yamaha does that on many levels. It remembers input settings last used with a particular audio input format so its actually consistent if you think about it.

I don't know if it passes the audio when "off" either as I always set my units to not pass audio via HDMI so I can make use of DTS and the HD audio formats. I assume that setting would trump the audio pass through but...

Don "experiment and report. I'm mildly curious now" Bolton

I'd be surprised if there was a default HDMI input that would have pass-through. Part of setting up a Yamaha receiver is assigning the HDMI jacks to specific video sources. They don't really have a default setting.

FWIW, my RX-V1800 is like your RX-V663, Cholly. It doesn't pass diddly-squat unless it's turned on.


Go fast, turn left, repeat until done.


#14 OFFLINE   lugnutathome

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 12:27 PM

The HDMI's usually come defaulted to Cable/Sat, DVD, , BR/HD, DTV and others beyond that I don't recall off hand. They are re assignable but not always to all the input names you might wish to use.

I currently have an RX-V2600, RX-V3800, and RX-Z11 in operation at home and other than the 2600 which only has 2 HDMI inputs I've been fine with the the defaults using 4 HDMI connected devices. I have had to reassign optical inputs around a bit though;)

Very flexible but pretty much easy to use straight out of the box assignments now that they have more than 2 HDMI input ports.

Don "had a RX-V1600 at one point as well" Bolton

I'd be surprised if there was a default HDMI input that would have pass-through. Part of setting up a Yamaha receiver is assigning the HDMI jacks to specific video sources. They don't really have a default setting.

FWIW, my RX-V1800 is like your RX-V663, Cholly. It doesn't pass diddly-squat unless it's turned on.


Go fast, turn left, repeat until done.


#15 OFFLINE   Carl Spock

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 01:48 PM

I'll admit that I may be over-thinking this one, but from my perspective these are HDMI presets but not default settings.

My thinking is that on my RX-V1800, they are labeled HDMI 1, 2, 3 & 4 on the back panel, not HDMI Cable/Sat or anything like that.

And you are right that you can't move them as much as you might want to. I have every last input used on my RX-V1800, and a few of them are serving double duty, with the analog and digital sides of inputs hooked up to different pieces. By using my Harmony remote to select Analog In or Auto Digital when entering an activity, I can toggle between the two sources on one input. With this much complexity, I wanted to have one of the audio inputs become a video one, too. No can do. You can't assign an HDMI input to, say, the CD input.
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#16 OFFLINE   lugnutathome

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 03:09 PM

OK I'll buy the semantics:) My 3800 (same chassis as the 1800) I thought had the 1-4 labeling along with the preset labels. Maybe thats part of the extras between the 1800 and the 3800?:grin:

Using ALL the inputs? Man I thought I had a lot of gear:D

Love my Yamaha equipment! I also have a YSP-1000 in the master bedroom.

Don "anything worth doing is worth doing to excess" Bolton

I'll admit that I may be over-thinking this one, but from my perspective these are HDMI presets but not default settings.

My thinking is that on my RX-V1800, they are labeled HDMI 1, 2, 3 & 4 on the back panel, not HDMI Cable/Sat or anything like that.

And you are right that you can't move them as much as you might want to. I have every last input used on my RX-V1800, and a few of them are serving double duty, with the analog and digital sides of inputs hooked up to different pieces. By using my Harmony remote to select Analog In or Auto Digital when entering an activity, I can toggle between the two sources on one input. With this much complexity, I wanted to have one of the audio inputs become a video one, too. No can do. You can't assign an HDMI input to, say, the CD input.


Go fast, turn left, repeat until done.


#17 OFFLINE   kikkenit2

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 04:44 PM

Using ALL the inputs? Man I thought I had a lot of gear.

The software limits the amount of inputs. There aren't enough input options in the menu to support all the hardware inputs available.

#18 OFFLINE   Carl Spock

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 06:53 PM

My 3800 (same chassis as the 1800) I thought had the 1-4 labeling along with the preset labels. Maybe thats part of the extras between the 1800 and the 3800?:grin:

Now you made me look. You're right. It is labeled both ways. I stand (or sit, typing) corrected.

The more I get into this, the further out on the limb I get...and now I think I hear a chain saw. :grin:

Posted Image

Using ALL the inputs? Man I thought I had a lot of gear:D


I have so much, I can't fit it all in my new entertainment center. One piece, a Sony DAT player, is in the basement, below, running into the cabinet via a Smurf tube. A remote repeater allows me to control the player from upstairs but obviously, I have to go downstairs to change tapes. :D

CD - Sony 5 disc CD changer
CD-R - Polk Audio XM tuner
MD/Tape - music server on the whole house music system
DVD - Panasonic Blu-ray player
BD/HD DVD - analog: Yamaha LaserDisc player // digital: Sony DAT player
DTV/CBL - DirecTV HR20-700 receiver
DVR - Toshiba HD DVD player
VCR - Toshiba VHS player
V-Aux (front panel) - output of mixer for playback when I'm recording music in my living room, something I do at least once a month.

I can't remember why now, but there was a technical reason I put the HD DVD player on the DVR input rather than the BD/HD DVD input.

And I lied. I'm not using the phono input, although I am using Zone 3 out to feed a stand alone phono system in another room (Zone 2 feeds the whole house audio system).

Wrong twice in one post. What else is new? :P
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#19 OFFLINE   scooper

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 07:59 PM

Wow - I need a new receiver someday.... that does everything mine does plus handle the HDTV stuff as well....
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#20 OFFLINE   Polardog

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 08:53 PM

I absolutely love the enthusiasm here....

I spent the whole day with my Yamaha.
This morning I went back to the store for a small sub-woofer and a pair of speaker stands.
I have an aging Bose Acoustomas 5 speaker system (for FL, FR & Center channels with a passive Bose sub). I have smaller Bose dual cubes for my LR & RR surround. A old pair of Advent speakers for my surround back (don't know the model #'s of the Advents).
I bought the stands to bring the front speakers up to ear level and put a bit more distance between L&R.
I purchased an Energy ESW-C8 sub to help out the Bose passive sub.
I live in a small home with a small living room so I really cannot use the big guns in my home.
This afternoon through till about 8pm I tore all the old stuff out and installed the Yamaha.

Hooked to the Yamaha is:

1-Samsung BDP 1590 Buu-ray player
2-Toshiba VHS/Dvd player/recorder which upscales thru HDMI.
3-My Dish Network HD DVR.
(I'm using 3 of the 4 HDMI inputs on the Yamaha).

1 HDMI output cable from the Yamaha to my 47" Phillips 1080P 120 Hz TV.

The Yamaha does indeed pass thru both HDMI video signal and audio signal. It was all there right in the owners manual buried deep inside advance settings.
Hit "setup" on the remote go to HDMI function setup. Scroll to the "control" feature. The choices are on/off. Default is off. With this setting I had no picture or sound on my Phillips with the Yamaha in "stand by" (off). Changed the setting to "on" and with the Yamaha in stand by the TV picture and sound was fine (sound from the TV speakers). This is what I wanted because I do not always turn on my amp to watch news, weather, etc. Especially in the AM after I crawl out of bed and am not interested in hearing Billy Mays (RIP) or other annoying noises cable channels have generated on their computers screaming at me through 7.2 speakers.

I messed around with the unit this evening checking that each component worked properly. Slipped in a CD (listened in 7 channel enhanced), watched a bit of EPIX, put in a blu-ray (Avatar) and watched a bit of it so I could get a feel of my new 665.
All in all I'm very happy.
One observation I've already made is that the Yamaha is much easier to control (menus, sub-menus, inputs, DSP settings, etc than the Denon. Part of the reason is that the Yamaha display (both on the front panel of the 665 and the TV) make it easier for me to navigate. No video was hooked up to my Denon (no HDMI inputs on this older model) and the front panel display was very small and hard to see with my old eyes.

So, day 1 with my new toy went well.

And, thanks to DBSTalk for motivating me to buy a Yamaha. I watch many movies both recorded on my DVR (I have most if not all of Dish Networks movie channels with my Everything pack) and DVD discs that I constantly buy.

And thanks for your input here after I posted this thread.
I'll let you know how things go foward now.

#21 OFFLINE   Carl Spock

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 06:56 AM

I'm glad things are going well for you, Polardog, and that you are having so much fun learning about your equipment. When I got into home audio, it was still a hobby. It became an appliance over the years and most people stopped playing around with the boxes. Not you. :) This stuff can bring enjoyment, not just a way to watch the news. Good work.

:joy:

Since you are using two subs, make sure they are in phase with each other. On the back of the Energy sub there is a phase switch. You want it in the position that gives you the most bass. Depending on the source and location of the two subs, the difference could be subtle. Maybe in the middle of watching a movie, flip the phase switch and watch some more. With time you'll hear the difference. You don't want the two subs moving opposite of each other, canceling each other out. You want them in phase with each other, reinforcing each other's bass.

The other sub hint I can give you is once you get the output of the Energy sub close to where you want it, fine tune it by using the crossover and volume controls on the back of the sub in tandem and opposite of each other. In other words, if you turn up the output, turn down the crossover. If you turn down the sub's volume, tweak up the crossover point.
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#22 OFFLINE   Polardog

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 07:41 AM

Since you are using two subs, make sure they are in phase with each other.


Good morning Carl.
I played a bit with the energy sub last night trying to see if the subs were out of phase. I need to set aside enough time to watch a movie that will give the subs a workout so I can make any adjustments.
Up until yesterday I was only using the Bose passive sub which is located behind my sofa in the only open area (a window opening) behind me. It is a small opening that also is the location for my L&R back speakers. The room is quite small so much so that if I were to locate the Bose sub up front it would stick out into the room. Chosing a second sub (the Energy ESW-C8) required care in making sure the new sub did not stick out into the room. The Energy was perfect (although I would have liked a 10" sub). So, 1 sub foward and 1 sub behind me.

My setup before yesterday with the Bose sub behind me was good. The bass was very evenly distributed through the room and the lowest notes rumbled your butt. The front firing Bose was not in anyones line of sight or sound. It was literally unseen.....but you could hear & feel it's effects very well.
Now with the Energy up front and left my eyes travel to the sub because the sound seems to be more directional to me. Something I guess I need to work with.

Most of you would probably gasp at the room I have my home theatre in. Lots of sharp angles, a steeply angled ceiling that runs down to a 52" hip wall on 2 sides, many openings. The LF speaker is mere inches from the kitchen threshold which sports a half wall. The RF speaker is mere inches from the front entrance "hall". The entire room is approx 12' X 15".
Not complaining. I completely enjoy my media setup. And, living in the middle of 34 acres allows me to watch and listen to movies and music loudly anytime of day or night, even with windows open.

Ed.




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