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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Unapproved DECA to switch setup?


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38 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 06:25 PM

In our case, the installer who did the MRV upgrade didn't provide a network DECA, so we picked up a 10/100 switch and stuck it between the basement HR21 and the DECA (there was already a cat5 connection available there). Nothing else is on that switch. I've done some MRV testing with all three DVR's (an HR24 with built-in DECA, an HR22 with "proper" DECA install, and the HR21 with the 10/100 switch between it and the DECA). The only difference I could notice was that playback started a little faster if the HR24 was the server (most likely due to the faster processor in that unit). There was no discernible difference whatsoever between the HR22 and HR21, so the 10/100 switch has no apparent effect on performance in our setup.

In your case the installer should have added the DECA to router bridge, since it was part of your upgrade.
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#22 OFFLINE   dennisj00

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 06:35 PM

Somebody needs to explain to me and the others what additional / spurious network traffic this is imposing / causing on the DECA cloud. It actually looks like a good way to avoid one more Deca adapter and power supply for the broadband interconnect.

I may try it depending on the results of my installation tomorrow and report back.

(No conclusions in advance, but I'd bet there's no appreciable difference - it's a 100MB or GB switch.)

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#23 OFFLINE   dennisj00

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 06:42 PM

One more thing (without going against the grain here), from reading the terribly long threads about the DECA / MRV threads, 'unsupported' seems to mean something between what the installers haven't done / don't know / or WE (people here) haven't provided the training / pictures / work arounds for them.

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#24 OFFLINE   RobertE

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 09:10 PM

One more thing (without going against the grain here), from reading the terribly long threads about the DECA / MRV threads, 'unsupported' seems to mean something between what the installers haven't done / don't know / or WE (people here) haven't provided the training / pictures / work arounds for them.


That means, if the installer was to show up and see this bastardization of a setup, be prepared for him to say "Not my problem to fix" and leave.
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#25 OFFLINE   Go Beavs

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 09:43 PM

Somebody needs to explain to me and the others what additional / spurious network traffic this is imposing / causing on the DECA cloud. It actually looks like a good way to avoid one more Deca adapter and power supply for the broadband interconnect.

I may try it depending on the results of my installation tomorrow and report back.

(No conclusions in advance, but I'd bet there's no appreciable difference - it's a 100MB or GB switch.)


I just got my DECA units today from Solid Signal. I set mine up in this manner to avoid just that... having to purchase another adapter and PI just to get the internet on the cloud.

My HR22 is on the 'cloud' and my HR21 is on a gig switch that has the 2nd DECA adapter on it.

So far so good, no problems and it's a huge improvement over my wireless 'N' hybrid setup.

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#26 OFFLINE   Grentz

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 10:31 PM

Somebody needs to explain to me and the others what additional / spurious network traffic this is imposing / causing on the DECA cloud. It actually looks like a good way to avoid one more Deca adapter and power supply for the broadband interconnect.

I may try it depending on the results of my installation tomorrow and report back.

(No conclusions in advance, but I'd bet there's no appreciable difference - it's a 100MB or GB switch.)



I can tell you right now it works fine and has no appreciable difference at all in my testing (I have run a hybrid DECA/Ethernet network for awhile now). But that does not change the fact that it is unsupported and if ANY issues arise, it is expected that you remove it from the equation to see what is going on.
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#27 OFFLINE   premio

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 12:41 AM

Somebody needs to explain to me and the others what additional / spurious network traffic this is imposing / causing on the DECA cloud. It actually looks like a good way to avoid one more Deca adapter and power supply for the broadband interconnect.

I may try it depending on the results of my installation tomorrow and report back.

(No conclusions in advance, but I'd bet there's no appreciable difference - it's a 100MB or GB switch.)


I haven't made the phone call yet to order this stuff yet (my disclaimer), but from a network perspective and how I /think/ this is working:

The negative is that the DECA device is negotiating one channel on the RG6 LAN (why are people calling this a cloud?). Let's say that channel has 100Mb of throughput. In theory the receiver needs all of that, when you split that bandwidth out to to other devices you are possibly limiting what is available to the receiver. Since there is no QoS *quality of service* built into most consumer switches, the second device could theoretically take needed bandwidth away from the receiver causing frame dropouts, frozen screens, etc. If you're sharing it to other devices that simply need internet, most likely your internet pipe itself will limit throughput to the other devices. My PS3, tv, HD-DVD, and HR20 will go on one switch connected to a DECA. They will be limited by the fact that my Internet is only 18Mbps, leaving 82Mbps for the receiver's video traffic.

Now, if you were to install a laptop on that switch and start copying 40Gb of movies/music from a local computer connected via a different DECA segment, you'll likely steal all the bandwidth and mess MRV up. DirecTV did not design this to be your all purpose network backbone.

Educating consumers on the effects that their other computer habits would have on MRV would be a nightmare, I don't blame D* for saying its not supported.
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#28 OFFLINE   hitokage

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 04:22 AM

(why are people calling this a cloud?)

It's one of the current popular IT industry buzzwords like SaS.

As soon as I get a hold of some DECAs I'm going to try some experiments.

#29 OFFLINE   BudShark

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 05:37 AM

Seems very clean. Is this method approved? Are there any issues with connecting this way?


Couple points:
1) As others have pointed out, the HR attached is not supported since its technically Ethernet, but it'd be easy to swap it to supported in this scenario. :) Let your conscience be your guide. ;)
2) In terms of what you are doing - realistically the picture makes it worse than it really is. The ONLY thing you have done is used an HR as a power supply. Good/Bad/Acceptable? Who knows. Worth it? I wouldn't really think so, nor does it seem like this would make sense in the vast majority of installations.

So, is the method approved? From an installer or D* perspective? No. Will it work? Obviously. Is it the best setup? Its up to you... I wouldn't do it because it ties together components that don't need to be tied together. I'd rather just put the DECA on the HR and get a DECA bridge and put it in place. Would eliminate a whole lot of questions, further isolate the traffic, bring better QoS to the cloud, etc.

Cloud = Since DECA is installed in an RF environment that is not linear, but multipath - it is commonly called a cloud because the path a signal takes may not always be consistent. The packet enters the "cloud" (your RF wiring) and exits at the end device. Exactly how it gets there we don't know. Versus Ethernet where you have predictable and defined paths - no questions there.

#30 OFFLINE   David MacLeod

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 06:29 AM

why pay for deca and support then do something like that.
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#31 OFFLINE   David MacLeod

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 06:31 AM

That means, if the installer was to show up and see this bastardization of a setup, be prepared for him to say "Not my problem to fix" and leave.


did I see mention somewhere that is other systems in house had issues and this were found it would be unplugged and the customer charged for fixes?
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#32 OFFLINE   RobertE

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 07:34 AM

did I see mention somewhere that is other systems in house had issues and this were found it would be unplugged and the customer charged for fixes?


If the tech determines that the root cause of the issues is customer caused, then yes the customer can be charged for the cost of the repair and the truck roll, even if they have the protection plan.

The customer must be advised and agree to the charges before the repairs are made. If the customer says no, then the tech can walk, leaving the customer to DIY.
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#33 OFFLINE   dwcolvin

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 07:35 AM

That means, if the installer was to show up and see this bastardization of a setup, be prepared for him to say "Not my problem to fix" and leave.


As they will for anyone with the MRV 'u' flag set... in fact, I wouldn't expect an installer to even be dispatched.

I absolutely do not advocate anyone not network-saavy to do anything but have a complete, supported DECA install (unfortunately, we all know how well that's working in some cases).

But for capable DIYers, this works.

#34 OFFLINE   RobertE

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 07:45 AM

As they will for anyone with the MRV 'u' flag set... in fact, I wouldn't expect an installer to even be dispatched.

I absolutely do not advocate anyone not network-saavy to do anything but have a complete, supported DECA install (unfortunately, we all know how well that's working in some cases).

But for capable DIYers, this works.


You'd be surprised at what people pull to try and get free service calls and/or free service. :nono2:
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#35 OFFLINE   dwcolvin

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 07:51 AM

I haven't made the phone call yet to order this stuff yet (my disclaimer), but from a network perspective and how I /think/ this is working:

The negative is that the DECA device is negotiating one channel on the RG6 LAN (why are people calling this a cloud?). Let's say that channel has 100Mb of throughput. In theory the receiver needs all of that, when you split that bandwidth out to to other devices you are possibly limiting what is available to the receiver. Since there is no QoS *quality of service* built into most consumer switches, the second device could theoretically take needed bandwidth away from the receiver causing frame dropouts, frozen screens, etc. If you're sharing it to other devices that simply need internet, most likely your internet pipe itself will limit throughput to the other devices. My PS3, tv, HD-DVD, and HR20 will go on one switch connected to a DECA. They will be limited by the fact that my Internet is only 18Mbps, leaving 82Mbps for the receiver's video traffic.

Now, if you were to install a laptop on that switch and start copying 40Gb of movies/music from a local computer connected via a different DECA segment, you'll likely steal all the bandwidth and mess MRV up. DirecTV did not design this to be your all purpose network backbone.

Educating consumers on the effects that their other computer habits would have on MRV would be a nightmare, I don't blame D* for saying its not supported.


There is no doubt that the DECA here is a 100 Mbps bottleneck. :grin:
The worst case scenario is that two DVRs on DECA are streaming to two Ethernet-attached receivers. In practice, this is not a problem :)
(and if it were, moving the DVRs back to Gigabit Ethernet would fix it).

The switch in this case is Gigabit, not consumer, and has nothing else attached so is isolated from any other non-D* traffic (at least, as much as all-DECA with IC is).

Once again, I do not advocate this for anyone but knowledgeable DIYers who already have receivers on an Ethernet network (or as a stop-gap for improperly installed DECA upgrades).

#36 OFFLINE   Grentz

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 10:24 AM

The negative is that the DECA device is negotiating one channel on the RG6 LAN (why are people calling this a cloud?).


It's being called a cloud because it is more of a P2P setup. There is no central switch or other device handling the connections like in a typical network. Each DECA just seeks out other DECAs and they form their own "cloud" without having any main device controlling them.

That, and cloud is a popular IT word right now :D
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#37 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 10:27 AM

It's being called a cloud because it is more of a P2P setup. There is no central switch or other device handling the connections like in a typical network. Each DECA just seeks out other DECAs and they form their own "cloud" without having any main device controlling them.

That, and cloud is a popular IT word right now :D

Anybody trying to follow the RF signals, will understand why "cloud" is used.
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#38 OFFLINE   premio

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 08:20 PM

Anybody trying to follow the RF signals, will understand why "cloud" is used.


Thanks,

I was under the impression that a cloud reference meant that the services had to be Internet based, specifically since the term was derived from the old Visio diagram used for the Internet - which was a cloud.

I'm also going to start calling WLAN's a cloud now which use RF. I could have sworn coax passed electrons in different frequencies, but didn't rely on Radio transmission. Back to EE school for me.
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#39 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 09:00 PM

Thanks,

I was under the impression that a cloud reference meant that the services had to be Internet based, specifically since the term was derived from the old Visio diagram used for the Internet - which was a cloud.

I'm also going to start calling WLAN's a cloud now which use RF. I could have sworn coax passed electrons in different frequencies, but didn't rely on Radio transmission. Back to EE school for me.

WLANs you can at least recognize the signal path "A to B", where as within the coax & splitters, the DECA signal has multiple paths and by trying to monitor them, the act of doing so can change the path used. I look at this more like an electron cloud, where there is no certainty of exactly where the electron is at any on point in time, hence "the cloud".
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