Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo

Why does DirecTV push reboots during active recordings?

swim

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
74 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   tonyd79

tonyd79

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 12,701 posts
  • LocationColumbia, MD
Joined: Jul 24, 2006

Posted 08 June 2010 - 03:19 PM

That logic doesn't hold up. If the box doesn't respond, reboot. If it does respond though, then it's highly probable that a reboot isn't needed right that instant, and it can be delayed.


You know for a fact that it would not respond to whether it was recording or not? One of my boxes was unresponsive this morning but I could watch programming from it via MRV in another room. They were not totally unresponsive. They kept doing stuff like recording or showing video.

There are too many variables and this was an emergency situation. Force the damned reboot. Do it at a marginally acceptable time. Since late at night is too far away, do it during the typical commercial break.

Edit to add: Maybe you thought I meant it wouldn't respond. I meant that the answer was not dependable. It may have been recording because it was supposed to or it may have been recording because it got stuck. Doubt they could ask it that.
LR: HR34-700, H24-200, Fios DVR, BD350 Blu Ray, Roku Netflix Player, Chromecast, Sony 65w850 TV
BR: HR21-200, Viso 32LX, DB350 Blu Ray
Dish: Slimline, SWM8
Other: genieGo

...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#22 OFFLINE   prospero63

prospero63

    Godfather

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 330 posts
Joined: Aug 30, 2008

Posted 08 June 2010 - 03:21 PM

You know for a fact that it would not respond to whether it was recording or not? One of my boxes was unresponsive this morning but I could watch programming from it via MRV in another room. They were not totally unresponsive. They kept doing stuff like recording or showing video.


I no more know for a fact than you do. That's why it's called an improvement.

There are too many variables and this was an emergency situation. Force the damned reboot. Do it at a marginally acceptable time. Since late at night is too far away, do it during the typical commercial break.


I have to think you are totally missing the point here.

#23 OFFLINE   tonyd79

tonyd79

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 12,701 posts
  • LocationColumbia, MD
Joined: Jul 24, 2006

Posted 08 June 2010 - 03:25 PM

I know more know for a fact than you do. That's why it's called an improvement.


Huh? I just demonstrated to you that the boxes while stuck were still doing stuff. And you "know" that it would not respond "I am recording?" How in the hell would you know that?

I have to think you are totally missing the point here.

What is the point? You decided that DirecTV has no code in their boxes for reboots because they forced one today in an emergency. I have never seen a software push break up a recording before. What is your point, then?
LR: HR34-700, H24-200, Fios DVR, BD350 Blu Ray, Roku Netflix Player, Chromecast, Sony 65w850 TV
BR: HR21-200, Viso 32LX, DB350 Blu Ray
Dish: Slimline, SWM8
Other: genieGo

#24 OFFLINE   prospero63

prospero63

    Godfather

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 330 posts
Joined: Aug 30, 2008

Posted 08 June 2010 - 03:37 PM

Huh? I just demonstrated to you that the boxes while stuck were still doing stuff. And you "know" that it would not respond "I am recording?" How in the hell would you know that?


So because they were still "doing stuff" you contend it's impossible to know whether a receiver is active or not? As for how to know, that's why customers bring up issues and hopefully they get taken back to DirecTV to determine what, if anything, can be done. It's really a very simple thing.

What is the point? You decided that DirecTV has no code in their boxes for reboots because they forced one today in an emergency. I have never seen a software push break up a recording before. What is your point, then?


Re-read the thread. I shouldn't need to explain it again. :nono:

#25 OFFLINE   ricochet

ricochet

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 78 posts
Joined: Aug 20, 2006

Posted 08 June 2010 - 03:44 PM

That logic doesn't hold up. If the box doesn't respond, reboot. If it does respond though, then it's highly probable that a reboot isn't needed right that instant, and it can be delayed.


How does the box respond? There is no communication back to the head end that sends the reboot command.

Given that they can reboot boxes that are locked up I suspect they are using some sort of very low level reset. If you are going to have some sort of fail safe like this you want it as basic as possible. Ideally a hardware mechanism so it doesn't depend on any software that might be messed up but I don't know that they can do that. If the "fix" requires normal running software then there is no reason for the fix.

#26 OFFLINE   tonyd79

tonyd79

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 12,701 posts
  • LocationColumbia, MD
Joined: Jul 24, 2006

Posted 08 June 2010 - 03:46 PM

So because they were still "doing stuff" you contend it's impossible to know whether a receiver is active or not? As for how to know, that's why customers bring up issues and hopefully they get taken back to DirecTV to determine what, if anything, can be done. It's really a very simple thing.


I said that they were still responding in some ways to outside requests in response to you saying "if the box doesn't respond" because that told me that it may very well respond to a question of "are you recording." But, as many were reporting bogus recordings, there is no way of telling if the recording is legitimate or not. Therefore, if you ask the box if it is recording and it says "yes" and you hold off on reboot, then you may never get to the reboot if the recording was not accurate (at least until the drive fills up which could be a very long time).

And you need to reread the thread....

You said: "If it does respond though, then it's highly probable that a reboot isn't needed right that instant, and it can be delayed."

Did you miss the part about the recording status may be a symptom of the problem in this case?
LR: HR34-700, H24-200, Fios DVR, BD350 Blu Ray, Roku Netflix Player, Chromecast, Sony 65w850 TV
BR: HR21-200, Viso 32LX, DB350 Blu Ray
Dish: Slimline, SWM8
Other: genieGo

#27 OFFLINE   prospero63

prospero63

    Godfather

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 330 posts
Joined: Aug 30, 2008

Posted 08 June 2010 - 03:50 PM

How does the box respond? There is no communication back to the head end that sends the reboot command.

Given that they can reboot boxes that are locked up I suspect they are using some sort of very low level reset. If you are going to have some sort of fail safe like this you want it as basic as possible. Ideally a hardware mechanism so it doesn't depend on any software that might be messed up but I don't know that they can do that. If the "fix" requires normal running software then there is no reason for the fix.


I'm with you. I'm not trying to design the thing here, just conveying the idea. I think it's entirely within the realm of plausible functionality. I'm not trying to say it's easy, but there's plenty of conceptual ideas I can think of in the context of "is it possible".

#28 OFFLINE   prospero63

prospero63

    Godfather

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 330 posts
Joined: Aug 30, 2008

Posted 08 June 2010 - 03:51 PM

I said that they were still responding in some ways to outside requests in response to you saying "if the box doesn't respond" because that told me that it may very well respond to a question of "are you recording." But, as many were reporting bogus recordings, there is no way of telling if the recording is legitimate or not. Therefore, if you ask the box if it is recording and it says "yes" and you hold off on reboot, then you may never get to the reboot if the recording was not accurate (at least until the drive fills up which could be a very long time).

And you need to reread the thread....

You said: "If it does respond though, then it's highly probable that a reboot isn't needed right that instant, and it can be delayed."

Did you miss the part about the recording status may be a symptom of the problem in this case?


Gotcha. You are flagged in the "it can't be done" category. Duly noted.

#29 OFFLINE   richiephx

richiephx

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 333 posts
Joined: Jan 18, 2006

Posted 08 June 2010 - 03:54 PM

Aaah, the joys and comfort of cutting edge technology.
TNT: WE KNOW INTERRUPTIONS
TBS: TURNER BROADCASTING SUCKS
NBC: NATIONAL BOREDCASTING COMPANY

#30 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

Doug Brott

    Lifetime Achiever

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 28,929 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles
Joined: Jul 12, 2006

Posted 08 June 2010 - 04:12 PM

Is it better to design, build and test the "decider" function or just send out a "let 'er rip" signal?

With primetime only 5 hours away from when the trigger was pulled and the majority of customers not home anyway, it kinda seems like "fire in the hole" was the right answer for this one. They typical downtime was ~15 minutes .. It wasn't a perfect solution, but it was a speedy solution and allowed DIRECTV to move from reacting to cleaning up.
DIRECTV Firmware Monitor - iPhone - Android - HTML5

DIRECTV employee since August 2011.
All comments are my own. Unless specifically stated, my views do NOT represent the views of DIRECTV

#31 OFFLINE   prospero63

prospero63

    Godfather

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 330 posts
Joined: Aug 30, 2008

Posted 08 June 2010 - 04:14 PM

Is it better to design, build and test the "decider" function or just send out a "let 'er rip" signal?

With primetime only 5 hours away from when the trigger was pulled and the majority of customers not home anyway, it kinda seems like "fire in the hole" was the right answer for this one. They typical downtime was ~15 minutes .. It wasn't a perfect solution, but it was a speedy solution and allowed DIRECTV to move from reacting to cleaning up.


Yep, I agree with you on this one. I'm more concerned at this point with the next one. :)

#32 OFFLINE   tonyd79

tonyd79

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 12,701 posts
  • LocationColumbia, MD
Joined: Jul 24, 2006

Posted 08 June 2010 - 05:35 PM

Gotcha. You are flagged in the "it can't be done" category. Duly noted.


No, I am in the "you are over-simplifying and not using logic" category. I fix problems like this for a living. Without all the informaton yet gathering what I see, I can see where they did what they did today. I have been impressed with some of the technical decisions and problem fixing DirecTV has done lately, especially their response to today's issue and how they handled the D10 amelioration.
LR: HR34-700, H24-200, Fios DVR, BD350 Blu Ray, Roku Netflix Player, Chromecast, Sony 65w850 TV
BR: HR21-200, Viso 32LX, DB350 Blu Ray
Dish: Slimline, SWM8
Other: genieGo

#33 OFFLINE   prospero63

prospero63

    Godfather

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 330 posts
Joined: Aug 30, 2008

Posted 08 June 2010 - 06:00 PM

No, I am in the "you are over-simplifying and not using logic" category. I fix problems like this for a living. Without all the informaton yet gathering what I see, I can see where they did what they did today. I have been impressed with some of the technical decisions and problem fixing DirecTV has done lately, especially their response to today's issue and how they handled the D10 amelioration.


You must be the only guy here that does. I guess I don't get impressed by how a company responds to problems they create, I get impressed by how they prevent the problems from happening in the first place. You continue to miss my point though, which is fine. Keep it over-complex. :D

#34 OFFLINE   DogLover

DogLover

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 2,510 posts
Joined: Mar 18, 2007

Posted 08 June 2010 - 06:43 PM

In simple terms, if they don't send a "reboot now, no matter what" signal, they open up the possiblity that some boxes won't reboot and get the fix. There's just no reasonable way around that.

If they create a "reboot when you are not recording signal", then the box that is broke may be too broke to correctly know or respond to that signal. It may lock up between the "am I recording?" and the "I'm not, so I must reboot" instructions.

Even if there was some practical way to have a 2-way communication to DirecTV, you would be suggesting that a program individually send a signal to each box, wait for a response. If they get a response saying the box is free or get no response, they send another signal to reboot. If they get a response saying the box is recording, they wait and try again later. Do they try every 1/2 hour? How long do they try before they assume that the box is responding in error and reboot anyway? How long does all this communication take. Does this mean that some people at the end of the list have to wait days for a fix, because it hasn't gotten to their box yet?

I'm not saying that one day, someone might find a way to make this work effectively. But from where I sit today, I see no way to reliably reboot 100% off the boxes that need fixing, without forcing a reboot. And in a case like this, I don't think that less than 100% reboot is acceptable customer service answer.
DogLover

My Setup

#35 OFFLINE   prospero63

prospero63

    Godfather

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 330 posts
Joined: Aug 30, 2008

Posted 08 June 2010 - 07:11 PM

In simple terms, if they don't send a "reboot now, no matter what" signal, they open up the possiblity that some boxes won't reboot and get the fix. There's just no reasonable way around that.

If they create a "reboot when you are not recording signal", then the box that is broke may be too broke to correctly know or respond to that signal. It may lock up between the "am I recording?" and the "I'm not, so I must reboot" instructions.

Even if there was some practical way to have a 2-way communication to DirecTV, you would be suggesting that a program individually send a signal to each box, wait for a response. If they get a response saying the box is free or get no response, they send another signal to reboot. If they get a response saying the box is recording, they wait and try again later. Do they try every 1/2 hour? How long do they try before they assume that the box is responding in error and reboot anyway? How long does all this communication take. Does this mean that some people at the end of the list have to wait days for a fix, because it hasn't gotten to their box yet?

I'm not saying that one day, someone might find a way to make this work effectively. But from where I sit today, I see no way to reliably reboot 100% off the boxes that need fixing, without forcing a reboot. And in a case like this, I don't think that less than 100% reboot is acceptable customer service answer.


Again, you've fixated on the design. Two way communications, etc. I merely presented a set of requirements. Whether that's done through two way communications, through having flags set in the receiver, through having separate hardware isolated from the receiver software, etc. is for DirecTV to figure out. There's all kinds of OoB mechanisms that exist in all kinds of products today that can accomplish this kind of task. That's all I've said here. I think it can be done and I think DirecTV should invest time determining if there's a feasible way to make these kinds of things even less of a burden on their users. Nothing more, nothing less.

#36 OFFLINE   Stuart Sweet

Stuart Sweet

    The Shadow Knows!

  • Super Moderators
  • 36,906 posts
Joined: Jun 18, 2006

Posted 08 June 2010 - 07:13 PM

Bottom line, they've only had to pull this trigger a couple of times and hopefully they won't have to again.
Opinions expressed by me are my own and do not necessarily reflect
those of DBSTalk.com, DIRECTV, DISH, The Signal Group, or any other company.

#37 OFFLINE   prospero63

prospero63

    Godfather

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 330 posts
Joined: Aug 30, 2008

Posted 08 June 2010 - 07:15 PM

Bottom line, they've only had to pull this trigger a couple of times and hopefully they won't have to again.


That would indeed really fix it. :lol:

#38 OFFLINE   DogLover

DogLover

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 2,510 posts
Joined: Mar 18, 2007

Posted 08 June 2010 - 07:56 PM

Again, you've fixated on the design. Two way communications, etc. I merely presented a set of requirements. Whether that's done through two way communications, through having flags set in the receiver, through having separate hardware isolated from the receiver software, etc. is for DirecTV to figure out. There's all kinds of OoB mechanisms that exist in all kinds of products today that can accomplish this kind of task. That's all I've said here. I think it can be done and I think DirecTV should invest time determining if there's a feasible way to make these kinds of things even less of a burden on their users. Nothing more, nothing less.


Actually, I wasn't fixated on a design, just giving examples of some designs and why they wouldn't work. I had a programmer friend say that "nothing is impossible given enough time and money". But obviously time and money are limited resources.

And I would hope you'd agree that they should spend more time and money working on ways to make sure the problem doesn't happen again that would require this reboot.
DogLover

My Setup

#39 OFFLINE   prospero63

prospero63

    Godfather

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 330 posts
Joined: Aug 30, 2008

Posted 08 June 2010 - 08:05 PM

And I would hope you'd agree that they should spend more time and money working on ways to make sure the problem doesn't happen again that would require this reboot.


Yep, no doubt on that point.

#40 OFFLINE   Dradran

Dradran

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 88 posts
Joined: Apr 20, 2010

Posted 08 June 2010 - 08:35 PM

You must be the only guy here that does. I guess I don't get impressed by how a company responds to problems they create, I get impressed by how they prevent the problems from happening in the first place. You continue to miss my point though, which is fine. Keep it over-complex. :D


I am wondering how many problems DirecTv has prevented? Since they were prevented, we would never know they even happened.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: swim

Protected By... spam firewall...And...