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DIRECTV Satellite Discussion D-14 @99W


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#976 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 04:15 PM

My spectrum squatting accusations were related to the apparent disuse of the transponders at 110W up until this Summer when they were finally put into service for DIRECTVPR.

 

As inkahauts points out;

 

Just because there was a temporary delay involved in re-purposing D5 at 110 over to service in the PR qualifies as squatting?  
 

... My 101W question is about whether or not using 101W for Ka downlink to residential customers with an OTARD compliant dish is feasible. Insisting that DIRECTV and/or the FCC aren't stupid or wouldn't waste money doesn't answer the question of the physics.

 

Perhaps;

 

But as stated it's probably irrelevant since DIRECTV may never have any intention of providing Ka service from 101 to subscribers and are satisfied with keeping it reserved for back-hauling duties as at present. 
 

... My assumption is that all of the excitement about new satellites and frequencies is based on expanding the both the quality and number of channels that residential customers can receive as opposed to how DIRECTV can increase their internal or leased bandwidth.

 

But use of the Ka spectrum at 101 for back-hauling does effectively increase the number of LiL channels that can be offered to subscribers, though indirectly as was pointed out in the FCC LOA filings for the Ka band payloads aboard D8 and 9S.   


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#977 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 05:41 PM

I'm pretty sure FCC rules demand that the licenses must be used "in the public interest". Showering us with microwaves for no particular reason is not allowed.


"Pretty sure?" Perhaps a review of the service milestones and thresholds required by the license DirecTV is operating under would clear up your misunderstanding. Consider that homework. :)

As for the "showering us with microwaves" ... may I suggest a tin foil hat?

Seriously - DirecTV has not violated their license. If you have anything more that wild accusations please post. Otherwise it would be nice to get back to reality and discuss DirecTV 14. Thanks!
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#978 OFFLINE   studechip

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:55 PM

Is there anything preventing 4k signals from being broadcast on the current fleet of satellites?

My understanding is that 4k is just another modulation scheme like mpeg2/4. Is that true?



#979 ONLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 11:25 PM

Just bandwidth space being available.



#980 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 11:29 PM

MPEG2 & MPEG4 are compression schemes, not modulation schemes. 4K is a resolution, not a compression or modulation scheme.

 

They could broadcast 4K from any of their current satellites, and use either MPEG2 or MPEG4 compression (though doing so with MPEG2 would be pretty stupid) Eventually they'll want to broadcast 4K using HEVC, which is a more advanced compression scheme than MPEG4. However, 4K might start out using MPEG4, just like HD started out using MPEG2.

 

They may already be broadcasting 4K, testing new receivers that aren't available yet. If the channel doesn't show up in the guide except on those test receivers, no one else would know it is there...

 

Who knows, maybe that's what 110 is doing right now :)


Edited by slice1900, 19 November 2013 - 11:30 PM.

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#981 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 12:44 AM

MPEG2 & MPEG4 are compression schemes, not modulation schemes. 4K is a resolution, not a compression or modulation scheme.

 

They could broadcast 4K from any of their current satellites, and use either MPEG2 or MPEG4 compression (though doing so with MPEG2 would be pretty stupid) Eventually they'll want to broadcast 4K using HEVC, which is a more advanced compression scheme than MPEG4. However, 4K might start out using MPEG4, just like HD started out using MPEG2.

 

They may already be broadcasting 4K, testing new receivers that aren't available yet. If the channel doesn't show up in the guide except on those test receivers, no one else would know it is there...

 

Who knows, maybe that's what 110 is doing right now :)

really ? not a chance to hide it now ;) ... ask Gary Toma at his dedicated thread



#982 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 01:43 AM

really ? not a chance to hide it now ;) ... ask Gary Toma at his dedicated thread

 

 

Is the method he uses able to see private channels? The first tab on the spreadsheet shows the name for all CONUS channels, but none of them appear to be the sort of private corporate channels I was under the impression that Directv carried for some customers. Even if he caught such channels in the channel count on the last tab, and a channel thus couldn't "hide" on 110, it certainly could be elsewhere on 99/101/103/119. The only way you could possibly detect the presence of such a 4K test channel would be if you could see the bitrate for all channels, including private channels.

 

They could also put test 4K test channels somewhere else, like in the 500 MHz 101 Ka transponders being used for downlinks. Just because you and I don't have LNBs that can receive from that satellite, doesn't mean people doing testing don't...

 

Maybe it is a bit too early for 4K testing from the satellites just yet, but they'll have to do it at some point, and I doubt we'll see a "HBO4K" appear in the guide when that happens :)


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#983 OFFLINE   studechip

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:49 AM

MPEG2 & MPEG4 are compression schemes, not modulation schemes. 4K is a resolution, not a compression or modulation scheme.

 

They could broadcast 4K from any of their current satellites, and use either MPEG2 or MPEG4 compression (though doing so with MPEG2 would be pretty stupid) Eventually they'll want to broadcast 4K using HEVC, which is a more advanced compression scheme than MPEG4. However, 4K might start out using MPEG4, just like HD started out using MPEG2.

 

They may already be broadcasting 4K, testing new receivers that aren't available yet. If the channel doesn't show up in the guide except on those test receivers, no one else would know it is there...

 

Who knows, maybe that's what 110 is doing right now :)

Got it, thanks for the clarification.



#984 ONLINE   Curtis0620

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 11:13 AM

Are we still looking at a February 2014 launch?


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#985 ONLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 06:11 PM

We seem to be



#986 OFFLINE   cypherx

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 08:50 PM

Wow that's really just around the corner. These past few months have gone by quick for me. Looking forward to D14 and the bandwidth it will bring.


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#987 ONLINE   harsh

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:58 AM

Are we still looking at a February 2014 launch?

According to Salo's post of November 14th on the site that seems to be abreast of such things, the DIRECTV 14 launch date has rolled into Q2 2014.
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#988 ONLINE   harsh

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 09:00 AM

Seriously - DirecTV has not violated their license. If you have anything more that wild accusations please post. Otherwise it would be nice to get back to reality and discuss DirecTV 14. Thanks!

When the apparent "dead air" can be measured in double-digit months, is that in keeping with the public interest?
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#989 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 10:51 AM

When the apparent "dead air" can be measured in double-digit months, is that in keeping with the public interest?

Apparently this "dead air" for *direct* subscriber feeds anyhow, is still in keeping with the spirit of DIRECTV's public license for Ka band use at 101, otherwise the FCC would not have granted them permission for the Ka band payloads on D8 and D9S for back-hauling of LiL feeds as has already been explained.

 

Now you may still consider this usage of the license there as "dead air," but that doesn't mean the FCC has to consider it as such.


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#990 OFFLINE   JosephB

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 12:09 PM

MPEG2 & MPEG4 are compression schemes, not modulation schemes. 4K is a resolution, not a compression or modulation scheme.

 

They could broadcast 4K from any of their current satellites, and use either MPEG2 or MPEG4 compression (though doing so with MPEG2 would be pretty stupid) Eventually they'll want to broadcast 4K using HEVC, which is a more advanced compression scheme than MPEG4. However, 4K might start out using MPEG4, just like HD started out using MPEG2.

 

They may already be broadcasting 4K, testing new receivers that aren't available yet. If the channel doesn't show up in the guide except on those test receivers, no one else would know it is there...

 

Who knows, maybe that's what 110 is doing right now :)

 

What's the bandwidth of a Ku transponder on 101? I'm curious as to whether or not they actually could carry a 4K channel in MPEG-2 on a Ku transponder without it looking like a RealPlayer video 



#991 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 02:21 PM

27 MHz



#992 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 05:25 PM

When the apparent "dead air" can be measured in double-digit months, is that in keeping with the public interest?


That isn't the standard. You didn't do your homework. :)
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#993 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 06:13 PM

27 MHz

Actually 24 MHz; :)

 

The transponders used on G3C at 95W for the World Direct service are 27 MHz though.


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#994 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:35 PM

What's the bandwidth of a Ku transponder on 101? I'm curious as to whether or not they actually could carry a 4K channel in MPEG-2 on a Ku transponder without it looking like a RealPlayer video 

 

 

A Ku transponder certainly could carry 4K, but why would it do so in MPEG2? A transponder can carry any type of compression, but since there is absolutely no chance whatsoever any provider will ever deliver 4K using MPEG2 compression, the question is moot. Preferably they'd use HEVC, but if decoders for that aren't ready yet (or are too expensive or run too hot) Directv might initially deliver 4K using MPEG4, similar to how they initially delivered HD using MPEG2.

 

One thing I'm unsure of is whether there is any correlation between transponder type and modulation scheme used. I know there's no technical restriction per se, but I'm not sure if you can "upgrade" a satellite to use a newer modulation after it has been launched. So older satellites used for Ku like D4, D8 and D9S may not be able to use newer more efficient modulation schemes that D12 or D14/D15, when launched, might be able to use.

 

Does anyone have a list of different modulations Directv uses and what satellite(s) use them? Or do they use the same modulation everywhere? Could a satellite be software upgraded to use a modulation that didn't exist at the time it was launched?


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#995 OFFLINE   longrider

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 09:11 PM

I could be wrong but I thought the transponder did not care what the modulation scheme was, it just sent back down what it received.  The frequency is the only thing fixed for a given transponder


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#996 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 10:00 PM

I thought all modern satellites used regenerative transponders. Anyone know?


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#997 ONLINE   harsh

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 08:58 AM

IIRC, the operative phrase is "bent pipe".

http://en.wikipedia....communications)
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#998 ONLINE   harsh

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 09:03 AM

That isn't the standard. You didn't do your homework. :)

So this means that the passage of time isn't important or it doesn't specify that there must be a public signal.

DirecTV has not violated the terms of their license.

You've said that several times without offering supporting information.
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#999 OFFLINE   cypherx

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 12:20 PM

What modulation is uplinked is what is down linked. The only careful consideration is higher order modulation schemes may present earlier rain fade on Ka band.


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#1000 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 01:43 PM

 

 

... One thing I'm unsure of is whether there is any correlation between transponder type and modulation scheme used. I know there's no technical restriction per se, but I'm not sure if you can "upgrade" a satellite to use a newer modulation after it has been launched. So older satellites used for Ku like D4, D8 and D9S may not be able to use newer more efficient modulation schemes that D12 or D14/D15, when launched, might be able to use.

 

Does anyone have a list of different modulations Directv uses and what satellite(s) use them? Or do they use the same modulation everywhere? Could a satellite be software upgraded to use a modulation that didn't exist at the time it was launched?

AFAIK, DIRECTV ( and DISH as well) only use 4 or 8-PSK modulation.

 

While their proprietary DSS format for their MPEG-2/SD channels may allow for it, and the DVB-S2 format used by their MPEG-4/HD (and some SD) channels certainly allow for it. Neither DIRECTV (or DISH) ever use a modulation type greater than 8-PSK which has a constant amplitude with no modulation in the amplitude domain, but only in phase.

 

Therefore all their satellite feeds fully saturate the satellite transponders for maximum signal power output and smaller minimum acceptable C/N ratio for reception than modulation formats which vary in both amplitude and phase.   

 

They use 4-PSK for all channels carried on CONUS beam transponders on both Ku and Ka bands, except for the Spanish HD channels on 119 Ku tp. 24 which use 8-PSK to allow for more data throughput on the smaller (compared to the 36 MHz Ka ones) 24 MHz transponder there.

 

And 4-PSK for all SD local channels on spotbeams

 

They use 4 or 8-PSK for local channels on the Ka band spotbeams.

 

It is thought that 8-PSK is possible on the Ka band spots because their higher PFD offsets the loss in signal robustness by going to a higher modulation level especially on Ka band. However this does not explain then why DIRECTV does not use 8-PSK consistently on all Ka spotbeams.   


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