Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo

DIRECTV Satellite Discussion D-14


  • Please log in to reply
2744 replies to this topic

#1626 OFFLINE   harsh

harsh

    Beware the Attack Basset

  • Registered
  • 19,964 posts
  • LocationSalem, OR
Joined: Jun 14, 2003

Posted 02 September 2014 - 07:57 AM

Remember jumping services works both ways. If 10000 SD customers leave DirecTV for Dish or cable that pulls 10000 MPEG2 receivers out of the field.  Now 10000 SD customers leave Dish or cable for DirecTV and their installs get MPEG4 equipment.  While your SD customer base is unchanged you have just effectively swapped out 10000 receivers.

The likely flaw in this argument is that the customers who jump aren't all hoarding aged out SD equipment. If they are regular jumpers, they return equipment that is not much more than two years old.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


...Ads Help To Support This Site...

#1627 OFFLINE   harsh

harsh

    Beware the Attack Basset

  • Registered
  • 19,964 posts
  • LocationSalem, OR
Joined: Jun 14, 2003

Posted 02 September 2014 - 08:04 AM

Due to the current backlog at Arianespace, need for a suitable companion payload, and the naturally slow way things move in this complex business.

I think it is disingenuous to blame the delays on a backlog at Arianespace. The problem with DIRECTV 14 is that of finding a suitable companion that is realistically ready to go. In the interim, launches are happening more or less apace.

It is also important to remember that DIRECTV 14 wasn't truly complete until last month (according to its manufacturer).

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#1628 ONLINE   HoTat2

HoTat2

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,446 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles, CA.
Joined: Nov 16, 2005

Posted 02 September 2014 - 10:02 AM

I think it is disingenuous to blame the delays on a backlog at Arianespace. The problem with DIRECTV 14 is that of finding a suitable companion that is realistically ready to go. In the interim, launches are happening more or less apace.

 

Well ... if there is any disingenuousness blame it on DIRECTV. Because what I posted are the "reasons" (plural) "they" (not "me") list for the launch delays until 2015 of both D14 & 15 in their milestone extension FCC requests for the RB-1 & 2 payloads aboard each of them respectively.

 

 
... Unfortunately, although DIRECTV’s satellite
will be ready for delivery in September, no launch slot is available until 2015 due to a
combination of factors beyond DIRECTV’s control. These factors are discussed below.
First, although DIRECTV has maintained its place in the Arianespace launch
queue, that place has marched steadily later in time due to delays in earlier-scheduled
launches. Given the complexity of the satellite launch process, delays are not an
uncommon occurrence in the industry. Moreover, because of the nature of Arianespace’s
co-passenger launches, one satellite operator may be ready for launch but be delayed by

wholly unrelated problems experienced by another satellite operator. 

 

   
 

... It is also important to remember that DIRECTV 14 wasn't truly complete until last month (according to its manufacturer).

 

 

What difference does it make?

 

In spite of these delays both satellites are ready for delivery sometime this month as noted in their ME attached construction status letters which I posted sometime back. Yet their launch windows have already longed slipped to sometime next year.

 

So their construction delays are totally irrelevant at this point.    


DIRECTV sub. since Sep. of '95


#1629 OFFLINE   slice1900

slice1900

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 3,524 posts
  • LocationIowa
Joined: Feb 14, 2013

Posted 02 September 2014 - 10:47 AM

It isn't as though D14 is the only satellite being built at any one time by its manufacturer. As the launch is delayed, they might de-prioritize finishing its build in favor of building other satellites that maybe don't have delays or where they will face financial penalties for not getting it completed by the scheduled time.

 

We don't know what the construction contract looks like and if Directv would have penalties for not getting the satellite built in time, but if it was originally targeted for (just as an example) July 1, 2013, as delays from Arianespace pile up they can let that completion date slip, either because there are no penalties or because Directv chooses to waive them since getting it built earlier serves no purpose. In fact, they'd probably prefer that the construction slip along with the launch slips, otherwise they'll have to pay someone to store it since they can't keep it at the launch site for months in advance.


SL5, PI-6S, SA-6AL 3xSWM16, 21 H20-100, 1 H20-600, 7 H24-700/AM21


#1630 OFFLINE   Diana C

Diana C

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 2,028 posts
  • LocationNew Jersey
Joined: Mar 30, 2007

Posted 02 September 2014 - 03:53 PM

I think it is disingenuous to blame the delays on a backlog at Arianespace. The problem with DIRECTV 14 is that of finding a suitable companion that is realistically ready to go. In the interim, launches are happening more or less apace.

It is also important to remember that DIRECTV 14 wasn't truly complete until last month (according to its manufacturer).

 

DirecTV-14's scheduled launch date has changed so many times I don't think any one cause could be assigned.  That said, Arianespace had set a goal of 12 launches this year.  Back in April or May they were still saying that they were on track to meet that goal.  As of today, however, they have only managed 7 launches.  It is HIGHLY unlikely that they will do 5 more before the end of the year, so things HAVE slipped on Ariane's part.  I would also assume that SSL, Astrium, DirecTV and Arianespace are jointly privy to far more detailed information than are we.  DirecTV-14 may well have been "finished" only last month because it was known that it wouldn't fly until late 2014 at the earliest, so there was little point in rushing the missing part.


Dish Network Customer from 9/1998-11/2001
DirecTV Customer 10/2001 - 7/2014

FiOS TV/TiVo Customer since 6/2014
Moderator, DBSDish.com 1999-2000
Co-Founder and Administrator, DBSForums.com 2000-2006

Current setup:
DirecTV: HR34-700 (1TB) / HR24-100 (1TB) / HR24-500 (1TB) / HR21-700 (320GB) / HR21-100 (1TB) / 2 H25s / C41-500 / SWiM16 / Nomad / CCK

FiOS: 2 Tivo Roamio Pros (6 TB total) / 5 Tivo Minis attached via MOCA


#1631 OFFLINE   LameLefty

LameLefty

    I used to be a rocket scientist

  • Registered
  • 12,176 posts
  • LocationMiddle Tennessee
Joined: Sep 28, 2006

Posted 02 September 2014 - 06:22 PM

I think it is disingenuous to blame the delays on a backlog at Arianespace. The problem with DIRECTV 14 is that of finding a suitable companion that is realistically ready to go.

 

So you believe it's the customer's responsibility to find a companion payload to share the launch vehicle? I think it's a good thing that you're not running a launch services provider.


"Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!"
Directv since 1997
Will Work for Beer


#1632 OFFLINE   harsh

harsh

    Beware the Attack Basset

  • Registered
  • 19,964 posts
  • LocationSalem, OR
Joined: Jun 14, 2003

Posted 02 September 2014 - 09:51 PM

So you believe it's the customer's responsibility to find a companion payload to share the launch vehicle?

In view of the fact that Arianespace doesn't manufacture satellites, what would you have them do?

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#1633 ONLINE   HoTat2

HoTat2

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,446 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles, CA.
Joined: Nov 16, 2005

Posted 02 September 2014 - 10:50 PM

In view of the fact that Arianespace doesn't manufacture satellites, what would you have them do?

I'd say frankly that is AS' problem.

 

They are the ones who choose this business model of the duel payload requirement for each launch. So its up to them to make it work efficiently.

 

From the RB-1 & 2 ME requests ...

 

[t]he Ariane 5’s business model is based on launching two commercial

telecommunications satellites at a time, which usually means pairing one
large satellite with one that is much smaller. The difficulty of finding two
satellites ready for launch at the same time with a combined weight that
fits into the Ariane 5 has long been one of the challenges for
Arianespace

 

 
As you can see the "challenges" are for "AS" to work out. not the satellite manufacturer. 

DIRECTV sub. since Sep. of '95


#1634 OFFLINE   harsh

harsh

    Beware the Attack Basset

  • Registered
  • 19,964 posts
  • LocationSalem, OR
Joined: Jun 14, 2003

Posted 03 September 2014 - 08:13 AM

They are the ones who choose this business model of the duel payload requirement for each launch. So its up to them to make it work efficiently.

DIRECTV knew what they were getting into by agreeing to share a vehicle and I'm sure it was financially very appealing. They also knew that the Proton/Briz-M wasn't up to the task with its 6 metric ton GTO payload capability. The recent ILS failure rate was icing on the cupcake.

Sea Launch, with all of their complications was also not up to the task with a 6.066 metric ton launch capacity.

Looking at the table of options on Wikipedia, DIRECTV has set themselves up for something that has five solo options:

1. Ariane 5 (several configurations)
2. Atlas V (421 or 531)
3. Delta IV-M+(5,4)
4. SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1
5. Mitsubishi H-IIB

Edited by harsh, 03 September 2014 - 08:15 AM.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#1635 OFFLINE   Drew2k

Drew2k

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 14,201 posts
Joined: Aug 16, 2006

Posted 03 September 2014 - 09:17 AM

DIRECTV has set themselves up for something that has five solo options:1. Ariane 5 (several configurations)2. Atlas V (421 or 531)3. Delta IV-M+(5,4)4. SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.15. Mitsubishi H-IIB

“something“?

#1636 ONLINE   HoTat2

HoTat2

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,446 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles, CA.
Joined: Nov 16, 2005

Posted 03 September 2014 - 11:25 AM

DIRECTV knew what they were getting into by agreeing to share a vehicle and I'm sure it was financially very appealing. They also knew that the Proton/Briz-M wasn't up to the task with its 6 metric ton GTO payload capability. The recent ILS failure rate was icing on the cupcake.

Sea Launch, with all of their complications was also not up to the task with a 6.066 metric ton launch capacity.

Looking at the table of options on Wikipedia, DIRECTV has set themselves up for something that has five solo options:

1. Ariane 5 (several configurations)
2. Atlas V (421 or 531)
3. Delta IV-M+(5,4)
4. SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1
5. Mitsubishi H-IIB

But I never read anywhere that DIRECTV was complaining about the launch delays at Arianespace.

 

In fact they complemented AS quite highly in their ME requests.

 

But nevertheless, AS is indeed running behind schedule through no fault of DIRECTV, resulting in a continued slippage in D14 & 15's launch windows.  And the manufacturing delays for the birds at SS/L and SAS Astrium have nothing to do with it.  


DIRECTV sub. since Sep. of '95


#1637 OFFLINE   Diana C

Diana C

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 2,028 posts
  • LocationNew Jersey
Joined: Mar 30, 2007

Posted 04 September 2014 - 02:50 AM

In view of the fact that Arianespace doesn't manufacture satellites, what would you have them do?


Oh, something crazy....like honor the contract they signed.

DirecTV contracted with Arianespace to launch a satellite of a specific weight, under specific conditions. It is not DirecTV's responsibility to "find" an appropriate launch companion, it is the responsibility of the company that said they could do it, and that's Arianespace.

At some point, if no smaller spacecrafts can be found, AS may find itself in the uncomfortable position of doing launches with dummy companion payloads.
  • HoTat2 likes this

Dish Network Customer from 9/1998-11/2001
DirecTV Customer 10/2001 - 7/2014

FiOS TV/TiVo Customer since 6/2014
Moderator, DBSDish.com 1999-2000
Co-Founder and Administrator, DBSForums.com 2000-2006

Current setup:
DirecTV: HR34-700 (1TB) / HR24-100 (1TB) / HR24-500 (1TB) / HR21-700 (320GB) / HR21-100 (1TB) / 2 H25s / C41-500 / SWiM16 / Nomad / CCK

FiOS: 2 Tivo Roamio Pros (6 TB total) / 5 Tivo Minis attached via MOCA


#1638 OFFLINE   HarleyD

HarleyD

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 1,303 posts
Joined: Aug 31, 2006

Posted 04 September 2014 - 05:49 AM

But I never read anywhere that DIRECTV was complaining about the launch delays at Arianespace.

 

In fact they complemented AS quite highly in their ME requests.

 

But nevertheless, AS is indeed running behind schedule through no fault of DIRECTV, resulting in a continued slippage in D14 & 15's launch windows.  And the manufacturing delays for the birds at SS/L and SAS Astrium have nothing to do with it.  

 

 

Which indirectly reinforces the assumption/expectation by many that these new birds are not going to yield an immediate influx of additional HD programming...or programming of any sort.

 

If there were agreements and partners in the can waiting for these new additions to light up then there would be more urgency surrounding this.  The willingness to proceed at a deliberate pace by all parties would seem to indicate that these launches are steps toward something further out...much to the consternation of the casual observer who only wants to see them go up and become active.


"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible."
--Frank Zappa

#1639 OFFLINE   harsh

harsh

    Beware the Attack Basset

  • Registered
  • 19,964 posts
  • LocationSalem, OR
Joined: Jun 14, 2003

Posted 04 September 2014 - 08:12 AM

Oh, something crazy....like honor the contract they signed.

Do you suppose things could have been different if DIRECTV 14 had been ready earlier? There have been quite a few small payloads go up since the beginning of the year.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#1640 OFFLINE   harsh

harsh

    Beware the Attack Basset

  • Registered
  • 19,964 posts
  • LocationSalem, OR
Joined: Jun 14, 2003

Posted 04 September 2014 - 08:16 AM

But I never read anywhere that DIRECTV was complaining about the launch delays at Arianespace.

You didn't read your post 1628?

If they aren't complaining about it, they are certainly trying to leverage it.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#1641 OFFLINE   harsh

harsh

    Beware the Attack Basset

  • Registered
  • 19,964 posts
  • LocationSalem, OR
Joined: Jun 14, 2003

Posted 04 September 2014 - 08:21 AM

“something“?

A new class of super-heavy communications satellites that are heavier than 6 metric tons when prepared for launch.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#1642 OFFLINE   harsh

harsh

    Beware the Attack Basset

  • Registered
  • 19,964 posts
  • LocationSalem, OR
Joined: Jun 14, 2003

Posted 04 September 2014 - 08:23 AM

It isn't as though D14 is the only satellite being built at any one time by its manufacturer. As the launch is delayed, they might de-prioritize finishing its build in favor of building other satellites that maybe don't have delays or where they will face financial penalties for not getting it completed by the scheduled time.

Are you suggesting that Arianespace involve itself in prioritizing the manufacturing capacity?

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#1643 OFFLINE   HarleyD

HarleyD

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 1,303 posts
Joined: Aug 31, 2006

Posted 04 September 2014 - 09:15 AM

Are you suggesting that Arianespace involve itself in prioritizing the manufacturing capacity?

 

How you pulled that out his statement is...well, astounding.

 

If the need-by date for the finished product slips, the manufacturer can and often will re-allocate their finite internal resources in accordance with changes to delivery deadlines.  If SSL sees that they no longer have to have D14 buttoned up and ready to go by the original date then they are freed up to refocus on other deliverables whose dates have not slipped.

 

Arianespace has no role in SSL's decisions other than the impact that AS's launch delays have the drop dead date for the finished bird.  SSL didn't have to do anything with their manufacturing schedule.   That they choose to is their decision alone.


"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible."
--Frank Zappa

#1644 OFFLINE   HarleyD

HarleyD

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 1,303 posts
Joined: Aug 31, 2006

Posted 04 September 2014 - 09:40 AM

Do you suppose things could have been different if DIRECTV 14 had been ready earlier? There have been quite a few small payloads go up since the beginning of the year.

 

Possibly different in a bad way since one of the documents in support of the ME request, a letter from SSL on the state of the manufacture states in part...

 

"the desire to do additional work on the satellite to eliminate a situation experienced by another satellite manufactured by SSL."

 

This was not the sole factor in delay.  Subcontractor selection, manufacturing processes and technical challenges are also cited but are not explicitly said to be exclusive of the additional work. 

 

It goes on to state that the ready-to-ship-date supports the current Ariane 5 schedule based on our current knowledge of the Arianespace manifest.

 

There is nothing stated or insinuated by anyone at any point that AS would have gotten this thing up already...or sooner than the current TBD... if it had only been completed sooner.


"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible."
--Frank Zappa

#1645 OFFLINE   slice1900

slice1900

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 3,524 posts
  • LocationIowa
Joined: Feb 14, 2013

Posted 04 September 2014 - 10:49 AM

If there were agreements and partners in the can waiting for these new additions to light up then there would be more urgency surrounding this.  The willingness to proceed at a deliberate pace by all parties would seem to indicate that these launches are steps toward something further out...much to the consternation of the casual observer who only wants to see them go up and become active.

 

Given that Directv has little or no control over when D14 is launched, they'd be unlikely to provide hard dates in any agreements regarding any addition of HD channels they don't plan to include until it is launched. They'd use some hand waving language like "when additional capacity is made available by future satellite launches".

 

I'm not sure why you're so skeptical that D14 will add additional capacity. It has a full set of CONUS transponders for Ka hi, and is going to 99*. Currently Directv has no Ka hi capability from 99*, but all HD dishes can receive it and receivers will do so with a software update, just like how Ka hi was added to 103 when D12 launched. This will add about a third more capacity for CONUS HD channels above what they have today. Whether all of that will actually be used for HD, or a portion will be used for MPEG4 SD mirrors of other content such as that on 95 and 119 is unknown.

 

The "steps towards something further out" is the RDBS capacity.


SL5, PI-6S, SA-6AL 3xSWM16, 21 H20-100, 1 H20-600, 7 H24-700/AM21


#1646 OFFLINE   HarleyD

HarleyD

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 1,303 posts
Joined: Aug 31, 2006

Posted 04 September 2014 - 11:23 AM

It will add capacity.  I just don't expect it to add programming right away.

 

I also believe that if they had a signed carriage agreement in hand for any new HD, they would make room for it.  I don't believe their existing bandwidth is fully tapped out.  It's getting thin, but it isn't exhausted.

 

And since carriage agreements have a hard end date I would be very surprised if they entered into one with the knowledge that could languish for months before it lit up.

 

I'm happy with what they're doing.  I expect more channels. Both new HD and HD versions of what is now only SD and I expect that D14 and D15 are going to facilitate that.

 

I just don't think there is anything standing by in the "as soon as D14 is in service" queue.


Edited by HarleyD, 04 September 2014 - 11:31 AM.

"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible."
--Frank Zappa

#1647 ONLINE   HoTat2

HoTat2

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,446 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles, CA.
Joined: Nov 16, 2005

Posted 04 September 2014 - 12:42 PM

You didn't read your post 1628?

If they aren't complaining about it, they are certainly trying to leverage it.

Well that may be your perception of it;

 

But I see nothing in what DIRECTV states in those ME/wavier requests that necessarily suggest any such complaining about AS or even a hint of it.

 

They're merely explaining to the FCC how among others, the backlog at AS is one of the reasons they are unable to meet the final milestone requirement for RB-1 & 2. And how it is through no fault of their own is all.

 

Quite apparent really ...    


DIRECTV sub. since Sep. of '95


#1648 OFFLINE   Diana C

Diana C

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 2,028 posts
  • LocationNew Jersey
Joined: Mar 30, 2007

Posted 05 September 2014 - 04:55 PM

Do you suppose things could have been different if DIRECTV 14 had been ready earlier? There have been quite a few small payloads go up since the beginning of the year.

And they all already had partners, didn't they?

Honestly, I just don't get why you insist on spinning EVERY SINGLE discussion point into a criticism of DirecTV. There are certainly things about DirecTV that justify complaints (though you'd have to be a subscriber to know most of them) just as there are about Dish, Verizon, Comcast, Charter, Cox, AT&T and any other corporation doing business anywhere. There is no need to create more, yet you seem to delight in doing so.

You are obviously free to post whatever you like, and I'm not even singling you out, but it is just a puzzle to me what you and some other posters get out of the experience. :shrug:
  • HoTat2, veryoldschool and scoop8 like this

Dish Network Customer from 9/1998-11/2001
DirecTV Customer 10/2001 - 7/2014

FiOS TV/TiVo Customer since 6/2014
Moderator, DBSDish.com 1999-2000
Co-Founder and Administrator, DBSForums.com 2000-2006

Current setup:
DirecTV: HR34-700 (1TB) / HR24-100 (1TB) / HR24-500 (1TB) / HR21-700 (320GB) / HR21-100 (1TB) / 2 H25s / C41-500 / SWiM16 / Nomad / CCK

FiOS: 2 Tivo Roamio Pros (6 TB total) / 5 Tivo Minis attached via MOCA


#1649 OFFLINE   LameLefty

LameLefty

    I used to be a rocket scientist

  • Registered
  • 12,176 posts
  • LocationMiddle Tennessee
Joined: Sep 28, 2006

Posted 05 September 2014 - 06:25 PM

Attention-seeking behavior is quite common among a certain type of person ...

 

That said, there's a reason why (as I pointed out several days ago, ahem) that Arianespace is pursuing development of the Ariane 6 for solitary launches. ;)

 

Furthermore, I can GUARANTEE YOU that the contracts between any launch provider and their customers provide for many, many different contingencies and who bears the financial risk for each and every one of them.


"Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!"
Directv since 1997
Will Work for Beer


#1650 OFFLINE   harsh

harsh

    Beware the Attack Basset

  • Registered
  • 19,964 posts
  • LocationSalem, OR
Joined: Jun 14, 2003

Posted 06 September 2014 - 08:27 AM

Honestly, I just don't get why you insist on spinning EVERY SINGLE discussion point into a criticism of DirecTV.

I like to think of them as possible answers and insight into why the launches haven't happened and how to identify clues such that we may collectively develop a sense of when they might.

A thread like this isn't about the joy-joy or fortifying the party line -- it is about gaining insight into a rather complex process.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK





Protected By... spam firewall...And...