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DIRECTV Satellite Discussion D-14


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2122 replies to this topic

#141 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 08:07 PM

Does DirecTv own the KA slow at 101?


Yes. DIRECTV uses it for backhauling.

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#142 OFFLINE   Davenlr

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 08:09 PM

Yes. DIRECTV uses it for backhauling.

Cheers,
Tom


Ok, thanks Tom. Knew about the backhauls, but thought it was a separate license for the trip back on KA.

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#143 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 08:40 AM

From the FCC website here: http://transition.fc...a/faq.html#FAQ6

The portion of the article you quote speaks to FSS that is both very low power and below DBS band in frequency.

The references to dishes smaller than 9m and 5m suggests they're not talking about multi-focal offset "pizza dishes".

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#144 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 09:00 AM

The portion of the article you quote speaks to FSS that is both very low power and below DBS band in frequency.

The references to dishes smaller than 9m and 5m suggests they're not talking about multi-focal offset "pizza dishes".

Since it dates back to 1983, I'd say it has everything to do with the spacing of the SATs and the uplinking to them, leaving the downlink "issues" to the providers to sort out, with the parabolic shape of the reflector.
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#145 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 09:22 AM

Since it dates back to 1983, I'd say it has everything to do with the spacing of the SATs and the uplinking to them, leaving the downlink "issues" to the providers to sort out, with the parabolic shape of the reflector.

I thought the discussion was whether or not any DBS provider could use 97W for additional Ka broadcast capacity as opposed to uplinks or backhauls.

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#146 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 09:29 AM

I thought the discussion was whether or not any DBS provider could use 97W for additional Ka broadcast capacity as opposed to uplinks or backhauls.

I'd say enough posts here have shown the 2º spacing has proven to work, so 97W wouldn't be an issue, "other than" if our [not yours] current dish would need to be reshaped.
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#147 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 10:37 AM

Can Ka slots be spaced only 2 degrees apart?


How ? What reasons you have in mind what would ALLOW positioning Ka sats close as C-band sats ? Not following Ku sats rules ?


Directv is already using Ka band 2º apart - there are Ka backhauls at 101º already.

See page 12 and Appendix A of the document Sixto provided for discussion of interference analysis.


The higher frequency range of Ka, and the power levels of modern satellites, allow the smaller dishes we have on our roofs to work more like the 6 foot, multiple feed horn dishes used at earth stations for C-band. If you can make the LNBF only really see a 2 degree patch of sky, it doesn't really matter if there is another satellite 2 degrees away...the 97 LNBF won't see the 99 sats and viceversa.

#148 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 11:08 AM

I'd say enough posts here have shown the 2º spacing has proven to work, so 97W wouldn't be an issue, "other than" if our [not yours] current dish would need to be reshaped.


I would say so as well, were it not for Tom's earlier statement about the Ka-band payloads at 101 actually being spot-beamed to eliminate potential interference with 99 and 103.

If true, then we really have no working examples today of two Ka-band CONUS beam birds with 2 degree separation. Not at all saying it won't work of course, but just pointing that it wouldn't be correct to say DIRECTV is already using 2 degree adjacent Ka-band slots in the way DIRECTV-97W and the satellites at 99W are intended for.

This is all assuming Tom is correct about the Ka-band back-hauls at 101 being spot-beamed of course. :)

#149 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 11:19 AM

I would say so as well, were it not for Tom's earlier statement about the Ka-band payloads at 101 actually being spot-beamed to eliminate potential interference with 99 and 103.

If true, then we really have no working examples today of two Ka-band CONUS beam birds with 2 degree separation. Not at all saying it won't work of course, but just pointing that it wouldn't be correct to say DIRECTV is already using 2 degree adjacent Ka-band slots in the way DIRECTV-97W and the satellites at 99W are intended for.

This is all assuming Tom is correct about the Ka-band back-hauls at 101 being spot-beamed of course. :)

What all of this really comes down to is the focus of both the ground uplink dish and the SAT receiving dish. Being the old fart that I am, I remember when the FCC ruling came out after testing and an engineer's discussion of this ruling and its "impact".
This really isn't much different that filtering of a tuner to keep out adjacent channels, but instead is the focusing of the dish signal, on the uplink path.
Think of all the CONUS & spot beams that our dishes "filter out" so they can receive the SAT that we want.

For those having a hard time with this, think of an adjustable flashlight that you can focus the beam with. The dish on the uplink works the same way.

Edited by veryoldschool, 13 August 2011 - 11:46 AM.

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#150 OFFLINE   Davenlr

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 11:21 AM

I would say so as well, were it not for Tom's earlier statement about the Ka-band payloads at 101 actually being spot-beamed to eliminate potential interference with 99 and 103.

If true, then we really have no working examples today of two Ka-band CONUS beam birds with 2 degree separation.


2 degree spacing works on C band where the -3 db point on a standard 10' dish is much wider than a KU dish, and KA is even narrower (note the fine tuning adjusters needed for KA band?)

Turn your dish one degree, and see if you have any signal at all. Im sure the interference they are referring to, is interference from the ground station to neighbor satellites, not interference from the satellite to the ground stations.

With sufficiently large dishes at the uplink site, I have no worries they can avoid interference with a satellite 2 degrees away.

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#151 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 11:28 AM

With sufficiently large dishes at the uplink site, I have no worries they can avoid interference with a satellite 2 degrees away.

Think DirecTV has that covered:
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#152 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 12:19 PM

2 degree spacing works on C band where the -3 db point on a standard 10' dish is much wider than a KU dish, and KA is even narrower (note the fine tuning adjusters needed for KA band?).

C-band isn't scattered/diffused by atmosphere like the higher frequencies may be.

IIRC, the ITU believes that 3 degree spacing is necessary in the Ka band broadcast.

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#153 OFFLINE   LameLefty

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 12:22 PM

Again, this is SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSED on p. 12 and Appendix A of the recently-filed Directv 97W Narrative document referenced by Sixto a couple of days ago, harsh and P Smith's vaguely-worded FUD notwithstanding. :rolleyes:

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#154 OFFLINE   Davenlr

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 12:29 PM

C-band isn't scattered/diffused by atmosphere like the higher frequencies may be.


All that would do is attenuate the signal, its not going to "move it" from 97 to 99 on the way down.

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#155 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 12:33 PM

The higher frequency range of Ka, and the power levels of modern satellites, allow the smaller dishes we have on our roofs to work more like the 6 foot, multiple feed horn dishes used at earth stations for C-band. If you can make the LNBF only really see a 2 degree patch of sky, it doesn't really matter if there is another satellite 2 degrees away...the 97 LNBF won't see the 99 sats and viceversa.

How do you reconcile "work like" and Ka rain fade?

Does anyone use a 6' dish for C-band?

The question remains: can a Ka satellite at 97W deliver a CONUS signal to DIRECTV subscribers that will work with a OTARD qualifying dish?

Would DISH Network have been able to use the slot for similar purposes?

While there are many posts in this thread, few, if any have addressed this important question with definitive answers based on RF theory or practice. Because DIRECTV subscribers are back to singing the the virtues of quality over quantity again, this would seem to be an important distinction.

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#156 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 12:44 PM

How do you reconcile "work like" and Ka rain fade?

Does anyone use a 6' dish for C-band?

The question remains: can a Ka satellite at 97W deliver a CONUS signal to DIRECTV subscribers that will work with a OTARD qualifying dish?

Would DISH Network have been able to use the slot for similar purposes?

While there are many posts in this thread, few, if any have addressed this important question with definitive answers based on RF theory or practice. Because DIRECTV subscribers are back to singing the the virtues of quality over quantity again, this would seem to be an important distinction.

:nono: like you would even know any of these if they beat you over the head to get your attention. :nono:
"The only question" is really if our current reflectors will work for Ka from 97W, which may be the difference between the old AT-9 and the AU-9.
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#157 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 12:45 PM

More important, the projected DTV Ka sat @97W is offtopic and who knows if would be build:

Given the current absence of a construction contract for DIRECTV 97W, it is difficult to assess what satellites will actually be operating at the nominal 97° W.L. position at the time that the satellite is to be launched. As such, DIRECTV will certainly revisit this issue once a satellite construction contract is in place.

P. 17 of that initial doc.

Edited by P Smith, 13 August 2011 - 12:58 PM.


#158 OFFLINE   Davenlr

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 12:53 PM

Does anyone use a 6' dish for C-band?


Yes, I do. No issues with it at all, except low power from the satellite occasionally. I never have issues with other satellites next door. My actuator moves from one to the other, and the first disappears before the second appears.

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#159 OFFLINE   LameLefty

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 01:51 PM

More important, the projected DTV Ka sat @97W is offtopic and who knows if would be build:


No it is NOT off-topic. The topic is Directv satellite discussion. Parenthetically, it includes what we know about D14 because D14 was specifically mentioned in a recent investor presentation.

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#160 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 02:26 PM

Just keep the sidetrack for new 97W sat - what could be user friendly name of it ? D-15 ?




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