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DirecTV Satellite Discussion (D14 up next)


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#721 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 04:29 PM

We've delivered 6 subs in a year and Newport News has built an aircraft carrier is same time it'll take to build DIRECTV 14...just sayin' :grin:


If you make a mistake they can bring it back into the shop. It is a little harder to get a satellite back it a problem is found after it is launched. The owners just have to live with the error and look to the next satellite.
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#722 OFFLINE   bobnielsen

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 05:04 PM

Absent an OTARD compliant antenna, what good will it be? Even wealthy subscribers are limited to the protections provided by OTARD.

I don't know what percentage of Directv customers are constrained by OTARD (I'm certainly not), but also I haven't seen anything that suggests a larger dish would be required.  It should not be too hard to construct a feedhorn with sufficient bandwidth to cover both KA-hi and BSS bands and adding a diplexer to the feed assembly to separate the bands would seem to be quite doable (FWIW, I do have experience in the technology involved).



#723 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 05:18 AM

I don't know what percentage of Directv customers are constrained by OTARD (I'm certainly not), but also I haven't seen anything that suggests a larger dish would be required.

 

Correct;

 

If the current dish dimensions can acceptably receive both the Ka (18.3-20.2 GHz) and Ku (12.2 to 12.7 GHz) bands, then there is no reason the RDBS band roughly in the center at 17.3-17.7 GHz can't be acceptably received as well.

 

... It should not be too hard to construct a feedhorn with sufficient bandwidth to cover both KA-hi and BSS bands ,,,

 

Yes, as we're only talking about 1 additional GHz from 17.3-20.2 GHz instead of present 18.3-20.2 GHz. How hard can that be to engineer?

 

Assuming of course that the current feedhorn dimensions are not already sufficient.  

... and adding a diplexer to the feed assembly to separate the bands would seem to be quite doable (FWIW, I do have experience in the technology involved).

 

Again, much agreed;

 

Then once separated say a simple scheme to convert the RDBS band down to some point above 2150 MHz on the 99/101 trunk lines 1 and 2 for RB-1 and the 103/110/119; 103/119 lines 3 and 4 for the future RB-2 seems most doable.


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#724 OFFLINE   SPACEMAKER

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 10:40 AM

TL,DR

Is there a launch schedule?



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#725 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 01:40 PM

TL,DR

Is there a launch schedule?

Not much released beyond the official FCC filings ...

 

http://www.dbstalk.c...next/?p=3147380

 

Addendum: Well ... here's a brief mention of D14's launch expectancy from the Arianespace Launch Schedule for 2014 on the nasaspaceflight.com site harsh referenced earlier;

 

"early - DirecTV 14 - Ariane 5 ECA - Kourou ELA-3"

 

 Which I assume means a launch "early" in 2014, aboard an Ariane 5 ECA (French lettering for "Cryotechnic Main Stage") rocket. From "Kourou," in French Guiana at ELA-3 (French lettering for Ariane Launch Area 3).   


Edited by HoTat2, 21 June 2013 - 02:04 PM.

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#726 OFFLINE   LameLefty

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 05:01 PM

I don't really understand the time line. How can it take 4-ish years to construct a satellite? It’s a modular platform they’ve been building for over 25 years.

We construct and deliver two Virginia Class Submarines in that amount of time. I bet the basic platform is constructed ahead of time and is waiting for a final decision on the broadcasting equipment. There’s got to be a lot of time spent waiting, otherwise how could it take 4 to build?

Mike

 

Re the timeline - it doesn't take 4 years to assemble a satellite presuming you have all the parts in hand, on the cleanroom floor, at the time you start building, and presuming you take the absolute minimum time to verify and test and certify each production step along the way. However none of those presumptions is accurate. I would bet a good deal of money that "manufacturing start date" is a milestone that matters about as much as "laying the keel" on a battleship (e.g., "not very much.") Weld the first two members of the bus spaceframe and you've "started manufacturing."  

 

As for comparison with your subs, I'm pretty sure your employer has a much bigger budget to work with, along with the attendant logistical supply chain infrastructure, than does any satellite manufacturer these days (LMSC may have had comparable resources to work with back in the day during the heyday of the GAMBIT, HEXAGON, and Keyhole programs).  Furthermore, your boats get sea trials and periodic refits and port time - once a comsat goes up, that's it. It's gotta work right, the first time and pretty much every time, for 15 years, without servicing, physical upgrades, repairs, refits or replenishment of consumables, 22,300 miles from "port."


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#727 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 11:40 AM

I have not seen anything that would suggest a larger reflector would be needed. Have you? If you haven't then you're just fueling FUD.

If they can't come up with an LNB that will do both Ku and RDBS simultaneously, it seems obvious that two separate LNBs would be required. DIRECTV has patented a setup for Ka and Ku but it depends entirely on the band separation of the signals that won't be available with DIRECTV 14.

Do you have any theories on a solution?

The radio wave physics governing this haven't changed recently.

Edited by harsh, 23 June 2013 - 11:42 AM.

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#728 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 12:08 PM

If they can't come up with an LNB that will do both Ku and RDBS simultaneously, it seems obvious that two separate LNBs would be required. ...

 

Who says they can't come up with one?

 

Just because they haven't revealed it to us publicly yet proves that they can't come up with one?

 

... DIRECTV has patented a setup for Ka and Ku but it depends entirely on the band separation of the signals that won't be available with DIRECTV 14.

Do you have any theories on a solution?

The radio wave physics governing this haven't changed recently.

 

 

What's wrong with my post #723 as well as bobnielson's comments in post #722 as very feasible solutions for a single Ka/Ku/RDBS LNB? 


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#729 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 12:53 PM

If they can't come up with an LNB that will do both Ku and RDBS simultaneously, it seems obvious that two separate LNBs would be required. DIRECTV has patented a setup for Ka and Ku but it depends entirely on the band separation of the signals that won't be available with DIRECTV 14.


Wow ... if only someone would come up with a design where two LNBs could share the same feedhorn. That would be amazing. Imagine what it would have been like to have C and Ku band reception on a BUD using the same feedhorn 25 years ago. Imaging what it would be like to have two band reception in the same LNB assembly on a DISH "Plus" dish (used to receive 119 and 118.7 on the same OTARD compliant antenna). Or the current Ka / Ku DirecTV LNBs on OTARD compliant antennas? Combining LNBs is standard practice in 2013.

Sorry, but I do not share your fear uncertainty and doubt. Especially when it comes to comments such as you made about a dish receiving RDBS not being OTARD compliant. It is time to back your claim with facts - not speculation.

What about RDBS and needing a different LNB would make the dish not be a "OTARD compliant antenna"?

Hint: A larger LNB does not stop an antenna from being OTARD compliant.
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#730 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 02:31 PM

James, I have the combo C and Ku Chapparel LNBF :) it's has common feedhorn ;)



#731 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 03:36 PM

And like I said, you're only talking about .6-1 GHz away from the lower edge of the Ka-lo band.

 

For that matter, the current Ka band feedhorn dimensions on the Slimlines are likely sufficient to receive the RDBS band.. 


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#732 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:31 AM

James, I have the combo C and Ku Chapparel LNBF :) it's has common feedhorn ;)

And the difference in wavelength between C and Ku is?

The good book says C-band is about three times the wavelength of Ku. The wavelength for Ku is about 23.6mm versus something short of 75mm for C-band. Now comparing Ku at 23.6mm and RDBS at 17.4mm, those aren't nearly as diverse.

Multiple frequency designs typically depend on a decisive difference in wavelength. Those antennae are getting pretty near in size.

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#733 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:20 AM

And the difference in wavelength between C and Ku is?

The good book says C-band is about three times the wavelength of Ku. The wavelength for Ku is about 23.6mm versus something short of 75mm for C-band. Now comparing Ku at 23.6mm and RDBS at 17.4mm, those aren't nearly as diverse.

Multiple frequency designs typically depend on a decisive difference in wavelength. Those antennae are getting pretty near in size.

Well harsh

 

As an example in Latin America DIRECTV is presently deploying a new dual band LNB to their subscribers that can receive a new 10.95-11.2 GHz band which is only 250 MHz lower than their usual 11.450-12.2 GHz one. And the two bands are apparently separated and directed in their received gigahertz range to two different receiver circuits. One with a 10.5 GHz L.O. and the other with a 13.1 GHz L.O.

 

So with the RDBS band at 600-1000 MHz below the Ka-lo band, it should be well within the state of the art to design such frequency separation circuits for the somewhat higher 17/18 GHz frequency range. .      


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#734 OFFLINE   LameLefty

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 12:25 PM

Here is a good summary of the entirety of the last few pages (specifically the "contributions" of one person in particular who routinely dogs the Directv threads):

 

"A little information is a dangerous thing."

 

Fortunately, real spacecraft and RF engineers generally know what they're doing these days. A few minutes with Google and Wikipedia doesn't make up for the fundamental lack of education. Fortunately, there are some folks who DO know this stuff in very great detail who are willing to keep the thread informative and factual.


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#735 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 04:27 PM

Multiple frequency designs typically depend on a decisive difference in wavelength.
near in size.

DISH 118.7 and 119 are adjacent Ku bands. Same LNBF package.

118.0W TP1 11.71475 R - 118.0W TP32 12.18525 L
119.0W TP1 12.22400 R - 119.0W TP21 12.51560 R

Typically those in the industry can figure these things out. RDBS isn't that far away.
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#736 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 02:58 PM

A couple of random comments:

 

On the timeline question...the majority of the delay is waiting for the launch vehicle...it makes little sense to build and then store the satellite.  So construction is timed so that testing is complete when they are ready to ship to the launch pad for vehicle integration.

 

On RDBS, why assume that the plan is Ka, RDBS and Ku?  Why not substitute RDBS for legacy Ku?  You could eliminate all the SD duplicates on 101, leaving room for some additional HD.  That way, Ku becomes the legacy system for SD viewers, and Ka/RDBS is the HD viewer only platform.  This would also only require a LNB swap, which could be done at any pace they desire.


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#737 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:19 PM

 

 

... On RDBS, why assume that the plan is Ka, RDBS and Ku?  Why not substitute RDBS for legacy Ku?  You could eliminate all the SD duplicates on 101, leaving room for some additional HD.  That way, Ku becomes the legacy system for SD viewers, and Ka/RDBS is the HD viewer only platform.  This would also only require a LNB swap, which could be done at any pace they desire.

Could you rephrase this?

 

I don't understand the suggestion here ... 

 

EDIT: Never mind, After meditating on this, I understand now. An interesting idea;

 

Develop a duel 99/103 Ka/RDBS LNB and only mirror SD channels from 101 which have no HD versions on Ka over to the RDBS band on satellites at 99 or 103 to create a predominately "HD viewer" service.

 

You would need to supply an EPG and SI data stream over the RDBS band on either of those slots as well. and since RDBS only uses CONUS beam transponders, any markets with spot-beamed SD locals on 101 or 119 without HD versions would be lost, but that should be comparatively few nowadays.    


Edited by HoTat2, 27 June 2013 - 06:18 AM.

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#738 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:52 AM

DISH 118.7 and 119 are adjacent Ku bands. Same LNBF package.

118.0W TP1 11.71475 R - 118.0W TP32 12.18525 L
119.0W TP1 12.22400 R - 119.0W TP21 12.51560 R

Typically those in the industry can figure these things out. RDBS isn't that far away.

Those frequencies are probably be close enough to be picked up on the same antenna.

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#739 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:05 AM

Why not substitute RDBS for legacy Ku?

Because there are still a lot of unsuitable dishes out there? Transitioning to RDBS would almost certainly require conversion of the entire ODU (including the mounting plate) as opposed to just the LNB assembly as you suggest.

RDBS probably suffers similar aiming sensitivities as Ka when applied to mobile users.

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#740 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:06 AM

Fortunately, there are some folks who DO know this stuff in very great detail who are willing to keep the thread informative and factual.

And when are these folks going to demonstrate their willingness?

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