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DirecTV Satellite Discussion (D14 up next)


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#861 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:46 PM

Well, there's other stuff in there about the Intelsat leased capacity for Latin America. The first one of those is going up on Arianespace too:

 

http://www.arianespa...32Satellite.asp

 

I'm pretty sure those birds are large Astrium platforms though, like Directv 15, not the smaller Orbital platform mentioned in the press release I linked first. ...  

 

 

Nah ...

 

Intelsat 30 and 31 (or DLA1 and 2) are being built the Space Systems Loral, not Astrium;

 http://www.spacenews...directv-1b-deal

 

Using their "SS/L 1300E" bus according the engineering statement Intelsat filed with the FCC. 

 

And both are scheduled for launch sometime in the 3rd quarters of 2014 and 2015 respectively by Arianspace.  


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#862 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:25 PM

BTW;

 

Any folks here with a knack for understanding the orbital mechanics of artificial satellites have any idea as to how Intelsat plans to eventually keep the 3 satellites for DIRECTV LA (IS30, 31, and G3C) in geostationary orbit all at the same location of 95.1 W.L. yet sufficiently separated due to different orbital eccentricities the inclination offsets of their respective orbits? :confused:

 

From the Intelsat filed Engineering Statement;

 

Sec. 2.9) Satellite Station-Keeping

 

Section 25.210(j) of the Commission’s rules stipulates that space stations

operated in the geostationary satellite orbit must be maintained within 0.05°

of their assigned orbital longitude in the east/west direction, unless

specifically authorized by the Commission to operate with a different

longitudinal tolerance. In this regard, Intelsat requests that Intelsat 30 be

maintained within 0.1° of 95.1° W.L. orbital location.

As previously stated, Intelsat plans to operate Galaxy 3C, Intelsat 30 and

another planned satellite, Intelsat 31, at 95.1° W.L. Intelsat shall maintain

sufficient spatial separation between these three spacecraft through the use

of orbit eccentricity and inclination offsets. As part of this process, Intelsat

requires greater flexibility with regard to the amount of excursion that each

of these satellites may be permitted to have in the east/west direction. This

slight increase in the station-keeping tolerance will have a negligible

interference impact on the nearest adjacent satellites, Galaxy 25 at 93.1°

W.L. and Galaxy 19 at 97° W.L, which are licensed to Intelsat.

 

The attitude of the spacecraft will be maintained with accuracy consistent

with the achievement of the specified communications performance, after

taking into account all error sources (i.e., attitude perturbations, thermal

distortions, misalignments, orbital tolerances and thruster perturbations).

 

      


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#863 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 04:00 PM

Why should it be hard to maintain three satellites to within 0.05 degrees of their designated location? 0.05 degrees is about 10 miles. This Wikipedia article mentions the first time it was done back in the 90s they eventually had 8 satellites in one slot, inside a cube of 150 km (about 3.3 miles on each side) so keeping three in one slot should be simple by comparison.


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#864 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 08:11 PM

Why should it be hard to maintain three satellites to within 0.05 degrees of their designated location? 0.05 degrees is about 10 miles. This Wikipedia article mentions the first time it was done back in the 90s they eventually had 8 satellites in one slot, inside a cube of 150 km (about 3.3 miles on each side) so keeping three in one slot should be simple by comparison.

OK;

 

But the statements about setting eccentricity and inclination offsets of the satellite orbits to assure separation seemed to indicate some kind of plan for a sort of figure-8 ("analemma") type path to be used by one or all three of the birds together to achieve this separation.     


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#865 OFFLINE   LameLefty

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 08:39 PM

OK;

But the statements about setting eccentricity and inclination offsets of the satellite orbits to assure separation seemed to indicate some kind of plan for a sort of figure-8 ("analemma") type path to be used by one or all three of the birds together to achieve this separation.

What that means is basically this: as seen from a fixed point on the Earth's surface, they vehicles will appear to the naked eye to be fixed but there is always some irreguality - eccentricity isn't precisely zero, the Earth isn't a perfect sphere, solar pressue and lunar gravity causes small perturbations, etc. So with all those influences in mind, the vehicles in that "slot" are given nominal baseline parameters several miles offset from one another (I did the math many years ago in the D10 threads). But not only are they offset a bit laterally like that, since eccentricity isn't (and cannot be) perfectly zero, a natural consequence will be that they will not EXACTLY match the Earth's rotational rate. So, they will each naturally appear to drift a tiny bit east and west. Also since the Earth isn't a perfect sphere and eccentricity isn't perfectly zero, the apparent altitude of the satellite from Earth's center of mass will change ever so slightly. This also results in east-west drift because higher orbits are slower than lower ones - the satellites will appear to move eastward when they are lower, and westward when they are higher, as seen from the ground. So the control volumes for each vehicle is thus a 3-D space defined by the limits of apparent east-west drift and by the apogee/perigee altitude difference which defines the orbital eccentricity.

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#866 OFFLINE   LameLefty

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 08:42 PM

Intelsat 30 and 31 (or DLA1 and 2) are being built the Space Systems Loral, not Astrium;
 http://www.spacenews...directv-1b-deal
 
Using their "SS/L 1300E" bus according the engineering statement Intelsat filed with the FCC. 


Yeah, brain fart when I posted last night. I knew that but got myself off into rabbit hole digging into the oddball Orbital bird and got my mental wires crossed. I've never really made it a priority to pay much attention to the Directv Latin America stuff.

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#867 OFFLINE   LameLefty

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 08:49 PM

What that means is basically this: as seen from a fixed point on the Earth's surface, they vehicles will appear to the naked eye to be fixed but there is always some irreguality - eccentricity isn't precisely zero, the Earth isn't a perfect sphere, solar pressue and lunar gravity causes small perturbations, etc. So with all those influences in mind, the vehicles in that "slot" are given nominal baseline parameters several miles offset from one another (I did the math many years ago in the D10 threads). But not only are they offset a bit laterally like that, since eccentricity isn't (and cannot be) perfectly zero, a natural consequence will be that they will not EXACTLY match the Earth's rotational rate. So, they will each naturally appear to drift a tiny bit east and west. Also since the Earth isn't a perfect sphere and eccentricity isn't perfectly zero, the apparent altitude of the satellite from Earth's center of mass will change ever so slightly. This also results in east-west drift because higher orbits are slower than lower ones - the satellites will appear to move eastward when they are lower, and westward when they are higher, as seen from the ground. So the control volumes for each vehicle is thus a 3-D space defined by the limits of apparent east-west drift and by the apogee/perigee altitude difference which defines the orbital eccentricity, as well as north/south drift rate caused slight variances in orbital inclination.

Planning to keep several satellites at one "slot" takes the individual orbital parameters for each vehicle into account and sets up tiny variances intentionally such that their control volumes never intersect; as one is showing a tiny apparent drift south, its nearest neighbor will appear to drift a tiny bit north, etc. It's sort of an elaborate 3D choreography to get it set up and it requires minor tweaks every so often to maintain, which is why satellites have limited lifetimes and why otherwise usable vehicles are retired - at some point their fuel reserves get low and they are required by international agreement to save enough to ensure that they can be raised a few hundred kilometers into a graveyard orbit out of the way.


EDITED TO ADD: Didn't mean to quote my own post, sorry. Meant to edit it and didn't realized I'd pressed the wrong button until I'd already posted.

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#868 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:56 AM

Planning to keep several satellites at one "slot" takes the individual orbital parameters for each vehicle into account and sets up tiny variances intentionally such that their control volumes never intersect; as one is showing a tiny apparent drift south, its nearest neighbor will appear to drift a tiny bit north, etc. It's sort of an elaborate 3D choreography to get it set up and it requires minor tweaks every so often to maintain, which is why satellites have limited lifetimes and why otherwise usable vehicles are retired - at some point their fuel reserves get low and they are required by international agreement to save enough to ensure that they can be raised a few hundred kilometers into a graveyard orbit out of the way.


EDITED TO ADD: Didn't mean to quote my own post, sorry. Meant to edit it and didn't realized I'd pressed the wrong button until I'd already posted.

Since all the satellites operate on most if not all of the same uplink frequency bands, do the large earth station dishes have to move slightly to track the individual satellites' movement throughout this "3-D choreography?"

 

That is to say with satellites performing this "orbital ballet" at the same slot, what prevents co-channel interference between the separate uplink transmissions intended for G3C, IS30, and IS31 since they all receive on most if not all the same frequencies?   


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#869 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 06:57 AM

HoTat2, on 08 Oct 2013 - 2:25 PM, said:
Any folks here with a knack for understanding the orbital mechanics of artificial satellites have any idea as to how Intelsat plans to eventually keep the 3 satellites for DIRECTV LA (IS30, 31, and G3C) in geostationary orbit all at the same location of 95.1 W.L. yet sufficiently separated due to different orbital eccentricities the inclination offsets of their respective orbits? :confused:

If it helps to know that it is currently being done with the same type of birds, there are three TV satellites at 101W, 107.3W, 110W and 119W that are operated by different organizations and they haven't crashed yet.

Every 1/100th of a degree is 4.53 miles.

It is also important to remember that each satellite is impinged upon by roughly the same external forces so as they get pushed or pulled about, that movement is more or less in unison.

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#870 OFFLINE   LameLefty

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:16 AM

It is also important to remember that each satellite is impinged upon by roughly the same external forces so as they get pushed or pulled about, that movement is more or less in unison.

 

 

That's true enough for lunar tides, but it's not necessarily the case for solar radiation pressure, or resultant vectors caused by small asymmetries in attitude control and propulsion systems. That's why operators agree to coordinate their satellite control operations, and why the FCC is concerned enough about signal interference that licensees must always make sure to put assurances in their application and permit paperwork that control signals won't interfere with one another.


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#871 OFFLINE   LameLefty

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:23 AM

Since all the satellites operate on most if not all of the same uplink frequency bands, do the large earth station dishes have to move slightly to track the individual satellites' movement throughout this "3-D choreography?"

 

That is to say with satellites performing this "orbital ballet" at the same slot, what prevents co-channel interference between the separate uplink transmissions intended for G3C, IS30, and IS31 since they all receive on most if not all the same frequencies?   

 

These might be better questions for VOS or someone with a lot of real-world operational RF experience like Smiddy ... As a first guesstimate, I would think the answer would depend on the beam width of the control signals as to how precise the pointing must be. I THINK that the usual variations during normal orbital operations wouldn't require re-pointing. I mean, a few miles either way, as seen from 22,300 odd miles away, is a REALLY small variation for a large uplink dish.

 

I believe the FCC permitting paperwork specifies the allowable uplink and control frequencies for each satellite vehicle and operators must again provide verification that they will not interfere with one another. I would think these days that part of that is may be use of digital encoding and encryption of control signals, as well as frequency variations for uplinked content, but I could be wrong - it's nothing I've looked at very closely.


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#872 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:31 PM

Since all the satellites operate on most if not all of the same uplink frequency bands, do the large earth station dishes have to move slightly to track the individual satellites' movement throughout this "3-D choreography?"


The uplinks are tied to the downlinks so you would only find the same uplink bands on satellites with the same downlink bands. If you can find the Schedule S filed with the FCC for US satellites or data from the ITU for all satellites it isn't hard to see how the spectrum is managed.

That is to say with satellites performing this "orbital ballet" at the same slot, what prevents co-channel interference between the separate uplink transmissions intended for G3C, IS30, and IS31 since they all receive on most if not all the same frequencies?


One common feature you will find on satellites with spotbeams or more than one footprint is a receive dish on the satellite that is aimed at a specific receive site. Uplinks from Brazil do not interfere with uplinks from LA.

The global antennas used for receiving station keeping commands require more coordination.
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#873 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:55 PM

I was looking back through some older posts on this thread while killing time on a conference call and saw D15 was listed as being destined for 97W. Is there still a chance for that? That would obviously require a new LNB, but presumably could use the existing Slimline dish.

 

There was a link to a patent someone dug up back on page 9 for a LNB that had feedhorns designed to receive 17.3 - 20.2 GHz (i.e. specifically including RDBS frequencies) that included a frequency selective reflecting surface on the LNB arm. This would reflect a Ku signal and pass a Ka signal after it reflected off the dish towards the 101 feedhorn, so both could be received from 101 at the same time. If they went this way the LNB arm would need to be replaced as well. Is it designed to be removable on a Slimline dish? Of course, just because there's a patent filed doesn't mean it'll go anywhere, of course. I wonder how that high tech surface would do in places that get snow/ice. Or bird poop :)

 

The other thing I was wondering about was there was some discussion about maybe needing more than 4 coaxes at some point, and going to 6. It looks like right now the only open space is 1650 - 2150 MHz on the 99/101 lines, which is where D14's Ka capacity would presumably go, creating a 99cb. But that's all there is, so either they go higher in frequency like VOS suggests, or need another pair of coaxes.

 

Going to higher frequencies is obviously preferable, assuming that the tuners in legacy capable receivers and SWM 8/16/32 switches can handle the 2350 - 2850 MHz range. If they were forced to go to 6 coaxes, I wonder if there would be any chance of using the flex ports to avoid the need to replace all those SWM multiswitches? They'd have to replicate 95's content on one of the new sats to allow freeing up on both flex ports, but 95 has only 9 transponders, so that would not be difficult.


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#874 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:59 PM

No clue and d15 could be for Latin America too you never know for sure they can always change things. I doubt it but...,

#875 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 02:06 AM

I was looking back through some older posts on this thread while killing time on a conference call and saw D15 was listed as being destined for 97W. Is there still a chance for that? That would obviously require a new LNB, but presumably could use the existing Slimline dish.

 

Know which post that is?

 

Looking back all I could locate was a brief mention of it by P. Smith on page 8 and it was in the form of a question.

 

IIRC, DIRECTV withdrew their bid for a Ka band satellite at 97W.

 

There was a link to a patent someone dug up back on page 9 for a LNB that had feedhorns designed to receive 17.3 - 20.2 GHz (i.e. specifically including RDBS frequencies) that included a frequency selective reflecting surface on the LNB arm. This would reflect a Ku signal and pass a Ka signal after it reflected off the dish towards the 101 feedhorn, so both could be received from 101 at the same time. If they went this way the LNB arm would need to be replaced as well. Is it designed to be removable on a Slimline dish? Of course, just because there's a patent filed doesn't mean it'll go anywhere, of course. I wonder how that high tech surface would do in places that get snow/ice. Or bird poop :)

 

Yeah ,,, a novel concept;

 

Not sure how much interest DIRECTV at least has in developing something akin to it for receiving the Ka and Ku band from the same slot, but did like to see how the author purposes a 17.3-20.2 GHz wide feedhorn which I feel is the approach to be used at 99 and 103 instead of separate ones for the RDBS and the Ka bands.

  

The other thing I was wondering about was there was some discussion about maybe needing more than 4 coaxes at some point, and going to 6. It looks like right now the only open space is 1650 - 2150 MHz on the 99/101 lines, which is where D14's Ka capacity would presumably go, creating a 99cb. But that's all there is, so either they go higher in frequency like VOS suggests, or need another pair of coaxes.

 

Likely to be called "99ca" :)

 

And yes, the Ka-hi band (1650-2150 MHz) at 99W currently occupied sparely by spotbeams from Spaceway 2 on tps. 1-6 is to be completely filled by D14 tps.1-24 (tps. 1-8 are spotbeams). Not sure what that means for SW2's future role at 99W now though.

 

Going to higher frequencies is obviously preferable, assuming that the tuners in legacy capable receivers and SWM 8/16/32 switches can handle the 2350 - 2850 MHz range.

 

 For the ITU region covering the U.S., RDBS band  is only 400 MHz.
If they were forced to go to 6 coaxes, I wonder if there would be any chance of using the flex ports to avoid the need to replace all those SWM multiswitches? They'd have to replicate 95's content on one of the new sats to allow freeing up on both flex ports, but 95 has only 9 transponders, so that would not be difficult.

 

Yeah, since there is really no room in the current stack of three 500 MHz wide blocks separated by 200 MHz guard bands, the LNBFs connected to external SWiM units will either have to move the converted RDBS band outside the stack "electrically" by converting to a frequency somewhere above 2150 MHz. Or move it "physically" by re-tasking the flexports.

 

I feel it will be the prior since other than mounting the SWIM module outdoors, having six coax runs to the POE of a residence is a total non-starter. Four is bad enough.   


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#876 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 02:21 AM

No clue and d15 could be for Latin America too you never know for sure they can always change things. I doubt it but...,

Nah ...

 

Virtually certain D15 is to be used for DIRECTV USA;

 

Don't know where yet among those assets since no public FCC information has been submitted for it at present, but almost a certainty it will be for DIRECTV USA.

 

DIRECTV LA uses the FSS Ku and extended Ku bands. Not the BSS Ku, Ka and RDBS bands to be used by D15.


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#877 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 11:24 AM

I wonder if someday we will start seeing birds do double duty. Bss for USA and ku for Latin from the same bird for example. Just a random thought.

#878 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 01:36 PM

Know which post that is?

 

Looking back all I could locate was a brief mention of it by P. Smith on page 8 and it was in the form of a question.

 

IIRC, DIRECTV withdrew their bid for a Ka band satellite at 97W.

 

There were a bunch of them, just search for "97" on this thread. However, when I did so I saw a post I must have missed before that Directv had withdrawn their applications for 97W as you said. So I guess D15 could not be going there. That patent filing about the selectively reflecting surface to allow Ka band at 101 becomes more interesting.

 

 

Yeah, since there is really no room in the current stack of three 500 MHz wide blocks separated by 200 MHz guard bands, the LNBFs connected to external SWiM units will either have to move the converted RDBS band outside the stack "electrically" by converting to a frequency somewhere above 2150 MHz. Or move it "physically" by re-tasking the flexports.

 

I feel it will be the prior since other than mounting the SWIM module outdoors, having six coax runs to the POE of a residence is a total non-starter. Four is bad enough.

 

I agree that using higher frequencies is preferable, though they could limit the number of residences needing 6 coaxes if they were able to introduce an improved SWM LNB that had more channels (via a wider frequency range, less space between them, or both) If they could get to 12 or 16 there would be far fewer residential customers needing a legacy LNB. Of course that would depend on the receivers being able to use it with a simple firmware upgrade, which may or may not be possible - just depends on how much of the SWM capability is implemented in hardware versus the hardware being more flexible and mostly controlled via software.

 

Whatever they may do that requires a new LNB, I couldn't see it being done for something that had a wide market. Maybe they'd put the locals for small markets in it (especially markets that are currently only on 119) Or maybe use it for something with narrow appeal, like 4K channels.


Edited by slice1900, 19 October 2013 - 01:37 PM.

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#879 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 02:30 PM

When you think about I, that is how they pushed out the lnbs that gab 99 and 103. It was for new Hi Definition mpeg4 service. We could easily see them moving to This new LNG system for 4k at some point. Would keep the roll out of that equipment slow and steady. ,also with more foreign language stuff too.

#880 OFFLINE   JosephB

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 04:24 PM

This has been discussed to death, but I don't see 4K being big enough to pay for its own orbital slot, especially if it's new. I could see them pushing 4K to 110/119 and if you want 4K you get a SLS-5 LNB

 

Anything requiring new hardware is certainly going to be a challenge at DirecTV's current scale, but niche services simply can't support the costs involved with a new satellite and hardware rollout. They ultimately will need to get large portions of their customer base on those platforms to pay off, and 4K isn't going to do that.






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