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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content?


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Poll: Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content? (143 member(s) have cast votes)

Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content?

  1. Yes, DirecTv should lessen the EDID restrictions for watching 3D content. (115 votes [80.42%])

    Percentage of vote: 80.42%

  2. No, the EDID restrictions imposed by DirecTv for watching 3D content is good. (28 votes [19.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.58%

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#1 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 06:26 PM

Currently it appears that DirecTv is requiring some stringent EDID requirements in order to watch content in 3D. For instance in many cases you can not connect an A/V Receiver between your 3D capable HDTV and your DirecTv receiver even if the A/V Receiver is 3D compliant. DirecTv is only supporting 3D if the 3D HDTV is hooked up directly to the DirecTv receiver. Most early adopters of technology such as 3D are A/V enthusiasts who own A/V Receivers and therefor this restriction does not make sense.

Their are also several of us who own 3D ready Samsung DLP HDTVs who have bought the Mitsubishi 3DA-1 3D Converter and a Gefen HDMI Detective in order to watch 3D content. The EDID restrictions appear to be causing problems when watching 3D content on our HDTVs. Sometimes we can watch the 3D content and then sometimes it shows as not available. The

Furthermore, some users have reported problems regarding 3D where they can watch pre-recorded content on their HDTVs but then their 3D HDTV tells them their TV is not 3D capable when they try to watch live 3D content.

Many of these problems are not occurring using 3D blu-ray players and other set top boxes to watch 3D. Therefore, DirecTv must be doing something with the EDID information that is preventing several 3D HDTV owners from enjoying 3D content on their HDTV.

If a person does not own a 3D capable set then they can not watch 3D content. Therefore, having such limiting 3D EDID restriction seems counter productive to the ultimate goal of promoting 3D programing and content. What do you think?

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#2 OFFLINE   wilbur_the_goose

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 06:47 PM

Geaux - You're possibly not seeing the reason for this - it's to protect intellectual property rights. I'm betting it's required by Hollywood.

(See the history of DVD-Audio for another Hollywood SNAFU)

#3 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 06:51 PM

Geaux - You're possibly not seeing the reason for this - it's to protect intellectual property rights. I'm betting it's required by Hollywood.

(See the history of DVD-Audio for another Hollywood SNAFU)


If someone can explain that one to me then I am all ears. I understand HDCP and other requirements because of copy protection but how do EDID restrictions benefit anyone?

#4 OFFLINE   LarryFlowers

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:13 PM

Is DirecTV's method stringent? Are other systems having a problem?

You have a TV that is not supported by DirecTV. You have purchased other equipment to make it work... I am not being argumentative here, but could it be the presence of everything you are using that is causing the problem?

If a TV is supported by DirecTV, and an AV receiver is 3D compliant, does it work? If it does, then DirecTV is doing nothing wrong in its implementation of EDID.
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#5 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:21 PM

OK, I have a little more information on this today. In addition to the EDID for 3DTV, there is also something called a Vendor Specific Infoframe (VSI). The A/V Receivers will impact both of these. 3D is not supported via A/V Receivers because most of them are not supporting 3D cleanly (despite claims). You really need to be talking to whoever made the A/V Receiver.

The only real remedy in this situation is to use TOSLink for audio and run HR to HDMI to Converter to TV directly.
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#6 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:27 PM

Geaux - You're possibly not seeing the reason for this - it's to protect intellectual property rights. I'm betting it's required by Hollywood.


I'm confused by this as well. Why would Hollywood impose restrictions on which make/model TV you view this content on? Even if they did, why would they want people using an "approved" TV to not be able to pass the signal through their surround sound receiver?

This whole situation is the biggest mess. It's as if no one really put any thought into how all this might work. DirecTV has dedicated the bandwidth for three 3d channels, yet doesn't appear interested in making it easy for those who may want to watch it. Currently, the biggest potential market for this content is going to be those who have 3d ready DLP displays which have been being sold for the past three years. But these sets require an adapter to work with the new 3d standards. The adapter is required to be directly connected to the TV. But DirecTV requires the adapter to be directly connected to the DVR. Put those two together, and you can't pass the signal through an AVR (unless you use the optical/coaxial/analog connectors, which have their own caveats). The people who may be interested in 3d are much of the same people who would have their video gear connected to good sound systems. So who are they marketing these channels to?!?

I read of one guy who had a 2010 Mitsubishi DLP, which has built in support for SBS and top/bottom formats, and therefore doesn't need the adapter. But DirecTV didn't add his TV to "the list", so they say he has to buy and connect the adapter, which he doesn't even need for his TV! :nono2:
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#7 ONLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:32 PM

There's "restrictions" and there's "compliance"

The two are not mutually exclusive nor necessarily the same. The HDTV manufacturers own their part of the choices made in determining a technology in their equipment. That industry also struggles to adopt standards, resulting in further skewing of tech deployment.
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#8 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:32 PM

You really need to be talking to whoever made the A/V Receiver.


How so? My understanding is that DirecTV receivers are the ONLY ones that don't allow you to view HD content even if a 3d display isn't detected. Some just don't care, and some offer a workaround. If DirecTV is the only 3d source that can't play through all these various receivers, why is it the receiver's fault?
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#9 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:33 PM

OK, I have a little more information on this today. In addition to the EDID for 3DTV, there is also something called a Vendor Specific Infoframe (VSI). The A/V Receivers will impact both of these. 3D is not supported via A/V Receivers because most of them are not supporting 3D cleanly (despite claims). You really need to be talking to whoever made the A/V Receiver.

The only real remedy in this situation is to use TOSLink for audio and run HR to HDMI to Converter to TV directly.


Doug,

I am a loyal DirecTv customer. I just started this poll and thread not as an attack on DirecTv put to provoke discussion and exchange of information. However, why are all of these restrictions in place and what purpose do they serve? I understand HDCP protection but I do not understand this one. Additionally, from reading posts it appears that many others are only having problems with their equipment when using DirecTv equipment. Are the engineers working on this or do you have any more information. Thanks.

#10 ONLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:42 PM

How so? My understanding is that DirecTV receivers are the ONLY ones that don't allow you to view HD content even if a 3d display isn't detected. Some just don't care, and some offer a workaround. If DirecTV is the only 3d source that can't play through all these various receivers, why is it the receiver's fault?

...and yet many can view their 3D just fine....so the receiver manufacturers DO have some responsibility in adopting standards. Unfortunately, those same manufacturers often contribute to fighting any standards.

The same things happen with "HDMI compatibility", where some HDTVs support HDMI v1.1, others 1.3, others 1.4, and so on. When attached devices don't work....who owns the problem?

My contention is the audio/video manufacturing industry itself that promotes and encourages a mentality of ever-changing and inconsistent "standards". It sells more equipment....it also creates more problems and confusion.

The best that can be expected is for DirecTV to support as many variations of audio codecs, signal formats, etc as they can within reason. That still will not guarantee 100% compatibility.
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#11 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:45 PM

Doug,

I am a loyal DirecTv customer. I just started this poll and thread not as an attack on DirecTv put to provoke discussion and exchange of information. However, why are all of these restrictions in place and what purpose do they serve? I understand HDCP protection but I do not understand this one. Additionally, from reading posts it appears that many others are only having problems with their equipment when using DirecTv equipment. Are the engineers working on this or do you have any more information. Thanks.


I've told you what I know .. I don't have any way to test this out myself as I do not have a 3DTV. Also, DIRECTV very rarely shares with me details of their Engineering process or other decisions.

As for "are they working on this?" My guess is that DIRECTV is following all of the specifications to a T including the VSI bit and that the AVR vendors are not. This may be something necessary for what DIRECTV is doing but not required for other sources. I really don't know. Will TOSLink for audio and HDMI out to the TV not work?
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#12 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:46 PM

Is DirecTV's method stringent? Are other systems having a problem?

You have a TV that is not supported by DirecTV. You have purchased other equipment to make it work... I am not being argumentative here, but could it be the presence of everything you are using that is causing the problem?


Just to explain the issue to those who don't have it: DirecTV has a list of 3d TVs they support. They determine whether or not you have that TV based on the EDID info that is passed back via the HDMI connection. If you don't have that TV, OR if you have something else in the chain in between the DirecTV receiver and the TV that produces it's own EDID info (like many receivers and splitters), then the receiver will not allow you to tune to a 3d channel. So to answer your question, yes, it could be the presence of other gear that is causing the problem, because DirecTV has designed the system to not allow that gear. Gear that is common to home theater setups.

Other sources may give you a warning but still let you turn on 3d output, but DirecTV just gives you a message that your TV isn't 3d capable (even though it may be), and won't let you watch it. Others require a workaround. Like the PS3, which requires that you connect your 3d device to the PS3 ONCE, then once it knows you have it, you can connect it normally through your receiver, and that mode will stay enabled.

I'm still failing to see the benefit to anyone for locking these channels out. Even if you don't have a 3d TV, if you tune to it, you just see a picture with the image duplicated on the left/right side of the screen. Pop up a warning and say that it won't look right on a non-3d display. What's the harm?
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#13 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:54 PM

...and yet many can view their 3D just fine....

Of course. Those who don't use a reciever, and those who have a reciever that just passes along the EDID of the TV rather than having one of it's own. And maybe those who have a receiver that DirecTV has added to their list (though there aren't any receivers on their public list).

so the receiver manufacturers DO have some responsibility in adopting standards. Unfortunately, those same manufacturers often contribute to fighting any standards.

Just to be clear here, this has NOTHING to do with standards. This is not equivalent to an HDMI handshake issue, where something should work, but standards weren't implemented properly, etc. DirecTV is not even allowing 3d mode to turn on, so there is no evidence this has anything to do with standards or compatibility. This is ONLY about DirecTV's choice in how/if they enable 3d. There is, however, evidence that IF they would allow it to turn on, that it would work just fine. Some have bought HDMI spoofers to make the DVR think that it's connected to a device off of their list, and that worked. And there was a day where they accidentally left one channel enabled. It worked for people on that day too.
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#14 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:57 PM

Just curious: for those who voted "the EDID restrictions imposed by DirecTv for watching 3D content is good"... WHY is it good?
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#15 OFFLINE   wilbur_the_goose

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:06 PM

I voted "good" because I don't want D* sued by Hollywood studios.

#16 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:09 PM

I voted "good" because I don't want D* sued by Hollywood studios.


So what would make someone believe this has anything to do with "Hollywood" or any kind of copyright/licensing issue?
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#17 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:25 PM

Will TOSLink for audio and HDMI out to the TV not work?

Just to answer this one, it will work, but not without potential pitfalls. In my case, my receiver has some audio and video processing circuits (Audyssey room EQ, an internal scaler, etc.). These features do cost processing cycles, and the output from the receiver is delayed relative to the input. I can turn features off, but the delay remains constant. So if video goes straight to the TV, but the audio goes through the receiver, they are no longer in sync. I also have a splitter downstream of my receiver so I can distribute a/v throughout the house (that way during TV parties if you pause/ff/etc, all rooms are in sync). I also like to use the scaler in my receiver for 480/720p content, as it's better than what's in my TV and in the DVR. Also, today's AVRs have more HDMI connections, but shrinking toslink connections. This last one I could work around by some shuffling, but the others I don't want to.

I can buy an HDMI detective fix this issue, but that's just plain silly to have to spend another $100 on a device just to trick the DVR into thinking I have something that is already there!
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#18 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 09:02 PM

Just curious: for those who voted "the EDID restrictions imposed by DirecTv for watching 3D content is good"... WHY is it good?


My guess is that some who voted no did so simply because they perceived the thread as an attack against DirecTv and its current policy. Some members of DBS.talk are very protective of DirecTv to an extent that some may say makes them yes men. This thread is only intended to foster communication, gather information, and for healthy debate.

Interesting enough, the initial no votes came in one big wave all at once and the rest of the votes in the poll have taken place at a much slower pace.

Edited by geaux tigers, 02 August 2010 - 09:19 PM.


#19 OFFLINE   GregLee

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 09:09 PM

My guess is that DIRECTV is following all of the specifications to a T including the VSI bit and that the AVR vendors are not.

That's a little vague, but maybe that's right, and DirecTV is following specs, so when you can't get your AVR to work with DirecTV 3d channels, it's the AVR's fault. But why should I care whose fault it is? Am I an HDMI enforcement officer? I just want my equipment to work to do what I want, and DirecTV is blocking a TV signal in some cases, when there is no apparent point to it. It is just very irritating. Even supposing DirecTV is within its rights to frustrate some of its customers this way, does that mean they should do it?
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#20 OFFLINE   tonyd79

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 09:32 PM

FWIW, Fios does not even block 3D for non-3D TVs. I can watch the one 3D on demand program and see two pictures side by side just fine. I am working on blinking really fast.

They do not autoadjust for 3D. They tell you to turn 3D on on your TV.

I think it is because DirecTV wants 3D to be seamless.
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