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Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content?


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Poll: Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content? (143 member(s) have cast votes)

Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content?

  1. Yes, DirecTv should lessen the EDID restrictions for watching 3D content. (115 votes [80.42%])

    Percentage of vote: 80.42%

  2. No, the EDID restrictions imposed by DirecTv for watching 3D content is good. (28 votes [19.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.58%

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#26 OFFLINE   Lee L

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 03:44 AM

I think the biggest problem here has nothing to do with hdcp or anything else, its more a lack of true conformity among all manufacturers, and the fact that this technology is by all real standards, new.. Come talk to me in 5 years, when it might have begun to show real market penetration in view-ship, and all manufactures will have had 2 or 3 real generational changes in their lineups of equipment, then see how many issues of this nature we have.

Anyone else remember hop the first 2 to 3+ generations of hd sets only worked with their specific hd decoder boxes and not other manufacturers? Same thing here...


I certainly don't remember that. When was it exactly that there were special converter boxes? Pretty much every box I have seen (and I started seriously researching HDTV in 2000 and bought an HDTV in early 2001) had component or DB15 out and every TV accepted that. It was only when DVI and HDMI started up that there began to be incompatibilities between sets and boxes.

As far as 3D. If you wait 5 years, no one will care because it is a gimmick that Hollywood is already starting to see reduced returns from. No content = no or very little home 3D. Now, if suddenly every movie is made like Avatar, things might be different, but since only someone like Cameron wants to spend that kind of money, the "3D" movies made will continue to not be much of a value add for moviegoers.


DirecTV, please don't make me have to go back to watching March Madness in standard Def! Oh, and the usual begging for AMC and BBC America. You are so close to actually being the HD Leader.

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#27 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 04:18 AM

Just to be clear here, this has NOTHING to do with standards.

It has everything to do with standards.

Even the manufacturer reps at CES this year stated this. They indicated the 3D tech market was still quite new, and that "standards were being established over time, but not yet in place." That came from a senior Panasonic 3D guru there, and was confirmed in the Samsung booth as well.

Without tech standards, you get the same mess that is out there right now with HDMI changes....equipment mismatch problems.
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#28 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 04:23 AM

[quote name='inkahauts']I think the biggest problem here has nothing to do with hdcp or anything else, its more a lack of true conformity among all manufacturers, and the fact that this technology is by all real standards, new..[/QUOTE]
But the issue here isn't a problem of equipment not working. As has been proven by those who use an EDID spoofer to trick the receiver into thinking it's directly connected to something on their list, the equipment works fine. The problem is, DirecTV isn't even letting you tune to a channel unless they detect you have certain things connected a certain way. And that way they want it essentially means you can't have a high end surround setup involved.
[quote name='netraa']Why should Directv spend millions of dollars trying to make tens of thousands of one off setups work when the standards are going to be different in 6 months, and yet again in another 6 months.[/QUOTE]
What makes you think the standards are changing? Who's asking them to spend millions of dollars? All we want is to allow those of us with working 3d setups to watch 3d content. It would be a lot less costly for them to not try and micromanage a list of setups they believe will work, as opposed to just letting us turn it on. Just like they do with 24p. They didn't try to make up a list of EDID numbers of equipment they know works with 24p, they just have a system that let's you enable it by simply confirming that you can see the image if that mode is turned on.
[/quote]As Directv has shown they are going to go with a white list method instead of a black list method.[/quote]
And a perfect example of a problem with a white list is the 2010 Mitsubishis. They require that those sets have to have the 3d adapter before they'll let you watch a 3d channel, but the 2010 models don't need the adapter. They have that functionality built in.
[quote]For example the only official support of MRV being the Directv deca. will other methods work, yes, but if it breaks don't call us.[/quote]
And if that was how it worked, I'd be perfectly happy. But they just flat won't let you tune to a 3d channel unless you have something on their list, connected the way they want it connected.

[quote name='LarryFlowers']Some facts:
1. You own a TV that does not support the 3D system DirecTV is using.
2. You have repeatedly made the point that you can't believe they did this, ignoring the fact that the existence of multiple competing 3D standards is not DirecTV's fault.
3. You have apparently found some adaptive technology that allows you to get around this problem and DirecTV is supposed to adjust their system to accomodate this type of "rig"?[/quote]
1. I do. But they apparently don't want me to enjoy 3d with surround sound.
2. There aren't multiple competing 3d standards. The standards for both broadcast and blu-ray have been set. We just want them to allow our equipment that conforms to these standards to be used.
3. We just want them to get out of the business of second-guessing what will and won't work, and let watch 3d on equipment that DOES work.
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#29 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 04:26 AM

It has everything to do with standards.


This particular problem has nothing to do with standards. Stop trying to makek this into something it's not. We have equipment that meets the 3d broadcast standards, and works with everything else that conforms to them.
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#30 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 04:52 AM

This particular problem has nothing to do with standards. Stop trying to make this into something it's not. We have equipment that meets the 3d broadcast standards, and works with everything else that conforms to them.

Really? Apparently you must know something more about 3D than the manufacturers who produce the hardware or content providers.

THEY indicate there are only a very few standards in 3D transmission and more important...image presentation at this time, and THEY are all working toward establishing standards.

In some cases....this will prompt display "retrofits" (adapters) to continue to function with updated 3D that meets the latest "standards". Today, the equipment may work....but there are few standards. The technology in how 3D HDTV works in a number of Mitsubishi units is different than how it works in Panasonic displays....This is further evidenced by the changes/adapters required for some of the Mitz HDTV's to "work with" 3D receivers/DVRs.....whether you want to accept that or not is fine - but it comes from the industry itself.

Here are just a few pieces that discuss the lack of establishing standards in 3D technology:

http://all3dtv.com/2...to-be-proposed/

http://www.broadcast...3D_Adoption.php

http://paytvblog.ver...sings-from-ces/

http://www.etcenter....c_3D_primer.pdf

What makes you think the standards are changing? Who's asking them to spend millions of dollars? All we want is to allow those of us with working 3d setups to watch 3d content.

The technology is new, and will evolve/change. It's happened over and over with other "new" offerings.

Early adopters always run the risk of getting equipment that may not be "up to speed" with later standards...Component, DVI, HDMI 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.4a just to name a few examples of evolution. It happens. It also means myriads of equipment are sold without fulfilling the "latest and greatest.

In the case of 3D....what will happen when Texas Instruments or another manufacturer finally releases "glasses free" 3D? It's not a matter if IF, its a matter of WHEN.

Again....saw the prototype technology at CES...and its going to have a place in the market....after all....what's the #1 "issue" folks have about 3D adoption...the glasses. What happens when those are no longer needed? More changes.

Bottom line - 3D is in its infancy, and will "grow up". That will include changes.
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#31 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 05:08 AM

I voted "good" because I don't want D* sued by Hollywood studios.

The use of EDID and VSI is in compliance with the HDMI 1.4a specification. Does Hollywood anything to do with this part of the spec. I don't think so. I believe it's part of making sure eveyone is on the same page and that it all works correctly.

http://www.hdmi.org/...6f50c86f565&f=3

I think before you can ask if DirecTV should be using EDID, we need to answer these two questions first.

  • Should DirecTV be following the HDMI specifications, or should they just bypass them?
  • By the same token, should all manufacturers follow the same set of specs so incompatibilities like this don't occur?
I’m wondering why the other manufacturers of 3D hardware aren’t following all the standards.

DirecTV uses EDID & VSI because that's what the spec calls for and not because the are imposing some restriction of their own.

So whose problem is this really? Is it DirecTV's for following the spec or the manufacturer of the AVR for not doing so? This could be a pretty interesting discussion. :grin:

My 2¢ FWIW.

Mike

Edited by Mike Bertelson, 03 August 2010 - 05:13 AM.

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#32 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 05:17 AM

The use of EDID and VSI is in compliance with the HDMI 1.4a specification. Does Hollywood anything to do with this part of the spec. I don't think so. I believe it's part of making sure eveyone is on the same page and that it all works correctly.

http://www.hdmi.org/...6f50c86f565&f=3

I think before you can ask if DirecTV should be using EDID, we need to answer these two questions first.

  • Should DirecTV be following the HDMI specifications, or should they just bypass them?
  • By the same token, should all manufacturers follow the same set of specs so incompatibilities like this don't occur?
I’m wondering why the other manufacturers of 3D hardware aren’t following all the standards.

DirecTV uses EDID & VSI because that's what the spec calls for and not because the are imposing some restriction of their own.

So whose problem is this really? Is it DirecTV's for following the spec or the manufacturer of the AVR for not doing so? This could be a pretty interesting discussion. :grin:

My 2¢ FWIW.

Mike

All very good points Mike.

I think DirecTV is doing the best they can to help promote a "standard" that simply is not yet established in the industry as whole. The HDMI 1.4a requirement is just the latest of attempts to do just that.
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#33 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 05:25 AM

BTW, I voted No but what I really mean is...

No, DirecTV is just following the current HDMI 1.4a standards for 3D Television as should everyone else

:grin:

Mike

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#34 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 06:06 AM

That's a little vague, but maybe that's right, and DirecTV is following specs, so when you can't get your AVR to work with DirecTV 3d channels, it's the AVR's fault. But why should I care whose fault it is? Am I an HDMI enforcement officer? I just want my equipment to work to do what I want, and DirecTV is blocking a TV signal in some cases, when there is no apparent point to it. It is just very irritating. Even supposing DirecTV is within its rights to frustrate some of its customers this way, does that mean they should do it?

Are you really trying to say it's DirecTV's fault that you can't watch 3D TV because your AVR isn't in compliance with the 3D HDMI standards, or are you saying the standards shouldn't be used?

Or, am I not understanding you correctly? :scratchin

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Edited by Mike Bertelson, 03 August 2010 - 06:26 AM.
my grammar be bad

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#35 OFFLINE   GregLee

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 06:33 AM

Are you really trying to say it's DirecTV's fault that you can't watch 3D TV because your AVR isn't following the 3D HDMI standards, or are you saying the standards shouldn't be used?

No, I didn't say anything remotely like that. I said I didn't care whose fault it was. I didn't say I can't watch 3D TV (I can). I didn't say my AVR isn't following the 3D HDMI standards (AFAIK it is).
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#36 OFFLINE   waltm

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 06:34 AM

Couldn't D* handle this like they did with unsupported MRV? We could enter a search code to enable output of the 3D channels and just not offer any tech support if things don't work out. Possibly on a different channel number such as 106-1 instead of 106 so tech support will know if you're trying to watch with the unsupported switch set to "on" if you happen to call in?

#37 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 06:44 AM

No, I didn't say anything remotely like that. I said I didn't care whose fault it was. I didn't say I can't watch 3D TV (I can). I didn't say my AVR isn't following the 3D HDMI standards (AFAIK it is).

I apologize for misunderstanding. :grin:

Mike

Edited by Mike Bertelson, 03 August 2010 - 07:26 AM.

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#38 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 06:46 AM

Couldn't D* handle this like they did with unsupported MRV? We could enter a search code to enable output of the 3D channels and just not offer any tech support if things don't work out. Possibly on a different channel number such as 106-1 instead of 106 so tech support will know if you're trying to watch with the unsupported switch set to "on" if you happen to call in?

I don't know for sure but that seems like it would take a whole lotta code that would need to be added to the firmware in order to have two different implementations of 3D.

If that’s the case I can’t see it happening. :shrug:

Mike

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#39 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 07:53 AM

Really? Apparently you must know something more about 3D than the manufacturers who produce the hardware or content providers.

No, I'm quite certain they are just as aware of the 3d formats that are already defined in the HDMI 1.4a spec as I am. Could new formats come out? Of course they could. But the ones that DirecTV is transmitting, and the ones that our equipment can handle, are already defined.

The technology in how 3D HDTV works in a number of Mitsubishi units is different than how it works in Panasonic displays....This is further evidenced by the changes/adapters required for some of the Mitz HDTV's to "work with" 3D receivers/DVRs.....whether you want to accept that or not is fine - but it comes from the industry itself.

Again, please try to stay on topic. This has nothing to do with 3d formats, nor the various methods different TVs use to create a 3d image. The fact that Mits DLP and Panny plasma TVs work differently is moot. They BOTH accept the same standard formats defined in the HDMI spec. The fact that older Mits TVs require an adapter for those formats is moot. The adapter accepts the same formats defined in the spec and used by DirecTV. The topic of this thread is about DirecTV's use of an EDID "white list". That is NOT part of the spec.

http://all3dtv.com/2...to-be-proposed/

That piece is over a year old. Since then, the 3d blu-ray standard has been adopted, and the HDMI 1.4a spec has been adopted. The latter being the only one we're concerned with here, because we're only talking about getting a signal from the DirecTV receiver to our equipment. Fail.

http://www.broadcast...3D_Adoption.php

Yes, there is a lack of standards in 3d glasses. But that has little to do with this topic. Fail.

http://paytvblog.ver...sings-from-ces/Another article that pre-dates the 1.4a spec. Fail.

http://www.etcenter....c_3D_primer.pdfAn interesting article on 3d perception, but nothing to do with getting the signal from the DVR to the TV. Fail.

In the case of 3D....what will happen when Texas Instruments or another manufacturer finally releases "glasses free" 3D? It's not a matter if IF, its a matter of WHEN.

I wouldn't expect that to make any difference. We're talking about getting the signal from the DVR to the TV. How it gets from the TV to our eyes is yet another unrelated topic.

There is 3d content available today, and hardware that can display it. DirecTV is carrying some of that content, but they aren't making it easy to watch it. THAT is the topic.
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#40 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 08:07 AM

The only real remedy in this situation is to use TOSLink for audio and run HR to HDMI to Converter to TV directly.


The only real remedy is for DirecTV to not be so limited and selective in what they choose to support and how, in regards to 3D. They really need to allow for capable equipment in these cases. There is no need for this EDID confusion.
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#41 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 08:10 AM

DirecTV uses EDID & VSI because that's what the spec calls for and not because the are imposing some restriction of their own.


I agree, and disagree. EDID is part of the 1.4 spec, but there's nothing in the spec about maintaining a separate manually updated white list.

VSI is a valid point. For those of us where the issue is due to including HDMI 1.3 components in the signal chain (an existing HDMI 1.3 receiver), VSI will cause a problem, because it can't reply that it's 3d capable (because technically, it's not. So I do understand your point about DirecTV just following the spec.

This simply comes down to whether DirecTV chooses to be customer friendly, or not. Following the hard line of the spec in itself suggests that you have to replace all the components in the signal chain to 1.4. But the fact remains that those formats used in broadcast 3d will work with 1.3 components just fine, as long as the TV (or an adapter connected to the TV) can understand the signal. It seems that all the other hardware makes understand this, and give the consumer an option to output the 3d signal anyway. It appears that DirecTV isn't as interested in the customer's needs as others may be. I STILL fail to see the downside to allowing a 3d signal even if their hardware can't confirm if the end device is 3d capable or not. If DirecTV is so interested in "going by the book", why didn't they do that with 24p? EDID info also contains valid timings for the display. Why rely on the customer to say "yes I can / no I can't view that format"?
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#42 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 08:15 AM

No, I'm quite certain they are just as aware of the 3d formats that are already defined in the HDMI 1.4a spec as I am.

...and those in the know also realize that the HDMI 1.4a "standard" just came out recently, and hasn't been adopted in most equipment yet....its too new. Only very new hardware supports it. :rolleyes:

Again, please try to stay on topic. This has nothing to do with 3d formats, nor the various methods different TVs use to create a 3d image.

Just because you don't understand it - that there are various methods 3D HDTV's used to support watching a 3D channel - doesn't make it "off topic". :rolleyes:

The fact that Mits DLP and Panny plasma TVs work differently is moot.

Really? :lol: Tell that to the thousands of folks who bought them and can't get them to function without adapters, firmware updates, or other modifications. (I'm not one of them incidently).

First you insist on standards, then in that latest statement you don't care if they are applied. You continue to contradict yourself.

They BOTH accept the same standard formats defined in the HDMI spec. The fact that older Mits TVs require an adapter for those formats is moot. The adapter accepts the same formats defined in the spec and used by DirecTV. The topic of this thread is about DirecTV's use of an EDID "white list". That is NOT part of the spec.

Apparently you just don't get it that the HDMI 1.4a spec is just one part of the capability to view 3D HD.

You also refuse to accept the fact that most hardware out there today doesn't support HDMI 1.4a. It's only out there since earlier in 2010. You must not also be aware that the DirecTV 3D HD channels function today without HDMI v1.4a....since all HR21 and newer HD DVRs can successfully be used for 3D HD viewing with DirecTV. Those feature ONLY earlier versions of HDMI connections, further demonstrating that HDMI 1.4a is NOT the Holy Grail "requirement" as you seem to insist.

It is clear you did not carefully read the 4 links provided on the topic, as those clearly demonstrate standards are neither well established nor industry adopted on any form of wide-spread basis.

Yet a number of folks already use DirecTV 3D HD (without HDMI 1.4a).

Therefore ON TOPIC and to the OP and POLL...relaxing the EDID restrictions is nothing more than a bandaid attempt to assist in adapting other inadaquate hardware - caused mostly by the slow rollout for and basic lack of 3D HD standards as a whole.

It's all new technology....and until true "standards are defined, accepted, and deployed in all equipment....the early adopter issues some have reported will continue.
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#43 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 08:22 AM

I agree, and disagree. EDID is part of the 1.4 spec, but there's nothing in the spec about maintaining a separate manually updated white list.

VSI is a valid point. For those of us where the issue is due to including HDMI 1.3 components in the signal chain (an existing HDMI 1.3 receiver), VSI will cause a problem, because it can't reply that it's 3d capable (because technically, it's not. So I do understand your point about DirecTV just following the spec.

This simply comes down to whether DirecTV chooses to be customer friendly, or not. Following the hard line of the spec in itself suggests that you have to replace all the components in the signal chain to 1.4. But the fact remains that those formats used in broadcast 3d will work with 1.3 components just fine, as long as the TV (or an adapter connected to the TV) can understand the signal. It seems that all the other hardware makes understand this, and give the consumer an option to output the 3d signal anyway. It appears that DirecTV isn't as interested in the customer's needs as others may be. I STILL fail to see the downside to allowing a 3d signal even if their hardware can't confirm if the end device is 3d capable or not. If DirecTV is so interested in "going by the book", why didn't they do that with 24p? EDID info also contains valid timings for the display. Why rely on the customer to say "yes I can / no I can't view that format"?


Ding, ding, ding! There we have it. The issue is DirecTV restrictions rather than component limitations. DirecTV should allow for more leeway in such a diverse and new technology. Your DirecTV receiver doesn't believe that you have fully capable 3D ready display? That's fine, but the customer should have the option of acknowledging that suggestion and attempting to display it anyway. If it works, great! If it doesn't...no harm done.

The Samsung 3D DLP's are just as capable as the Mitsubishi 3D DLP's. DirecTV could easily make this experience more customer friendly and I hope that they will at some point.
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#44 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 08:24 AM

True HDMI 1.4 is not required for 3D. See the Sony PS3 as an example. Those most necessary and currently needed features of 1.4 are available via 1.3.
DTV = Digital Television

#45 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 08:27 AM

BTW, I voted No but what I really mean is...

No, DirecTV is just following the current HDMI 1.4a standards for 3D Television as should everyone else

:grin:

Mike


Yet they use receivers with HDMI 1.3...
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#46 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 08:35 AM

VSI is a valid point. For those of us where the issue is due to including HDMI 1.3 components in the signal chain (an existing HDMI 1.3 receiver), VSI will cause a problem, because it can't reply that it's 3d capable (because technically, it's not. So I do understand your point about DirecTV just following the spec.


I'm pretty sure that this is the root of all of the problems and that it has little if anything to do with EDID.
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#47 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 08:38 AM

Yet they use receivers with HDMI 1.3...

Yup....supporting wider adoption and more "customer friendly" by eliminating a complete equipment refresh.
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#48 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 08:45 AM

Needless to say, the adoption and push for 3D has not been handled in as organized or smooth a manner as possible. That goes for just about every company involved. One and only one standard and delivery method should have been adopted before equipment was being marketed and sold. Support should have been built in for new equipment, equipment in the near future, and legacy support for perfectly capable Mitsubishi and Samsung DLP from the last couple of years. Countless companies (including Mitsubishi and Samsung) ran with and/or dropped their own ball. It will take a long time to sort out and if 3D fails entirely, that may be one of the reasons why.

I simply wish that DirecTV would have taken the same approach as Panasonic did with their 3D BD players...allow for both side by side and checkerboard formats.
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#49 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 08:58 AM

Needless to say, the adoption and push for 3D has not been handled in as organized or smooth a manner as possible. That goes for just about every company involved. One and only one standard and delivery method should have been adopted before equipment was being marketed and sold. Support should have been built in for new equipment, equipment in the near future, and legacy support for perfectly capable Mitsubishi and Samsung DLP from the last couple of years. Countless companies (including Mitsubishi and Samsung) ran with and/or dropped their own ball. It will take a long time to sort out and if 3D fails entirely, that may be one of the reasons why.

I simply wish that DirecTV would have taken the same approach as Panasonic did with their 3D BD players...allow for both side by side and checkerboard formats.

I'd say I'd have to agree with ALL your points....that last one was likely an issue of timing and having to make a go/no go choice at the time the settled on their launch plans.
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#50 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 09:05 AM

In a perfect world, there should be one standard, yes. However, getting all of the Industry big-wigs together to come up with a standard clearly wasn't a priority. Everyone wanted to be first so that their "standard" would win. These sorts of fights have been happening forever. I wonder how many early adopters were angered over VHS beating Beta, Blu-Ray beating HD-DVD. This is nothing new, just a fight to get your product out first and then a realization that interoperability is important to the consumer.

It's early still and unfortunately early adopter headaches enter the picture. I'm probably 4-5 years out from getting my first 3DTV and today's glitches will be long gone at that point with all sorts of new glitches being introduced into the system.
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