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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content?


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Poll: Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content? (143 member(s) have cast votes)

Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content?

  1. Yes, DirecTv should lessen the EDID restrictions for watching 3D content. (115 votes [80.42%])

    Percentage of vote: 80.42%

  2. No, the EDID restrictions imposed by DirecTv for watching 3D content is good. (28 votes [19.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.58%

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#21 OFFLINE   netraa

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 09:51 PM

Well, it seems that equipment suppliers have 2 choices.

1. they do what Directv has done, Here is a list, we WILL work with that list when you are connected the way we specify, we are adding additional equipment to that list that WILL work and that is where it is.

2. They do what some of the others have chosen to do, We do support 3d, your tv might work, your av might work everything might work, if it doesn't work, call the maker of the component that doesn't work or change it to something else that might work, but we don't know if that is going to work either. we do 3d but we don't guarantee anything with work with anything else in your system with our piece.


Directv has decided to go with what they can guarantee will work and save themselves the grief of potentially 18,000,000 people coming up with billions of combination of equipment to support.....

realistically, it's tens of thousands of sets with tens of thousands of possible combos of equipment with sets built on various stages of standards that are still evolving.

As Directv has shown they are going to go with a white list method instead of a black list method. For example the only official support of MRV being the Directv deca. will other methods work, yes, but if it breaks don't call us.

Why should Directv spend millions of dollars trying to make tens of thousands of one off setups work when the standards are going to be different in 6 months, and yet again in another 6 months.

I guess, my personal opinion is.... this is the price to pay for being on the bleeding edge. just ask the people out there that got EDTV's....

Is this the right thing to do... I don't know but as a tech, the 3d calls we get now are hard enough to solve, i don't want to be out on calls where i'm having to tear into your media room guessing what part of your system is the one that's breaking things.

it is their bat, ball, and field.....

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#22 OFFLINE   LarryFlowers

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 10:00 PM

My guess is that some who voted no did so simply because they perceived the thread as an attack against DirecTv and its current policy. Some members of DBS.talk are very protective of DirecTv to an extent that some may say makes them yes men. This thread is only intended to foster communication, gather information, and for healthy debate.

Interesting enough, the initial no votes came in one big wave all at once and the rest of the votes in the poll have taken place at a much slower pace.


I am not sure I can agree with this conclusion. I see another side to this. I have always read your posts regarding the 3D issue.

Some facts:
1. You own a TV that does not support the 3D system DirecTV is using.
2. You have repeatedly made the point that you can't believe they did this, ignoring the fact that the existence of multiple competing 3D standards is not DirecTV's fault.
3. You have apparently found some adaptive technology that allows you to get around this problem and DirecTV is supposed to adjust their system to accomodate this type of "rig"?

One of the reasons I have been so vocal in my oposition to this whole 3D mess is just what we have here.

Before anyone did anything with 3D, they should have established one system, one set of standards that all manufacturers complied with.

Something else you should know. Some gentlemen who have been my friends for over 25 years are in the Home Theater business. They will tell you point blank that the audio companies have turned HDMI switching into one of the biggest messes they have ever experienced. Even the most high end manufacturers have failed utterly in compliance with specifications. These guys have no DirecTV axe to grind... they won't even install sat systems.. but they put the blame squarely where it belongs... on the audio manufacturers heads.
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#23 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 10:07 PM

Well, it seems that equipment suppliers have 2 choices.

1. they do what Directv has done, Here is a list, we WILL work with that list when you are connected the way we specify, we are adding additional equipment to that list that WILL work and that is where it is.

2. They do what some of the others have chosen to do, We do support 3d, your tv might work, your av might work everything might work, if it doesn't work, call the maker of the component that doesn't work or change it to something else that might work, but we don't know if that is going to work either. we do 3d but we don't guarantee anything with work with anything else in your system with our piece.


Directv has decided to go with what they can guarantee will work and save themselves the grief of potentially 18,000,000 people coming up with billions of combination of equipment to support.....

realistically, it's tens of thousands of sets with tens of thousands of possible combos of equipment with sets built on various stages of standards that are still evolving.

As Directv has shown they are going to go with a white list method instead of a black list method. For example the only official support of MRV being the Directv deca. will other methods work, yes, but if it breaks don't call us.

Why should Directv spend millions of dollars trying to make tens of thousands of one off setups work when the standards are going to be different in 6 months, and yet again in another 6 months.

I guess, my personal opinion is.... this is the price to pay for being on the bleeding edge. just ask the people out there that got EDTV's....

Is this the right thing to do... I don't know but as a tech, the 3d calls we get now are hard enough to solve, i don't want to be out on calls where i'm having to tear into your media room guessing what part of your system is the one that's breaking things.

it is their bat, ball, and field.....


My guess is that the current system would cause you to receive more calls.

Customer: Hey, I spent thousands on a 3D HDTV, a 3D A/V Receiver, and I can't watch 3D.

Tech: Sir, we only support 3D from your receiver to your 3D HDTV.

Customer: What do they sell 3D receivers for then?

Tech: Accept your EDID fate like a man and be happy.

Customer: Why can some of my neighbors get a funny picture on their non 3D HDTVs and I get nothing but a message telling me my 3D equipment can't handle 3D.

Tech: A glitch in the Matrix, sir.

Customer: This is glitching ridiculous.

#24 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 10:43 PM

I am not sure I can agree with this conclusion. I see another side to this. I have always read your posts regarding the 3D issue.

Some facts:
1. You own a TV that does not support the 3D system DirecTV is using.
2. You have repeatedly made the point that you can't believe they did this, ignoring the fact that the existence of multiple competing 3D standards is not DirecTV's fault.
3. You have apparently found some adaptive technology that allows you to get around this problem and DirecTV is supposed to adjust their system to accomodate this type of "rig"?

One of the reasons I have been so vocal in my oposition to this whole 3D mess is just what we have here.

Before anyone did anything with 3D, they should have established one system, one set of standards that all manufacturers complied with.

Something else you should know. Some gentlemen who have been my friends for over 25 years are in the Home Theater business. They will tell you point blank that the audio companies have turned HDMI switching into one of the biggest messes they have ever experienced. Even the most high end manufacturers have failed utterly in compliance with specifications. These guys have no DirecTV axe to grind... they won't even install sat systems.. but they put the blame squarely where it belongs... on the audio manufacturers heads.


Larry,

Yes, I have a vested interest in getting DirecTv to improve their restrictive EDID restrictions like many other 3D adopters.

The 3D picture from DirecTv on my HDTV has been stunning when it worked although why they keep on showing so much live music on N3D is beyond me.

I do agree with you regarding HDMI and some of the problems it can cause. However, HDMI on my equipment does what it is suppose to do over 90 percent of the time.

For anyone who is curious, my complete 3D setup is listed here:

http://www.avsforum....d.php?t=1265912

The EDID restrictions imposed by DirecTv are clearly affecting a lot more set ups than just mine. I would hope that DirecTv would have a vested interest in making 3D as compatible with as many of its customers equipment as possible. I believe that is all that I am asking for as well as others.

I stand by my earlier comments.

#25 ONLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:47 AM

I think the biggest problem here has nothing to do with hdcp or anything else, its more a lack of true conformity among all manufacturers, and the fact that this technology is by all real standards, new.. Come talk to me in 5 years, when it might have begun to show real market penetration in view-ship, and all manufactures will have had 2 or 3 real generational changes in their lineups of equipment, then see how many issues of this nature we have.

Anyone else remember hop the first 2 to 3+ generations of hd sets only worked with their specific hd decoder boxes and not other manufacturers? Same thing here...

#26 OFFLINE   Lee L

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 03:44 AM

I think the biggest problem here has nothing to do with hdcp or anything else, its more a lack of true conformity among all manufacturers, and the fact that this technology is by all real standards, new.. Come talk to me in 5 years, when it might have begun to show real market penetration in view-ship, and all manufactures will have had 2 or 3 real generational changes in their lineups of equipment, then see how many issues of this nature we have.

Anyone else remember hop the first 2 to 3+ generations of hd sets only worked with their specific hd decoder boxes and not other manufacturers? Same thing here...


I certainly don't remember that. When was it exactly that there were special converter boxes? Pretty much every box I have seen (and I started seriously researching HDTV in 2000 and bought an HDTV in early 2001) had component or DB15 out and every TV accepted that. It was only when DVI and HDMI started up that there began to be incompatibilities between sets and boxes.

As far as 3D. If you wait 5 years, no one will care because it is a gimmick that Hollywood is already starting to see reduced returns from. No content = no or very little home 3D. Now, if suddenly every movie is made like Avatar, things might be different, but since only someone like Cameron wants to spend that kind of money, the "3D" movies made will continue to not be much of a value add for moviegoers.


DirecTV, please don't make me have to go back to watching March Madness in standard Def! Oh, and the usual begging for AMC and BBC America. You are so close to actually being the HD Leader.

#27 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 04:18 AM

Just to be clear here, this has NOTHING to do with standards.

It has everything to do with standards.

Even the manufacturer reps at CES this year stated this. They indicated the 3D tech market was still quite new, and that "standards were being established over time, but not yet in place." That came from a senior Panasonic 3D guru there, and was confirmed in the Samsung booth as well.

Without tech standards, you get the same mess that is out there right now with HDMI changes....equipment mismatch problems.
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#28 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 04:23 AM

[quote name='inkahauts']I think the biggest problem here has nothing to do with hdcp or anything else, its more a lack of true conformity among all manufacturers, and the fact that this technology is by all real standards, new..[/QUOTE]
But the issue here isn't a problem of equipment not working. As has been proven by those who use an EDID spoofer to trick the receiver into thinking it's directly connected to something on their list, the equipment works fine. The problem is, DirecTV isn't even letting you tune to a channel unless they detect you have certain things connected a certain way. And that way they want it essentially means you can't have a high end surround setup involved.
[quote name='netraa']Why should Directv spend millions of dollars trying to make tens of thousands of one off setups work when the standards are going to be different in 6 months, and yet again in another 6 months.[/QUOTE]
What makes you think the standards are changing? Who's asking them to spend millions of dollars? All we want is to allow those of us with working 3d setups to watch 3d content. It would be a lot less costly for them to not try and micromanage a list of setups they believe will work, as opposed to just letting us turn it on. Just like they do with 24p. They didn't try to make up a list of EDID numbers of equipment they know works with 24p, they just have a system that let's you enable it by simply confirming that you can see the image if that mode is turned on.
[/quote]As Directv has shown they are going to go with a white list method instead of a black list method.[/quote]
And a perfect example of a problem with a white list is the 2010 Mitsubishis. They require that those sets have to have the 3d adapter before they'll let you watch a 3d channel, but the 2010 models don't need the adapter. They have that functionality built in.
[quote]For example the only official support of MRV being the Directv deca. will other methods work, yes, but if it breaks don't call us.[/quote]
And if that was how it worked, I'd be perfectly happy. But they just flat won't let you tune to a 3d channel unless you have something on their list, connected the way they want it connected.

[quote name='LarryFlowers']Some facts:
1. You own a TV that does not support the 3D system DirecTV is using.
2. You have repeatedly made the point that you can't believe they did this, ignoring the fact that the existence of multiple competing 3D standards is not DirecTV's fault.
3. You have apparently found some adaptive technology that allows you to get around this problem and DirecTV is supposed to adjust their system to accomodate this type of "rig"?[/quote]
1. I do. But they apparently don't want me to enjoy 3d with surround sound.
2. There aren't multiple competing 3d standards. The standards for both broadcast and blu-ray have been set. We just want them to allow our equipment that conforms to these standards to be used.
3. We just want them to get out of the business of second-guessing what will and won't work, and let watch 3d on equipment that DOES work.
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#29 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 04:26 AM

It has everything to do with standards.


This particular problem has nothing to do with standards. Stop trying to makek this into something it's not. We have equipment that meets the 3d broadcast standards, and works with everything else that conforms to them.
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#30 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 04:52 AM

This particular problem has nothing to do with standards. Stop trying to make this into something it's not. We have equipment that meets the 3d broadcast standards, and works with everything else that conforms to them.

Really? Apparently you must know something more about 3D than the manufacturers who produce the hardware or content providers.

THEY indicate there are only a very few standards in 3D transmission and more important...image presentation at this time, and THEY are all working toward establishing standards.

In some cases....this will prompt display "retrofits" (adapters) to continue to function with updated 3D that meets the latest "standards". Today, the equipment may work....but there are few standards. The technology in how 3D HDTV works in a number of Mitsubishi units is different than how it works in Panasonic displays....This is further evidenced by the changes/adapters required for some of the Mitz HDTV's to "work with" 3D receivers/DVRs.....whether you want to accept that or not is fine - but it comes from the industry itself.

Here are just a few pieces that discuss the lack of establishing standards in 3D technology:

http://all3dtv.com/2...to-be-proposed/

http://www.broadcast...3D_Adoption.php

http://paytvblog.ver...sings-from-ces/

http://www.etcenter....c_3D_primer.pdf

What makes you think the standards are changing? Who's asking them to spend millions of dollars? All we want is to allow those of us with working 3d setups to watch 3d content.

The technology is new, and will evolve/change. It's happened over and over with other "new" offerings.

Early adopters always run the risk of getting equipment that may not be "up to speed" with later standards...Component, DVI, HDMI 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.4a just to name a few examples of evolution. It happens. It also means myriads of equipment are sold without fulfilling the "latest and greatest.

In the case of 3D....what will happen when Texas Instruments or another manufacturer finally releases "glasses free" 3D? It's not a matter if IF, its a matter of WHEN.

Again....saw the prototype technology at CES...and its going to have a place in the market....after all....what's the #1 "issue" folks have about 3D adoption...the glasses. What happens when those are no longer needed? More changes.

Bottom line - 3D is in its infancy, and will "grow up". That will include changes.
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#31 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 05:08 AM

I voted "good" because I don't want D* sued by Hollywood studios.

The use of EDID and VSI is in compliance with the HDMI 1.4a specification. Does Hollywood anything to do with this part of the spec. I don't think so. I believe it's part of making sure eveyone is on the same page and that it all works correctly.

http://www.hdmi.org/...6f50c86f565&f=3

I think before you can ask if DirecTV should be using EDID, we need to answer these two questions first.

  • Should DirecTV be following the HDMI specifications, or should they just bypass them?
  • By the same token, should all manufacturers follow the same set of specs so incompatibilities like this don't occur?
I’m wondering why the other manufacturers of 3D hardware aren’t following all the standards.

DirecTV uses EDID & VSI because that's what the spec calls for and not because the are imposing some restriction of their own.

So whose problem is this really? Is it DirecTV's for following the spec or the manufacturer of the AVR for not doing so? This could be a pretty interesting discussion. :grin:

My 2¢ FWIW.

Mike

Edited by Mike Bertelson, 03 August 2010 - 05:13 AM.

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#32 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 05:17 AM

The use of EDID and VSI is in compliance with the HDMI 1.4a specification. Does Hollywood anything to do with this part of the spec. I don't think so. I believe it's part of making sure eveyone is on the same page and that it all works correctly.

http://www.hdmi.org/...6f50c86f565&f=3

I think before you can ask if DirecTV should be using EDID, we need to answer these two questions first.

  • Should DirecTV be following the HDMI specifications, or should they just bypass them?
  • By the same token, should all manufacturers follow the same set of specs so incompatibilities like this don't occur?
I’m wondering why the other manufacturers of 3D hardware aren’t following all the standards.

DirecTV uses EDID & VSI because that's what the spec calls for and not because the are imposing some restriction of their own.

So whose problem is this really? Is it DirecTV's for following the spec or the manufacturer of the AVR for not doing so? This could be a pretty interesting discussion. :grin:

My 2¢ FWIW.

Mike

All very good points Mike.

I think DirecTV is doing the best they can to help promote a "standard" that simply is not yet established in the industry as whole. The HDMI 1.4a requirement is just the latest of attempts to do just that.
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#33 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 05:25 AM

BTW, I voted No but what I really mean is...

No, DirecTV is just following the current HDMI 1.4a standards for 3D Television as should everyone else

:grin:

Mike

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#34 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 06:06 AM

That's a little vague, but maybe that's right, and DirecTV is following specs, so when you can't get your AVR to work with DirecTV 3d channels, it's the AVR's fault. But why should I care whose fault it is? Am I an HDMI enforcement officer? I just want my equipment to work to do what I want, and DirecTV is blocking a TV signal in some cases, when there is no apparent point to it. It is just very irritating. Even supposing DirecTV is within its rights to frustrate some of its customers this way, does that mean they should do it?

Are you really trying to say it's DirecTV's fault that you can't watch 3D TV because your AVR isn't in compliance with the 3D HDMI standards, or are you saying the standards shouldn't be used?

Or, am I not understanding you correctly? :scratchin

Mike

Edited by Mike Bertelson, 03 August 2010 - 06:26 AM.
my grammar be bad

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Since it costs 2.4¢ to produce a penny, my 2¢ worth is really 4.8¢ worth.  That 4.8¢ is my own and not the 4.8¢ of DIRECTV, Dish, or anyone else for that matter.


#35 OFFLINE   GregLee

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 06:33 AM

Are you really trying to say it's DirecTV's fault that you can't watch 3D TV because your AVR isn't following the 3D HDMI standards, or are you saying the standards shouldn't be used?

No, I didn't say anything remotely like that. I said I didn't care whose fault it was. I didn't say I can't watch 3D TV (I can). I didn't say my AVR isn't following the 3D HDMI standards (AFAIK it is).
Greg

#36 OFFLINE   waltm

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 06:34 AM

Couldn't D* handle this like they did with unsupported MRV? We could enter a search code to enable output of the 3D channels and just not offer any tech support if things don't work out. Possibly on a different channel number such as 106-1 instead of 106 so tech support will know if you're trying to watch with the unsupported switch set to "on" if you happen to call in?

#37 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 06:44 AM

No, I didn't say anything remotely like that. I said I didn't care whose fault it was. I didn't say I can't watch 3D TV (I can). I didn't say my AVR isn't following the 3D HDMI standards (AFAIK it is).

I apologize for misunderstanding. :grin:

Mike

Edited by Mike Bertelson, 03 August 2010 - 07:26 AM.

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Since it costs 2.4¢ to produce a penny, my 2¢ worth is really 4.8¢ worth.  That 4.8¢ is my own and not the 4.8¢ of DIRECTV, Dish, or anyone else for that matter.


#38 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 06:46 AM

Couldn't D* handle this like they did with unsupported MRV? We could enter a search code to enable output of the 3D channels and just not offer any tech support if things don't work out. Possibly on a different channel number such as 106-1 instead of 106 so tech support will know if you're trying to watch with the unsupported switch set to "on" if you happen to call in?

I don't know for sure but that seems like it would take a whole lotta code that would need to be added to the firmware in order to have two different implementations of 3D.

If that’s the case I can’t see it happening. :shrug:

Mike

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Since it costs 2.4¢ to produce a penny, my 2¢ worth is really 4.8¢ worth.  That 4.8¢ is my own and not the 4.8¢ of DIRECTV, Dish, or anyone else for that matter.


#39 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 07:53 AM

Really? Apparently you must know something more about 3D than the manufacturers who produce the hardware or content providers.

No, I'm quite certain they are just as aware of the 3d formats that are already defined in the HDMI 1.4a spec as I am. Could new formats come out? Of course they could. But the ones that DirecTV is transmitting, and the ones that our equipment can handle, are already defined.

The technology in how 3D HDTV works in a number of Mitsubishi units is different than how it works in Panasonic displays....This is further evidenced by the changes/adapters required for some of the Mitz HDTV's to "work with" 3D receivers/DVRs.....whether you want to accept that or not is fine - but it comes from the industry itself.

Again, please try to stay on topic. This has nothing to do with 3d formats, nor the various methods different TVs use to create a 3d image. The fact that Mits DLP and Panny plasma TVs work differently is moot. They BOTH accept the same standard formats defined in the HDMI spec. The fact that older Mits TVs require an adapter for those formats is moot. The adapter accepts the same formats defined in the spec and used by DirecTV. The topic of this thread is about DirecTV's use of an EDID "white list". That is NOT part of the spec.

http://all3dtv.com/2...to-be-proposed/

That piece is over a year old. Since then, the 3d blu-ray standard has been adopted, and the HDMI 1.4a spec has been adopted. The latter being the only one we're concerned with here, because we're only talking about getting a signal from the DirecTV receiver to our equipment. Fail.

http://www.broadcast...3D_Adoption.php

Yes, there is a lack of standards in 3d glasses. But that has little to do with this topic. Fail.

http://paytvblog.ver...sings-from-ces/Another article that pre-dates the 1.4a spec. Fail.

http://www.etcenter....c_3D_primer.pdfAn interesting article on 3d perception, but nothing to do with getting the signal from the DVR to the TV. Fail.

In the case of 3D....what will happen when Texas Instruments or another manufacturer finally releases "glasses free" 3D? It's not a matter if IF, its a matter of WHEN.

I wouldn't expect that to make any difference. We're talking about getting the signal from the DVR to the TV. How it gets from the TV to our eyes is yet another unrelated topic.

There is 3d content available today, and hardware that can display it. DirecTV is carrying some of that content, but they aren't making it easy to watch it. THAT is the topic.
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#40 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 08:07 AM

The only real remedy in this situation is to use TOSLink for audio and run HR to HDMI to Converter to TV directly.


The only real remedy is for DirecTV to not be so limited and selective in what they choose to support and how, in regards to 3D. They really need to allow for capable equipment in these cases. There is no need for this EDID confusion.
DTV = Digital Television




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