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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content?


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Poll: Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content? (143 member(s) have cast votes)

Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content?

  1. Yes, DirecTv should lessen the EDID restrictions for watching 3D content. (115 votes [80.42%])

    Percentage of vote: 80.42%

  2. No, the EDID restrictions imposed by DirecTv for watching 3D content is good. (28 votes [19.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.58%

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#51 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 09:07 AM

Just because you don't understand it - that there are various methods 3D HDTV's used to support watching a 3D channel - doesn't make it "off topic". :rolleyes:

I apparently at least understand it better than you. If you care to discuss it in a separate thread about the topic, perhaps I can enlighten you. Again, HOW a TV creates a 3d image is COMPLETELY off topic to this thread. A DLP and an LCD create images in very different ways. But if they can both accept a 1080p/24 signal, how it gets from the DVR to the TV is exactly the same.

Really? :lol: Tell that to the thousands of folks who bought them and can't get them to function without adapters, firmware updates, or other modifications. (I'm not one of them incidently).

Again, completely off-topic. I've created a separate thread in an appropriate forum if you'd like to continue this.

Apparently you just don't get it that the HDMI 1.4a spec is just one part of the capability to view 3D HD.

And the ONLY part that is relevant to getting the signal from the DVR to the display.

You also refuse to accept the fact that most hardware out there today doesn't support HDMI 1.4a. It's only out there since earlier in 2010.

Apparently you haven't read all my posts.

You must not also be aware that the DirecTV 3D HD channels function today without HDMI v1.4a....since all HR21 and newer HD DVRs can successfully be used for 3D HD viewing with DirecTV.

Yet they are using the 1.4 spec to define how 3d signals are communicated over HDMI.

Those feature ONLY earlier versions of HDMI connections, further demonstrating that HDMI 1.4a is NOT the Holy Grail "requirement" as you seem to insist.

Again, you aren't reading my posts. I am ALL FOR allowing the signal to transmit over a 1.3 connection. But Doug's post suggested that it's the requirement of VSI that is the reason they aren't allowing 3d over 1.3 devices. VSI is part of 1.4a.

Therefore ON TOPIC and to the OP and POLL...relaxing the EDID restrictions is nothing more than a bandaid attempt to assist in adapting other inadaquate hardware

Just to be clear, the EDID restrictions are a DirecTV thing, not something others are doing. It would be more correct to call the EDID white list a bandaid, rather than removing it being a bandaid. I fail to see how you can consider hardware "inadequate" when we are talking about allowing legit 3d capable displays to receive the 3d signal.
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#52 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 09:11 AM

Yup....supporting wider adoption and more "customer friendly" by eliminating a complete equipment refresh.

So in other words, they don't want to have to upgrade THEIR hardware when they know perfectly well that for the types of signals they are dealing with, 1.3 is perfectly capable. But when it comes to OUR hardware, we need to be fully 1.4 compliant throughout the chain, or they won't turn on the signal. :rolleyes:
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#53 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 09:16 AM

I simply wish that DirecTV would have taken the same approach as Panasonic did with their 3D BD players...allow for both side by side and checkerboard formats.


Honestly, I can understand them not supporting checkerboard. Checkerboard has not won adoption. Besides, I doubt the hardware is powerful enough to convert from one to another, and if they have to choose a format to encode in, it makes sense to use the formats that are already being adopted by the industry.

But again, regardless of what format they choose, it's moot if they won't even allow the output to be enabled.
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#54 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 09:44 AM

EDID & VSI are apparently an issue for equipment that hasn’t implemented all of the 3D portion of the HDMI 1.4a standards.

What’s the harm in giving the user the option of allowing the 3D signal to pass or eliminating EDID & VSI?

IIUC, this would require a rewrite of the current firmware to allow the user more options...which probably requires rewriting of a substantial portion of the modules that handle 3D.

What about other parts of the 3D portion of the HDMI 1.4a standards that could affect our ability to view 3D content? Who is going to scrub the current standards and the coming updates to make sure they don’t implement anything that affects our 3D watching?

It doesn’t really seem that easy to do. How does anyone decide which parts of the standards to implement, which to ignore, and which to give the viewer the option to ignore?

I think the harm lies in all the new coding of the 3D modules in the firmware that would be required to accomplish any of this.

I don’t think DirecTV has imposed anything on us. Further, I don’t think DirecTV should lessen the requirements just because other manufactures are not implementing the same standards.

Not to mention that these standards are in their infancy. IMHO, if DirecTV follows the standards as they’re currently written, then they’ll have a leg up when those standards become more cohesive.

Not to mention, again, that Hitachi, Panasonic, Philips, Silicon Image, Sony, Technicolor, and Toshiba are all onboard with this implementation (see the cover page & credits for the link in my previous post) as laid out in the HDMI 1.4a specification.

All of this to say that I believe that EDID & VSI shouldn’t be removed/ignored until the standards becomes more solidified. IMO, until then they should stick to the specs as they’re laid out.

My 2¢ FWIW. :grin:

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#55 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 09:59 AM

So in other words, they don't want to have to upgrade THEIR hardware when they know perfectly well that for the types of signals they are dealing with, 1.3 is perfectly capable. But when it comes to OUR hardware, we need to be fully 1.4 compliant throughout the chain, or they won't turn on the signal. :rolleyes:

Other than you in that post, nobody said that. :rolleyes:

Yes....they chose to promote and delivery 3D HD based on their existing equipment (which by the way in NOT HDM1.3 either). That required the least change to the end user period.
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#56 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 10:10 AM

So in other words, they don't want to have to upgrade THEIR hardware when they know perfectly well that for the types of signals they are dealing with, 1.3 is perfectly capable. But when it comes to OUR hardware, we need to be fully 1.4 compliant throughout the chain, or they won't turn on the signal. :rolleyes:

IIRC, 1.4 lays out the specs for 3D over HDMI. Further, 1.4 has the same bandwidth requirements as 1.3 and there are no addition hardware requirements.

The bandwidth/capability requirements are nearly identical. 1.3 devices should be able to handle full 1080p 3D as laid out in the 1.4 spec. Therefore, if you're 1.3 compliant then you're 1.4 compliant...I think. :grin:

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#57 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 10:22 AM

IIRC, 1.4 lays out the specs for 3D over HDMI. Further, 1.4 has the same bandwidth requirements as 1.3 and there are no addition hardware requirements.

The bandwidth/capability requirements are nearly identical. 1.3 devices should be able to handle full 1080p 3D as laid out in the 1.4 spec. Therefore, if you're 1.3 compliant then you're 1.4 compliant...I think. :grin:

Mike


That is basically my understanding as well. The additional features of 1.4 over 1.3 deal more with future tech than current tech and don't impact current 3D capabilities.

Edited by Hoosier205, 03 August 2010 - 10:50 AM.

DTV = Digital Television

#58 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 10:37 AM

OK .. I just found the HDMI 3D documentation for 1.4a. I think I see where the problem is and why both the AVR and DIRECTV are saying that they are correct.

You can find the spec here (need to give name/email if you want to download):
http://www.hdmi.org/...cification.aspx

This has to be due to the VSI. Namely, the transmission of the VSI is optional UNLESS the source device outputs a signal defined in section 8.2.3.

The AVR MFG is likely not passing this frame through to the TV at all. So there becomes a disconnect on determining support. So as MicroBeta suggests .. is DIRECTV forcing the standard wrong or is the AVR NOT enforcing the standard wrong.
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#59 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 10:38 AM

That is basically my understanding as well. The additional features of 1.4 over 1.4 deal more with future tech than current tech and don't impact current 3D capabilities.


It seems to me that the "3D" portion of the 1.4a spec have everything to do with the way 3D is packaged and delivered.
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#60 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:26 AM

The AVR MFG is likely not passing this frame through to the TV at all. So there becomes a disconnect on determining support. So as MicroBeta suggests .. is DIRECTV forcing the standard wrong or is the AVR NOT enforcing the standard wrong.


Well, I think the answer is: neither. :grin: There are two separate cases: 1.3 AVRs and 1.4 AVRs. VSI is not part of 1.3. So it's not that 1.3 AVRs are handling it wrong. It's just not part of their spec. As I said before, 1.3 AVRs will cause a problem, because they can't reply that they are 3d capable. That's why I said it's an issue of how customer friendly they want to be. Virtually every other manufacturer with a 3d source allows a workaround, so that people with 1.3 devices aren't left out in the cold.

The case with 1.4 receivers is completely different. I have seen posts going both ways on 1.4 receivers: some work, and some don't. Just like some 1.3 AVRs work, and some don't. In the case of 1.3 AVRs, that's simple to explain: some AVRs are mere switches. They don't process the signal. In that case, the DVR will essentially just see whatever is behind the AVR. But higher end models provide scaling and other functions that require the AVR to process the signal. Now, if the situation with DirecTV receivers on 1.4 AVRs is the same, then that would suggest that DirecTV is indeed doing an EDIE white list rather than depending on using VSI.

But either way, it is not accommodating to customers.
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#61 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:36 AM

...and what happens when previous HD DVRs have an HDMI version prior to v1.3.....???
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#62 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:37 AM

What’s the harm in giving the user the option of allowing the 3D signal to pass or eliminating EDID & VSI?

IIUC, this would require a rewrite of the current firmware to allow the user more options...which probably requires rewriting of a substantial portion of the modules that handle 3D.

Is this based on any specific knowledge of their firmware structure? If so, I'd be interested in learning more. Obviously, they had to re-write it just to put 3d in there to start with. 3d is new. VSI is new. It apparently wasn't a difficult thing to do for other manufacturers.

I don’t think DirecTV has imposed anything on us. Further, I don’t think DirecTV should lessen the requirements just because other manufactures are not implementing the same standards.

Well, no, they should do it because they are interested in providing a solution that has their customer's best interests in mind. The other manufacturers are only relevant as proof that it can be accomplished, apparently easy enough that virtually all of them are able to work something out.
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#63 OFFLINE   jacmyoung

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:45 AM

I wonder how many who voted actually have or are watching 3D, whether on DirecTV or other sources such as Bluray?

It is a common frustration among 3D owners that DirecTV unnecessarily blocks it's 3D signals on many setups when they do 3D just fine.

I almost bought a 3D projector until I learned DirecTV would block the 3D even though the PJ uses the same 3D format, except it is not on the "list".

Let the 3D channels through, If my setup cannot view them properly, I can call the TV manufacture.

#64 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:59 AM

Now, if the situation with DirecTV receivers on 1.4 AVRs is the same, then that would suggest that DirecTV is indeed doing an EDIE white list rather than depending on using VSI.


Wait, my apologies, I knew the answer to this going in to this thread, but got sidetracked and forgot. DirecTV has to be doing an EDID white list. Here's one example of someone using an HDMI Detective to "spoof" the DVR into thinking it's connected to a TV on "their list". The HDMI Detective is a 1.3 device, and I'm not aware of any updates to it to make it handle VSI info. The TV he has can actually handle the formats that DirecTV outputs, but DirecTV seems to think it needs the 3d adapter like the older models do. So he had to go off and buy a $100 device to "trick" the DVR into thinking his TV could do something it already could do.

So this doesn't appear to have anything to do with VSI, or DirecTV following spec. They simply came up with this goofball idea to enable 3d based on their list of what they think can handle a 3d signal.
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#65 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:00 PM

Well, I think the answer is: neither. :grin: There are two separate cases: 1.3 AVRs and 1.4 AVRs. VSI is not part of 1.3. So it's not that 1.3 AVRs are handling it wrong. It's just not part of their spec. As I said before, 1.3 AVRs will cause a problem, because they can't reply that they are 3d capable. That's why I said it's an issue of how customer friendly they want to be. Virtually every other manufacturer with a 3d source allows a workaround, so that people with 1.3 devices aren't left out in the cold.

The case with 1.4 receivers is completely different. I have seen posts going both ways on 1.4 receivers: some work, and some don't. Just like some 1.3 AVRs work, and some don't. In the case of 1.3 AVRs, that's simple to explain: some AVRs are mere switches. They don't process the signal. In that case, the DVR will essentially just see whatever is behind the AVR. But higher end models provide scaling and other functions that require the AVR to process the signal. Now, if the situation with DirecTV receivers on 1.4 AVRs is the same, then that would suggest that DirecTV is indeed doing an EDIE white list rather than depending on using VSI.

But either way, it is not accommodating to customers.

Except for MicroHDMI I don’t think there is any differences in hardware between 1.3 and 1.4. So, and IIUC, for the purposes of 3D TV, 1.3 is just as good as 1.4. Of course I’ve been wrong before. :grin:

Is this based on any specific knowledge of their firmware structure? If so, I'd be interested in learning more. Obviously, they had to re-write it just to put 3d in there to start with. 3d is new. VSI is new. It apparently wasn't a difficult thing to do for other manufacturers.


Well, no, they should do it because they are interested in providing a solution that has their customer's best interests in mind. The other manufacturers are only relevant as proof that it can be accomplished, apparently easy enough that virtually all of them are able to work something out.

If I understand correctly, meaning based on my own experience programming. Beyond that I have no specific knowledge about how DirecTV’s receivers are programmed. However, there are different versions for each receiver, as well as different manufacturers so it’s isn’t a matter of changing one firmware version but rather...what, half a dozen or more? :shrug:

I know that I've never found it an easy thing to restructure how a program flows and how it interacts with the user. In my experience it always involves much more then you think it might....like I said, I've been wrong before. ;)

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#66 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:14 PM

Except for MicroHDMI I don’t think there is any differences in hardware between 1.3 and 1.4. So, and IIUC, for the purposes of 3D TV, 1.3 is just as good as 1.4. Of course I’ve been wrong before. :grin:


I'm pretty sure some of the added functionality of 1.4 requires new hardware, such as ethernet over HDMI. But I agree, for the most part, 3d works over 1.3, as evidenced by people using 3d sources (other than DirecTV of course) with 1.3 gear. The exception may be 3d Blu-ray... as opposed to the formats being used in broadcast, the frame-packed 3d 1080p format does appear a little different compared to a standard 1080p signal, as at least some AVRs seem to have difficulty extracting HD audio out of it. But side by side and top/bottom look just like a standard 2d signal (plus some extra header info), and seem to pass through 1.3 gear just fine.
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#67 OFFLINE   GregLee

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:18 PM

They simply came up with this goofball idea to enable 3d based on their list of what they think can handle a 3d signal.

If you mean a list of specific models, then no, I don't think that is what is being done. My previous TV was a 2009 Samsung model which could in fact not display DirecTV's 3d signal in 3d, but my HR24 (connected through my AVR) decided it was 3d capable, and sent it video, which I could view as two side by side frames. To make a mistake like that, it seems the HR24 must be looking at capabilities, not specific models.
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#68 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:21 PM

From About.com:Home Theater:

HDMI 1.3a - In addition to the above audio improvements, HDMI 1.3 and 1.3a increase the amount of video bandwidth that can be transferred from a source to a display. This means, that in addition to the standard 24-bit color depth we are used to, HDMI 1.3 and 1.3a have the ability to transfer color depths up to 48-bits, and can accommodate resolutions much higher than the 1080p resolution standard that is in use today.

HDMI 1.4 - HDMI version 1.4 adds practical enhancements for HDMI connectivity. If home theater components, such as HDTVs, Blu-ray Disc players, and Home Theater Receivers, are HDMI 1.4 enabled, one or more of the following features can be implemented:

1. HDMI Ethernet Channel: This adds internet and home network connectivity to HDMI. In other words, both Ethernet and HDMI functions are available within a single cable connection.

2. Audio Return Channel: This may be the most practical application of HDMI 1.4. What this feature provides is a single HDMI connection between a TV and a home theater receiver that can not only pass audio/video signals from the receiver to the TV, but also pass audio originating from the TV's tuner to the receiver. In other words, when listening to audio accessed by the TV's tuner, you don't need a separate audio connection going from the TV to the home theater receiver.

3. 3D Over HDMI: HDMI 1.4 is designed to accommodate 3D Blu-ray Disc standards, with the capacity of passing two simultaneous 1080p signals using one connection. NOTE: An update (HDMI 1.4a) also incorporates additional 3D TV Broadcast, Cable, and Satellite formats.

4. 4Kx2K Resolution Support: Although the current high definition standard for consumer equipment tops out at 1920x1080 (1080p), HDMI 1.4 can accommodate future 3840x2160 and 4096x2160 high definition pixel resolutions now in the planning stages.

5. Expanded Support For Color Spaces: This allows better color reproduction when displaying digital still photos from HDMI-connected Digital Still Cameras.

6. Micro HDMI Connector: Just as mini-USB is employed with portable digital devices, a new "Micro HDMI" Connector is much smaller connector that can still supports up to 1080p resolutions for portable devices. This is very practical for video camcorders, digital still cameras, and portable digital video playback devices.


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#69 OFFLINE   jacmyoung

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:28 PM

If you mean a list of specific models, then no, I don't think that is what is being done. My previous TV was a 2009 Samsung model which could in fact not display DirecTV's 3d signal in 3d, but my HR24 (connected through my AVR) decided it was 3d capable, and sent it video, which I could view as two side by side frames. To make a mistake like that, it seems the HR24 must be looking at capabilities, not specific models.


I wouldn't call it a "mistake" rather the way it should be:)

#70 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:31 PM

If you mean a list of specific models, then no, I don't think that is what is being done. My previous TV was a 2009 Samsung model which could in fact not display DirecTV's 3d signal in 3d, but my HR24 (connected through my AVR) decided it was 3d capable, and sent it video, which I could view as two side by side frames. To make a mistake like that, it seems the HR24 must be looking at capabilities, not specific models.


Seems to me your experience would suggest the opposite. If your TV wasn't capable of converting a SBS signal into 3d, then that sounds like it's not the the capabilities that determined what was sent, but a mistake in their list. Just like Primetime19's 73838 model TV... that one IS capable of handling a SBS signal, but if you look at DirecTV's list, they say that it requires the adapter to view 3d. That is not the case... all the models that end in 8 are 2010 models, and those can handle SBS & T/B without the adapter. DirecTV was mistaken when they put that list together, and it just so happens that their DVRs are making the same mistake.
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#71 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:31 PM

I'm pretty sure some of the added functionality of 1.4 requires new hardware, such as ethernet over HDMI. But I agree, for the most part, 3d works over 1.3, as evidenced by people using 3d sources (other than DirecTV of course) with 1.3 gear. The exception may be 3d Blu-ray... as opposed to the formats being used in broadcast, the frame-packed 3d 1080p format does appear a little different compared to a standard 1080p signal, as at least some AVRs seem to have difficulty extracting HD audio out of it. But side by side and top/bottom look just like a standard 2d signal (plus some extra header info), and seem to pass through 1.3 gear just fine.

As I said before, for the purposes of 3D TV, 1.3 is as good as 1.4. ;)

You only need 1.4 specific hardware for things like Ethernet over HDMI, HDMI Micro connector, or 4k formats.

3D need only be firmware not hardware. IMHO, and more to the topic, that means implementing the standards inlcuding EDID and VSI...I'm just sayin' :grin:

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#72 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:38 PM

3D need only be firmware not hardware. IMHO, and more to the topic, that means implementing the standards inlcuding EDID and VSI...I'm just sayin' :grin:


Ah, almost forgot .. I did hear that Mitsubishi will have a firmware update for their TV sets sometime in the next few months. This should help these sets out to some degree. I wonder if the AVR manufactures will have similar updates.
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#73 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:41 PM

Ah, almost forgot .. I did hear that Mitsubishi will have a firmware update for their TV sets sometime in the next few months. This should help these sets out to some degree. I wonder if the AVR manufactures will have similar updates.

Very interesting. :D

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#74 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:56 PM

As I said before, for the purposes of 3D TV, 1.3 is as good as 1.4. ;)

You only need 1.4 specific hardware for things like Ethernet over HDMI, HDMI Micro connector, or 4k formats.

3D need only be firmware not hardware. IMHO, and more to the topic, that means implementing the standards including EDID and VSI...I'm just sayin' :grin:

Mike

That makes plenty of sense.

Since we have been told the HR20's are not 3D compatible with DirecTV, and HDMI 1.3 came out about the same time (so too late to add it into those models), then all other HD DVRs starting with the HR21 featuring v1.3 or 1.3a could be used - and in fact have firmware updated to support 3D HD.

That takes HDMI v1.4a out of play as a "standard requirement"...since it just came earlier this year. As Doug indicated, it would seem VSI Alliance requirements are more in play than anything else, in terms of how DirecTV's 3D HD works at this time.

It's also good news for those folks with Mitz units to hear that their 3D HD displays might become more compatible with firmware updates.
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#75 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

Mike Bertelson

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 01:01 PM

That makes plenty of sense.

Since we have been told the HR20's are not 3D compatible with DirecTV, and HDMI 1.3 came out about the same time (so too late to add it into those models), then all other HD DVRs starting with the HR21 featuring v1.3 or 1.3a could be used - and in fact have firmware updated to support 3D HD.

That takes HDMI v1.4a out of play as a "standard requirement"...since it just came earlier this year. As Doug indicated, it would seem VSI Alliance requirements are more in play than anything else, in terms of how DirecTV's 3D HD works at this time.

It's also good news for those folks with Mitz units to hear that their 3D HD displays might become more compatible with firmware updates.

That's a really good point.

I meant to include the HR2x hardware timeline but forgot. It really shows that 1.3 is 3D. You don't need anything to 1.4 to be able to do 3D. :D

Mike

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