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Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content?


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Poll: Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content? (143 member(s) have cast votes)

Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content?

  1. Yes, DirecTv should lessen the EDID restrictions for watching 3D content. (115 votes [80.42%])

    Percentage of vote: 80.42%

  2. No, the EDID restrictions imposed by DirecTv for watching 3D content is good. (28 votes [19.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.58%

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#81 OFFLINE   NewForceFiveFan

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 02:00 PM

That's a little vague, but maybe that's right, and DirecTV is following specs, so when you can't get your AVR to work with DirecTV 3d channels, it's the AVR's fault. But why should I care whose fault it is? Am I an HDMI enforcement officer? I just want my equipment to work to do what I want, and DirecTV is blocking a TV signal in some cases, when there is no apparent point to it. It is just very irritating. Even supposing DirecTV is within its rights to frustrate some of its customers this way, does that mean they should do it?


I don't agree with the other posters that Directv is at fault here. Their configuration says that if you do a direct connection with a compatible 3dtv then it will work fine and so far that has been proven to be true. Unfortunately all the people it works fine for aren't the ones bitching here about a problem that is probably caused by their incompatible equipment connected between the Directv receiver and the 3D TV.

Another good example is Directv's Dolby Digital 5.1 output. If you go from a Directv receiver directly to the AV receiver DD5.1 works flawlessly. Like most other Directv customers I discovered most tv manufacturers cripple the optical/coaxial digital outputs on the tv so only OTA HD outputs to AV receivers properly and audio passed-thru doesn't. Is that Directv's fault? No. It is a nuisance? Yes. But it's still not Directv's fault. If I want proper DD5.1 audio I connect the satellite dish receiver, blu-ray player, whatever, directly to the AV receiver. If I want crippled DD audio I pass-thru the tv.

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#82 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 02:12 PM

Seems the argument is "My Blu-Ray player does it .. Why can't DIRECTV" ...

The Blu-Ray player either chose to disregard the spec or ignored it completely and then works. DIRECTV has chosen to follow the spec and folks here are asking that DIRECTV NOT follow the spec. So what's right? Right is probably to follow the spec, but understandably it feels wrong.
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#83 OFFLINE   GregLee

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 02:21 PM

Seems to me your experience would suggest the opposite. If your TV wasn't capable of converting a SBS signal into 3d, then that sounds like it's not the the capabilities that determined what was sent, but a mistake in their list.

I don't understand your reasoning. Why would DirecTV include a 2009 model in their list, when we all know that hdmi 1.4a was not adopted until 2010 and no preceding year's models support it? Is that a possible mistake?

Besides, I didn't say my "TV wasn't capable of converting a SBS signal into 3d". What I said was subtly different -- that it "could in fact not display DirecTV's 3d signal in 3d". That model, pn42b450, according to its manual, can display in 3d a SBS 728x1024 signal. So it is "capable of converting a SBS signal into 3d." (Of course, the DirecTV boxes don't supply signals at that resolution.)
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#84 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 02:37 PM

I don't agree with the other posters that Directv is at fault here. Their configuration says that if you do a direct connection with a compatible 3dtv then it will work fine and so far that has been proven to be true. Unfortunately all the people it works fine for aren't the ones bitching here about a problem that is probably caused by their incompatible equipment connected between the Directv receiver and the 3D TV.

Another good example is Directv's Dolby Digital 5.1 output. If you go from a Directv receiver directly to the AV receiver DD5.1 works flawlessly. Like most other Directv customers I discovered most tv manufacturers cripple the optical/coaxial digital outputs on the tv so only OTA HD outputs to AV receivers properly and audio passed-thru doesn't. Is that Directv's fault? No. It is a nuisance? Yes. But it's still not Directv's fault. If I want proper DD5.1 audio I connect the satellite dish receiver, blu-ray player, whatever, directly to the AV receiver. If I want crippled DD audio I pass-thru the tv.


I for one do not care who's fault it is as long as someone comes up with a solution. I offered one idea concerning a hidden search term that would I believe offer a fair and practical solution. DirecTv is a good company but like any company their is always room for improvement and I believe that 3D is an area where there is room for improvement. If people did not complaint then how would anyone know their is a problem.

Additionally, what may impact one person may not impact another. I realize that you can't make everyone happy. DirecTv can not turn a non 3D capable HDTV into a 3D capable HDTV. However, I believe that DirecTv can allow 3D capable equipment including legacy 1.3 equipment to watch its 3D broadcasts by either improving its software or giving more control to the user.

Furthermore, I am not asking for DirecTv to support something that is not on their official list. I use wired cat-5e for MRV rather than DECA. I understand that DirecTv does not officially support non DECA connections and I am fine with that. I also understand that the DirecTv receivers are not capable of producing a 3D Checkerboard signal and I am fine with that as 3D Checkerboard is not one of the officially approved 3D formats. What I am not good with is an EDID / VSI scheme that prevents perfectly capable 3D equipment from working with DirecTv's equipment.

#85 OFFLINE   High def mon

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 03:08 PM

I sure hope someone from Dish picks up on this thread!!!

#86 OFFLINE   GregLee

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 03:11 PM

I don't agree with the other posters that Directv is at fault here.

I think it's remarkable that the blame game here is so popular, even when I've explicitly said otherwise, it's still assumed that I must be playing it.
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#87 OFFLINE   jacmyoung

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 04:29 PM

I sure hope someone from Dish picks up on this thread!!!


If by that you mean once DISH starts doing 3D they may do it differently, therefore DirecTV may change too, I agree. Competition can change things generally for the benefit of the consumers.

#88 OFFLINE   ffemtreed

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 04:48 PM

These issues are exactly why I refuse to purchase any type of 3D TV.

If I can't have my AV receiver between my TV and Source there is a problem that the industry needs to fix. I am not interested in running additional cables as half ass workarounds because DTV can't be compliant with the rest of the world.

#89 OFFLINE   spartanstew

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 04:54 PM

Hey Darin, how've you been?

I'm sure Directv can't wait to get their hands on your unit.

 
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#90 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 05:53 PM

Hey Darin, how've you been?


You're messed up and shoot it into public instead of PM to him. :(

#91 OFFLINE   spartanstew

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 05:55 PM

Not sure what you're trying to say (or if it's English), but...

Lighten up, Francis.

I'm sure Directv can't wait to get their hands on your unit.

 
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#92 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 05:57 PM

You're messed up and shoot it into public instead of PM to him. :(


...what?
DTV = Digital Television

#93 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 08:27 PM

How about a search term such as Enable3D that is hidden in the DirecTv software code. You do a search for the term and this term disables the EDID restrictions which allows that DirecTv customer to watch 3D on his equipment without the EDID restrictions. The customer by enabling this secret search term realizes that DirecTv is not supporting this feature and agrees to not call customer service if they have issues.

I am willing to be part of the beta test group for this program as I bet other DBS.talk members are as well. Any opinion regarding this?


Doug or others with pull,

Would DirecTv be receptive to something like this?

#94 OFFLINE   raclevel

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 12:31 AM

As you can see from the number of posts I am new to this forum..but have been a DirectTv customer for over 14 years. This particular thread has been very informative and a bit confusing. So let me know if I understand correctly…
1. DirectTV being the leader that they are has partnered with Panasonic to be the first to provide 3D content to its customers. Panasonics interest is that they are now producing 3D Blu-ray players and have released their first 3D capable HDTVs and realize that they can sell more of them if some 3D content was actually available. As part of this partnership Panasonic is providing the content for the n3D ch 103.

2. I assume that Panasonic also provided the expertise for the 3D firmware updates to DirectTVs DVRs so that they will work seamlessly with the new Panasonic TVs. This firmware includes the ability to do a handshake with the TVs to identify if a TV is 3D capable using the model number or other identifier (EDID). This handshake also enables the TV to automatically switch to 3D mode (at least for the Panasonic TVs) which makes everything work seamlessly for Panasonic customers who don’t use an AVR , bypass the AVR or who recently upgraded to an HDMI 1.4 compliant AVR. If the DVR does not receive this EDID then it disables the 3D channels (they go gray with a message about compatibility)


3. This handshake can only be accomplished if the DVR is connected directly to the qualified TV or if through an AVR it must be HDMI 1.4 capable. The only legacy 3D ready TVs are select Mitsubishi and Samsung DLP models dating back as far as 2007. These legacy TVs require an adaptor to convert the newly established 3D signal types to a checkerboard format which is required by DLP TVs. The new Mitsubishi 2010 models have this adaptor function built in and are fully capable of decoding the DTV DVR 3D format. (They will require a firmware update to be able to decode the 3D Blu-ray format.)

4. Now the problem is that for those customers who use AVRs in their systems a vast majority of them are the legacy HDMI 1.3 models (edit) which supply their own EDID to the DVR which indicates that the AVR is not 3D capable (edit) which requires these customers to bypass their AVRs for the DTV DRV signal or to do some other workaround even though their HDMI 1.3 AVRs are fully capable of passing the 3D signal to the TV..They just don't send an EDID indicating 3D functionality to the DVR.

5. If DTV eliminates the EDID check and the handshake the 3D signal could be sent through the legacy AVRs to any TV. The problem with this is that the Panasonic customers would have to manually switch their TVs to 3D mode so the seamless operation is lost.

6. So what we are asking is that DTV provide some sort of toggle so the EDID 3D functionality check can be turned off for those of us with who wish to continue to use our HDMI 1.3 AVRs or who have legacy 3D ready TVs. Or perhaps even better they could do the programming to do the handshake if a proper EDID is sent or skip the handshake if a non 3D function EDID is detected?

If my understanding of all this is correct , this fix doesn’t seem all the difficult to implement..

Edited by raclevel, 11 August 2010 - 05:39 AM.
Corrected information


#95 OFFLINE   LarryFlowers

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:16 AM

If my understanding of all this is correct , this fix doesn’t seem all the difficult to implement..


I could see where you might get some of these impressions...

There exists a group of people who invested in 3D televisions that are older and do not use the format that DirecTV has decided to pursue. Understandable these people are not happy with this.

Some of the individuals have found various ways to deal with the problem with some success.

Adding other equipment to the process, such as AVR's appears to interfere with the solution they have found.

What seems to be escaping everyone is the fact that a) DirecTV picked a format to support B) only a very small group of people are affected by the problem because c) hardly anyone is watching 3D at all in the first place.

Should 3D actually become a major selling item in the future, DirecTV has already positioned itself to supply programming in the format that seems to be the dominant format.. at least all the manufacturers seem to building equipment to support it... and since so few people invested in 3D in the unsupported format, I would consider it unlikely that DirecTV is going to make a changes from its current approach notwithstanding the desires of the people who would like to see it so.

Based just on the poll for this thread we are talking about a group of people that is statistically small.

People are just starting to buy 3D capable hardware (that is compliant) and it is being sold at premium prices in economic times that positively suck. It is still a risky purchase.

Even among manufacturers that are using the same 3D format, the glasses aren't necessarily interchangeable. Panasonic glasses are working on Samsung but the reverse is not true.

2 standards have been set.. Blu-Ray 3D specifications are complete. HDMI specifications are complete. TV specs are NOT, at least 2 manufacturers, Toshiba & Hitachi are working on a completely different 3D format.

If someone buys a 3D Blu-Ray player 3D TV today, these will work together and DirecTV's implementation of 3D will work as well, so as 3D sales come into some semblence of the mainstream DirecTV is well positioned.

Keep in mind, the entire universe of 3D TV owners who are also DirecTV subscribers is a statistically insignificant universe. There are enormous hurdles ahead for any large adoption of 3D. I do not see DirecTV expending an enormous effort into deviating from the current specifications.

It would be much easier for the small group of people to connect in such a way as to eliminate the AVR problem and deliver audio from the TV to the AVR instead of from the HD DVR to the AVR. It wouldn't be the best implementation but it would work and considering their tv's weren't supported in the first place a reasonable solution.

If I were DirecTV I would be leary of deviating from my planned course, particularly when there is no way of knowing what other methods may come along to bring these older TV's into compliance with the current standards.
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#96 OFFLINE   HerntDawg

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 04:51 AM

3D what?

#97 OFFLINE   smiddy

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 05:17 AM

3D what?

Much like HDTV, you can now get 3DTV that can also do HDTV. :lol: It's newfangled stuff. :)
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#98 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 05:27 AM

As you can see from the number of posts I am new to this forum..but have been a DirectTv customer for over 14 years. This particular thread has been very informative and a bit confusing. So let me know if I understand correctly…
1. DirectTV being the leader that they are has partnered with Panasonic to be the first to provide 3D content to its customers. Panasonics interest is that they are now producing 3D Blu-ray players and have released their first 3D capable HDTVs and realize that they can sell more of them if some 3D content was actually available. As part of this partnership Panasonic is providing the content for the n3D ch 103.
2. I assume that Panasonic also provided the expertise for the 3D firmware updates to DirectTVs DVRs so that they will work seamlessly with the new Panasonic TVs. This firmware includes the ability to do a handshake with the TVs to identify if a TV is 3D capable using the model number or other identifier (EDID). This handshake also enables the TV to automatically switch to 3D mode (at least for the Panasonic TVs) which makes everything work seamlessly for Panasonic customers who don’t use an AVR , bypass the AVR or who recently upgraded to an HDMI 1.4 compliant AVR. If the DVR does not receive this EDID then it disables the 3D channels (they go gray with a message about compatibility)
3. This handshake can only be accomplished if the DVR is connected directly to the qualified TV or if through an AVR it must be HDMI 1.4 capable. The only legacy 3D ready TVs are select Mitsubishi and Samsung DLP models dating back as far as 2007. These legacy TVs require an adaptor to convert the newly established 3D signal types to a checkerboard format which is required by DLP TVs. The new Mitsubishi 2010 models have this adaptor function built in and are fully capable of decoding the DTV DVR 3D format. (They will require a firmware update to be able to decode the 3D Blu-ray format.)
4. Now the problem is that for those customers who use AVRs in their systems a vast majority of them are the legacy HDMI 1.3 models so they cannot do the handshake described above which requires these customers to bypass their AVRs for the DTV DRV signal or to do some other workaround even though their HDMI 1.3 AVRs are fully capable of passing the 3D signal to the TV..They just can’t exchange the data required for the handshake.
5. If DTV eliminates the EDID check and the handshake the 3D signal could be sent through the legacy AVRs to any TV. The problem with this is that the Panasonic customers would have to manually switch their TVs to 3D mode so the seamless operation is lost.
6. So what we are asking is that DTV provide some sort of toggle so the EDID check can be turned off for those of us with who wish to continue to use our HDMI 1.3 AVRs or who have legacy 3D ready TVs. Or perhaps even better they could do the programming to do the handshake if a proper EDID is sent or skip the handshake if no EDID is detected?
If my understanding of all this is correct , this fix doesn’t seem all the difficult to implement..

Good morning raclevel, and welcome to DBSTalk. :welcome_s

Although you say you are a bit confused, I think you have the discussion well in hand. :)

However, Doug Brott suspects the problem is with VSI and EDID. He explains in this post...

http://www.dbstalk.c...385#post2549385

I’m not sure anyone of us knows for sure what the issue is but it is an interesting discussion. ;)

Mike

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#99 OFFLINE   nc88keyz

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 06:38 AM

this thread is making my head hurt, but i agree with searching for "enable 3d" or "uneidecheck". We've used this work around before and avoid support. At least let us test it out for a while before introducing it mainstream firmware.

However with that said, I would like to see "enable3d" code more because in a dreamworld that would mean that my HR20s would deliver 3d Magically!!!!

j/k

#100 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 07:19 AM

There should be a dialog box of some sort that pops up when a display is believed to be incompatible. The user should be able to acknowledge that and attempt to display the 3D content if they wish.
DTV = Digital Television




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