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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content?


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Poll: Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content? (143 member(s) have cast votes)

Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content?

  1. Yes, DirecTv should lessen the EDID restrictions for watching 3D content. (115 votes [80.42%])

    Percentage of vote: 80.42%

  2. No, the EDID restrictions imposed by DirecTv for watching 3D content is good. (28 votes [19.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.58%

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#121 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:03 AM

DirecTv's EDID / VSI system is not working properly. Some people who are using compliant equipment hooked up the way DirecTv states they want it hooked up can not watch 3D while others as evidenced by this post:

"I have my H24-100 connected to our VIZIO VM230XVT. This LCD TV supports all resolutions up to 1080P/60, but does not support 3D. The H24 handshake process incorrectly identifies my TV as 3D capable and in the misc menu says it supports 3D resolutions of 480i/480p/1080i. Tuning to chan 103, etc shows two full images in a side by side mode. I'm not sure if this is a VIZIO HDMI problem or an H24 HDMI problem, but I dumped a report anyway."

DirecTv is great when it comes to software development and testing. However, there are many loyal DBS.talk members who are of the opinion that we need to recognize there is a problem and make it better.

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#122 OFFLINE   GregLee

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:08 AM

...no...you just don't get it. I give up. This is a conversation which should be taking place at AVS rather than here. That much is painfully obvious.

At AVS you will find Ron Jones' Basic 3D video FAQs, and you can look at his answer to "Question - Do I need a new AV Receiver (AVR) with HDMI version 1.4a inputs and output if I connect the new 3D sources thru the AVR to my 3DTV display or will my old AVR with HDMI inputs work." for a concise account of the relevance of HDMI 1.4a to this matter.
Greg

#123 OFFLINE   Lee L

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:23 AM

So, I'm confused. Do any DirecTV reciers have HDMI 1.4a compatible outputs? Is that somethign that can be changed with firmware or is it hardware? If the DirecTV boxes are not 1.4a compatible then how is any of this even an issue? Personally, I think 3D won't be sucessfull in the long run, but if I was looking, this kind of confusion would also drive me to reconsider that.


DirecTV, please don't make me have to go back to watching March Madness in standard Def! Oh, and the usual begging for AMC and BBC America. You are so close to actually being the HD Leader.

#124 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:34 AM

DirecTv's EDID / VSI system is not working properly. Some people who are using compliant equipment hooked up the way DirecTv states they want it hooked up can not watch 3D while others as evidenced by this post:

"I have my H24-100 connected to our VIZIO VM230XVT. This LCD TV supports all resolutions up to 1080P/60, but does not support 3D. The H24 handshake process incorrectly identifies my TV as 3D capable and in the misc menu says it supports 3D resolutions of 480i/480p/1080i. Tuning to chan 103, etc shows two full images in a side by side mode. I'm not sure if this is a VIZIO HDMI problem or an H24 HDMI problem, but I dumped a report anyway."

DirecTv is great when it comes to software development and testing. However, there are many loyal DBS.talk members who are of the opinion that we need to recognize there is a problem and make it better.

If it’s the case that DirecTV's implementation of EDID & VSI isn’t working correctly then it’s not a situation where you want to give the viewer the option to bypass blocking the 3D signal.

The firmware not working correctly becomes a matter of reporting specific 3D problems in the applicable issues thread and getting it problem fixed.

Giving the viewer the option to bypass DirecTV's implementation just to watch 3D would just create a work around that masks the real problem.

IMHO, if the problem is with the firmware, then bypassing it it the wrong way to get it fixed.

Mike

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Since it costs 2.4¢ to produce a penny, my 2¢ worth is really 4.8¢ worth.  That 4.8¢ is my own and not the 4.8¢ of DIRECTV, Dish, or anyone else for that matter.


#125 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:37 AM

All the rhetoric 'contra' arguments sounds to me as SW Dept manager's excuses. Hear that many times. :(

#126 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:39 AM

So, I'm confused. Do any DirecTV reciers have HDMI 1.4a compatible outputs? Is that somethign that can be changed with firmware or is it hardware? If the DirecTV boxes are not 1.4a compatible then how is any of this even an issue? Personally, I think 3D won't be sucessfull in the long run, but if I was looking, this kind of confusion would also drive me to reconsider that.

No they don't. At the highest they are 1.3 compliant.

However, the 3D portions of the 1.4a specifications are software based and not really hardware based. As far as a standard high speed HDMI cable is concerned, 1.3 and 1.4 are identical.

For example, the Ethernet over HDMI or the Micro connector cables are physically different from the standard high speed cable and would require the new 1.4 compliant HDMI chip set, but the implementation of 3D only relies on the high speed HDMI. In the case of 3D, 1.3 is equivalent to 1.4 (beyond 3D is another story).

Mike

Edited by Mike Bertelson, 04 August 2010 - 11:38 AM.
clarification

µß
Since it costs 2.4¢ to produce a penny, my 2¢ worth is really 4.8¢ worth.  That 4.8¢ is my own and not the 4.8¢ of DIRECTV, Dish, or anyone else for that matter.


#127 OFFLINE   raclevel

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:58 AM

There should be a dialog box of some sort that pops up when a display is believed to be incompatible. The user should be able to acknowledge that and attempt to display the 3D content if they wish.


I think we are narrowing down to the real issue here.....

The issue is not the 3D signal formating. All legacy DLP 3D Ready TVs require an adaptor which when in place makes the TV look just like the new 2010 3D TV models. The DTV DVR will recognize the adaptor without any problems. (the 2010 model DLPs TVs not being on the authorized list is a separate issue)

The issue is that hundreds of thousands of legacy HDMI 1.3 AVRs cannot pass the EDID information through to the DVR which requires it to provide seamless operation for a select group of newer 3D TVs. A limited number of models of HDMI 1.4(a) compliant AVRs started to become available earlier this year but the cost to upgrade can be between $500 to several thousand depending on the particular systems needs. This cost is prohibitive for many customers, especially in this economy!!!

Using myself as an example I just finished moving my main audio/visual equipment to a new location and purchased the Yamaha RX-V3900 for about $1800. The replacement model RX-V3067 will not even be available until late this year and will cost between $2K to $3K.

If the solution in the attached can be implemented then I would be able to put off this purchase for several years. I am confident that a vast majority of AVR users are in the same situation as I am...

FWIW, I'm pretty sure DTV tried to fix this issue in early July by removing the EDID checks but changed back when they recieved complaints from several customers who were using new Panasonic 3D TVs. This is just a guess based on observation and various tech forum entries.. We were all excited that the 3D channels were no longer grayed out and we could pass the signal through our HDMI 1.3 AVRs with a Side by Side video showing up on the screen (note that the Mits Adaptors were not available yet) But a week later they grayed out again. In the same time frame some complaints from Panasonic customers showed up in the DTV 3D tech forum because this required them to manually change their TV settings to 3D instead of it being done automatically, they were informed that it was due to "firmware glitch" and would be corrected shortlly and it was, the channels grayed out again...

Again: The above mentioned fix, would be a win win solution for all customers!!!

#128 OFFLINE   GregLee

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 11:13 AM

Do any DirecTV reciers have HDMI 1.4a compatible outputs?

That's a difficult matter of terminology. I think the answer is yes, since HDMI 1.4a places no special requirements on 3D signal sources, other than producing one of the 3D formats of the spec. You sometimes see people answering this question the other way, because the satellite receiver HDMI chips were made for an earlier generation of HDMI processing, but the band width of those chips is irrelevant for signal sources, just so long as it is sufficient for the 1080i-compatible SbS 3D video that the DirecTV boxes are producing.
Greg

#129 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 11:31 AM

Don't keep us in suspense.


There's suspense? :shrug: I think everyone here knows the answer already, too.
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#130 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 11:35 AM

FWIW, I'm pretty sure DTV tried to fix this issue in early July by removing the EDID checks but changed back when they recieved complaints from several customers who were using new Panasonic 3D TVs. This is just a guess based on observation and various tech forum entries.. We were all excited that the 3D channels were no longer grayed out and we could pass the signal through our HDMI 1.3 AVRs with a Side by Side video showing up on the screen (note that the Mits Adaptors were not available yet) But a week later they grayed out again. In the same time frame some complaints from Panasonic customers showed up in the DTV 3D tech forum because this required them to manually change their TV settings to 3D instead of it being done automatically, they were informed that it was due to "firmware glitch" and would be corrected shortlly and it was, the channels grayed out again...

Again: The above mentioned fix, would be a win win solution for all customers!!!


Some good stuff there ...
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#131 OFFLINE   jwitt

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 11:50 AM

I agree with Geaux,
I and others have been trying to get the Mit's adapter to work with the Gefen detective with infrequent success. Recorded content from when the channels were not greyed out work fine, indicating that the equipment works. Then EDID restrictions were apparently added to the guide causing the inability to watch or record.
Until last night !
Kevin 6545 got it up and working with the channels lit up. I also have it working even shutting down entire system and changing channels in and out of 3d.
I believe, or hope, that DTV may be working on lessening EDID restrictions as we chat.
I wish they would communicate in someway what their intentions are and when to expect changes.
I can't speak regarding the new AVR's but it may be worth a try this morning to see if there is any difference.
I don't think much of either Mit's (Promise upgrade a few years ago.) or Samsung (No support of their 3d ready customers including lack of checkerboard on their new 3d BR players). Panasonic and DTV... Great. Just as long as the roughly 4.5 million 3d ready DLP's get access. Including Samsung sets with an EDID spoof tool.
Currently, the 3d on the large DLP's is very impressive. The sets are cheap compared to the smaller, new type, LCD's.
DTV, if your working at making it compatible, let us know...
Kevin's instructions from last night can be had here:
avsforum> 3d central > 3d displays>Mitsubishi 3d checkerboard converter+Gefen HDMI Detective= 3d on Samsung... Post #127 (Sorry, it wouldn't let me post a link due to lack of posts.)
I got the same results with a couple less resets indicated a couple posts after.
JIM

Edited by jwitt, 04 August 2010 - 11:55 AM.
spelling


#132 OFFLINE   DogLover

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 11:52 AM

Some good stuff there ...


So that means that they'd have to find a way to make other configurations work, without breaking the "automatic" nature of the Panasonic TV's and other working configurations? That does mean that it would likely be a more complex fix, which means likely a more expensive fix.

Does this mean that it shouldn't be done? If I am wrong and 3D TVs become very popular, I think DIRECTV will have to consider doing this. AVRs are just too expensive and too long lived to let them stand in the way of people enjoying their 3D sets.
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#133 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 12:11 PM

So that means that they'd have to find a way to make other configurations work, without breaking the "automatic" nature of the Panasonic TV's and other working configurations? That does mean that it would likely be a more complex fix, which means likely a more expensive fix.

Does this mean that it shouldn't be done? If I am wrong and 3D TVs become very popular, I think DIRECTV will have to consider doing this. AVRs are just too expensive and too long lived to let them stand in the way of people enjoying their 3D sets.

That does not mean it. It's just a FIX.

#134 ONLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 12:14 PM

There seems to be some incomplete information or logic here.

1) We know both EDID information and VSI frames are used.
2) We know a spoofer can make things work.
3) We know an adapter can make things work for some TVs.
4) We have at least one example of a TV not on the supported list that tries to work...
5) The original "supported" list did say that others will work too.

Without knowing how the "spoofer" works, I suggest it might be spoofing the features as well as the EDID (and VSI). That would mean we could not tell if a white list is used or just a capabilities list.

Alas, we can't "really" be certain about a white list from the fact that at least one TV worked that wasn't on the supported list. That TV might have a bogus EDID--though it does hint toward an absence of a white list.

To me the really important point was the "others might work too" clause. I'm pretty certain DIRECTV is not using a white list, but rather a stringent feature list through VSI. If the handshake isn't correct, they can't reliably support 3d. (at this time.)

That all said, the standards are still shifting. If nothing else, the interoperability parts are still being tested and defined.

Perhaps DIRECTV will permit a flag to "force enable" 3D. Or perhaps in their analysis of 3D ready TVs that they might try to force enable, they find it isn't worth that effort at this time. I don't know enough of what the VSI bits are used for. If there is anything, anything whatsoever relating to copy protection, you know DIRECTV will not create a force enable flag....

Cheers,
Tom

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#135 OFFLINE   DogLover

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 12:25 PM

That does not mean it. It's just a FIX.


Sorry, if it takes more resources (more programming hours, more testing hours, etc), it is more expensive to the company. I fully understand that any company has to weigh the cost of accomodating customers against the benefit of accomodating them.

Whether you call it a FIX for something broken, or a SOLUTION, to support currently unsupported customers, doesn't really matter. It is still a cost/benefit analysis on whether it should be done. Their job is to make money. If they can make more money leaving something broke, that's what they should do. (Of course, estimating the cost/benefit of angry vs happy customers is not an exact science.)
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#136 OFFLINE   GregLee

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 12:26 PM

The new Mitsubishi 2010 models have this adaptor function built in and are fully capable of decoding the DTV DVR 3D format.

As a minor note to what you've written, apparently the 2010 Mitsubishi DLPs that support the SbS 3D format are not "fully capable of decoding the DTV DVR 3D format", since they still require the external Mitsubishi adapter. Some such solution as the one you discuss could solve this problem, as well.
Greg

#137 OFFLINE   waltm

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:08 PM

Sorry, if it takes more resources (more programming hours, more testing hours, etc), it is more expensive to the company. I fully understand that any company has to weigh the cost of accomodating customers against the benefit of accomodating them.


If/when they start charging a monthly fee for 3D channels then it would be in their best interest to have the programming available to the largest customer base possible. I'd bet they would find a work around then. How much money are they making from 'unsupported MRV' subscribers?

FWIW, I'm pretty sure DTV tried to fix this issue in early July by removing the EDID checks but changed back when they recieved complaints from several customers who were using new Panasonic 3D TVs. This is just a guess based on observation and various tech forum entries.. We were all excited that the 3D channels were no longer grayed out and we could pass the signal through our HDMI 1.3 AVRs with a Side by Side video showing up on the screen (note that the Mits Adaptors were not available yet) ...


During this same time I was able to see the SbS format on my Mits DLP even tho I have an HR20-700. Wouldn't it be nice it they let us force 3D channels and I could keep my HR20 instead of having to upgrade that as well.....

#138 OFFLINE   NewForceFiveFan

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:18 PM

Some time the technically "wrong" choice is the best business choice.

Do the standards really say that "if you can't determine that a device is 3D capable, you can't try to send them a 3D signal and let the view decide if it is correct"?


By taking away the "wrong" choice Directv is protecting their business from the type of people that we put warning labels about the dangers of electricity on electronic items for.

#139 OFFLINE   DogLover

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:29 PM

By taking away the "wrong" choice Directv is protecting their business from the type of people that we put warning labels about the dangers of electricity on electronic items for.


Yes, the issue is complex and you won't make everyone happy. If you allow an override, you will make people with older AVRs happy, but have to support people who don't have 3D TVs and don't understand that they don't have 3D TVs.

As long as 3D TVs are a small subset of the market and they are not charging extra for 3D programming, it is hard to make a business case that they should make the change.

However, if 3D catches on and becomes very popular, I think they will be forced into making this change. There will be too many people with 3D TVs and non-compliant AVRs. (At least in this house, AVRs have a long life span.) They will have to consider a way to make that group happy.
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#140 OFFLINE   taz291819

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 02:06 PM

Without knowing how the "spoofer" works, I suggest it might be spoofing the features as well as the EDID (and VSI). That would mean we could not tell if a white list is used or just a capabilities list.

Cheers,
Tom


We know exactly how the "spoofer" works, and you guessed correct. It simply reads the EDID (and obviously the VSI) from a display, saves it, and always sends that particular EDID info regardless of what display is connected afterward.

The company selling the kit for Samsung DLP owners have pre-programmed the Geffen spoofer with a Mits EDID, which is compatible with Directv.

If Directv would ease up on the EDID and VSI restrictions (such as mentioned by raclevel), this would allow most HDMI 1.3 AVRs to work, and more than likely the HR20 series to work also.

Heck, put an option in the settings menu to be able to force 3D.




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