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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content?


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Poll: Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content? (143 member(s) have cast votes)

Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content?

  1. Yes, DirecTv should lessen the EDID restrictions for watching 3D content. (115 votes [80.42%])

    Percentage of vote: 80.42%

  2. No, the EDID restrictions imposed by DirecTv for watching 3D content is good. (28 votes [19.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.58%

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#141 OFFLINE   raclevel

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 02:49 PM

As a minor note to what you've written, apparently the 2010 Mitsubishi DLPs that support the SbS 3D format are not "fully capable of decoding the DTV DVR 3D format", since they still require the external Mitsubishi adapter. Some such solution as the one you discuss could solve this problem, as well.


Actually the 2010 Mitsubishi DLPs do not need the adapter to decode the DVR SbS 3D format. DTV did not add them to the "White List" so they require the adaptor just to provide an acceptable EDID. But like I said in my post this is probably a separate issue to what we are trying to resolve here..

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#142 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 09:29 PM

Actually the 2010 Mitsubishi DLPs do not need the adapter to decode the DVR SbS 3D format. DTV did not add them to the "White List" so they require the adaptor just to provide an acceptable EDID. But like I said in my post this is probably a separate issue to what we are trying to resolve here..


Does this mean that if you buy a new 3D capable HDTV and want to watch DirecTv in 3D you can't do it until your HDTV is added to the white list. Is that part of the 3D standard?

#143 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 09:35 PM

Again, I don't there is sufficient evidence to verify there is a whitelist. Indeed, I think there is evidence more strongly indicating there is no whitelist.

This wouldn't be the first time TV makers screwed a standard... many still don't support 1080p correctly. And HDMI was an abomination for many TV makers at first.

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Tom

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#144 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:14 PM

I am not sure if DirecTv has changed the encoding for its 3D signals again but myself and others have now been able to restore the 3D broadcasts on our HDTVs. Once your DirecTv receiver believes your HDTV is not 3D capable and greys out the channels then it is very difficult to restore the 3D channels for watching. I still believe that there needs to be a work around to resolve this problem.

DirecTv if you did change the 3D encoding then please accept this thank you from a long time customer and keep up the good work. I am using my HDMI 1.3 A/V receiver to listen to programs in 5.1 but I had to switch to toslink as my HDMI sound was limited to 2.0 even though I have Dolby Digital enabled in the audio settings. If DirecTv would not rely on the EDID information to determine audio capabilities then this problem I believe would go away.

On a positive note, I am very pleased with the 3D picture when it works.

#145 OFFLINE   jacmyoung

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 08:55 AM

So this issue is just related to audio capability, nothing to do with 3D?

#146 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 09:10 AM

So this issue is just related to audio capability, nothing to do with 3D?


For some it relates more to audio capability in that they can't have their audio receiver and TV hooked up at the same time via the HDMI data stream--when watching 3D.

For many others it is purely a 3D issue on their TV.

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#147 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 09:36 AM

I think the primary issue is running HDMI from STB to AVR to TV not working when STB to TV works just fine.
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#148 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 12:57 PM

There are two major issues as I see them.

1. The EDID / VSI restrictions or the way DirecTv sometimes broadcasts the signal prevent those with functioning 3D equipment from sometimes being able to watch DirecTv's broadcasts of 3D channels. The channels are greyed out and are inaccessible. This problem occurs on some 3D equipment that is officially supported and some equipment that is not officially supported by DirecTv. No one seems to know whether there is an official white list of approved gear by DirecTv or not.

2. The EDID /VSI restrictions that DirecTv uses try to determine what type of equipment you use and only allow that many audio channels to be broadcast. Many of us are limited to 2.0 audio through our HDMI connection into our A/V Receivers because of this. There is a menu selection where the customer can select to enable Dolby Digital (5.1) but the DirecTv receiver is ignoring the customers preference and using the EDID /VSI information instead to output audio instead. It is my understanding that other devices allow the user to control the audio output but this is not the system that Directv uses.

If someone else is aware of other issues then please list them as I am sure there is something I missed.

#149 OFFLINE   DogLover

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 01:30 PM

There are two major issues as I see them.

1. The EDID / VSI restrictions or the way DirecTv sometimes broadcasts the signal prevent those with functioning 3D equipment from sometimes being able to watch DirecTv's broadcasts of 3D channels. The channels are greyed out and are inaccessible. This problem occurs on some 3D equipment that is officially supported and some equipment that is not officially supported by DirecTv. No one seems to know whether there is an official white list of approved gear by DirecTv or not.

2. The EDID /VSI restrictions that DirecTv uses try to determine what type of equipment you use and only allow that many audio channels to be broadcast. Many of us are limited to 2.0 audio through our HDMI connection into our A/V Receivers because of this. There is a menu selection where the customer can select to enable Dolby Digital (5.1) but the DirecTv receiver is ignoring the customers preference and using the EDID /VSI information instead to output audio instead. It is my understanding that other devices allow the user to control the audio output but this is not the system that Directv uses.

If someone else is aware of other issues then please list them as I am sure there is something I missed.


2. I think you may be misunderstanding what the menu option does, or perhaps I don't understand what you are saying. The menu option controls PCM vs Dolby Digital, not 2.0 vs 5.1. While PCM is limited to 2.0, Dolby Digital can also be 2.0. Dolby can also be 5.1, but that depends on the broadcast. Many shows are just not broadcast in 5.1.

Are you saying that you have are seeing a shows that you know are broadcast in 5.1, and you are only getting 2.0? And is it PCM 2.0 or Dolby Digital 2.0?

I can no longer test this easily, since the only place I have an AVR also has a TV that can accept Dolby Digital. (At least I assume it does, since it can output Dolby Digital to an AVR.)
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#150 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 02:30 PM

I think you should take the matter of DD/PCM to another thread.
:backtotop:

#151 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 02:49 PM

Been away from the thread for a couple days, have lots to respond to!

I don't understand your reasoning. Why would DirecTV include a 2009 model in their list, when we all know that hdmi 1.4a was not adopted until 2010 and no preceding year's models support it? Is that a possible mistake? Besides, I didn't say my "TV wasn't capable of converting a SBS signal into 3d". What I said was subtly different -- that it "could in fact not display DirecTV's 3d signal in 3d". That model, pn42b450, according to its manual, can display in 3d a SBS 728x1024 signal. So it is "capable of converting a SBS signal into 3d." (Of course, the DirecTV boxes don't supply signals at that resolution.)

I simply read that as your display couldn’t handle the 3d format that was being sent to it from the DirecTV receiver, yet the receiver allowed it anyway. IF DirecTV (and your display) are following the 1.4 3d spec by the book, and using ONLY the 1.4 spec to determine what it does and doesn’t send to the display, that shouldn’t happen. Not only does the handshake say whether or not it can handle 3d, it says what specific formats and resolutions it can handle. If your TV can’t handle what DirecTV is sending, technically you should have gotten the same message the rest of us are getting. From the 1.4 spec: “An HDMI Source shall not send any 3D video format to a Sink that does not indicate support for that
format.”. That is why I said your experience suggests a white list rather than just blindly following the HDMI signaling. It would seem more likely for DirecTV to make a mistake on a list, than for the TV to respond as supporting a signal that it can’t.

Seems the argument is "My Blu-Ray player does it .. Why can't DIRECTV"

I wouldn’t put it exactly that way… it’s more “DirecTV says my TV isn’t 3d capable, but it is. Other sources don’t have this problem, so it’s obviously an issue that can be worked around."

There exists a group of people who invested in 3D televisions that are older and do not use the format that DirecTV has decided to pursue. Understandable these people are not happy with this.

Just for clarification, I think for the vast majority of us, the format isn’t the issue. TI came up with a 3d format that was used on legacy 3d ready TVs, the industry ultimately went a different way, that’s the way the cookie crumbles. Fortunately Mitsubishi stood by its customers and offered an adapter to convert the new formats to the old format. The issue is when customers have displays that ARE capable of the current formats (be it a new set that handles it natively, or an old set with an adapter), yet DirecTV’s equipment insists that it’s not a 3d device.

All the rhetoric 'contra' arguments sounds to me as SW Dept manager's excuses. Hear that many times. :(

Agreed. :nono2:

By taking away the "wrong" choice Directv is protecting their business from the type of people that we put warning labels about the dangers of electricity on electronic items for.

I’m still failing to understand what kinds of “dangers” are involved here. We just want to be able to view 3d on our 3d TVs. :confused:

If it’s the case that DirecTV's implementation of EDID & VSI isn’t working correctly then it’s not a situation where you want to give the viewer the option to bypass blocking the 3D signal.
The firmware not working correctly becomes a matter of reporting specific 3D problems in the applicable issues thread and getting it problem fixed.
Giving the viewer the option to bypass DirecTV's implementation just to watch 3D would just create a work around that masks the real problem.

I don’t perceive the issue being that EDID and VSI aren’t working correctly. It’s simply that the way it was designed eliminates the possibility of backwards compatibility. It’s not “broken” per se, it’s just written with the assumption that the consumer has bottomless pockets and doesn’t mind upgrading their entire system every time the HDMI organization comes up with a new standard. Fortunately, most manufacturers have recognized that this isn’t in the best interest of their customers, and have provided a workaround for this particular part of the spec.

If DTV eliminates the EDID check and the handshake the 3D signal could be sent through the legacy AVRs to any TV. The problem with this is that the Panasonic customers would have to manually switch their TVs to 3D mode so the seamless operation is lost …
FWIW, I'm pretty sure DTV tried to fix this issue in early July by removing the EDID checks but changed back when they recieved complaints from several customers who were using new Panasonic 3D TVs. This is just a guess based on observation and various tech forum entries..

So that means that they'd have to find a way to make other configurations work, without breaking the "automatic" nature of the Panasonic TV's and other working configurations? That does mean that it would likely be a more complex fix, which means likely a more expensive fix.

I’m not convinced that allowing a work-around and having 3d autoswitch are mutually exclusive. The spec says that a source won’t send a signal that the connecting device doesn’t report that it supports. The “problem” occurs when the DirecTV receiver is connected to a device that doesn’t report back that it’s capable of the 3d signal it’s trying to send. In that case, it just won’t even send the video signal to the device. ALLOWING the signal to go anyway shouldn’t change the way things work for newer TVs that understand (and respond to) the handshake. If the header information says it’s a 3d signal, they should autoswitch. It seems much more likely to me that the issue a couple weeks ago was that somehow, those channels simply got coded that they weren’t 3d. Therefore, the auto-switch didn’t happen, and the receiver didn’t care whether or not the device it was connected to was 3d.

Is DIRECTV wrong for following the standard or are the other vendors wrong for NOT following the standard? …
The Blu-Ray player either chose to disregard the spec or ignored it completely and then works. DIRECTV has chosen to follow the spec and folks here are asking that DIRECTV NOT follow the spec. So what's right? Right is probably to follow the spec, but understandably it feels wrong. …
So NOT following standards is the right choice?

It’s interesting that this is being portrayed as some type of right/wrong or even “moral” issue. It seems much more simple (or at least tangible) to me: The HDMI organization put a rule in the 1.4 spec that essentially says that a source device shall not send a signal to an end device that the end device can’t understand. On the surface, that seems very logical, just like it’s very logical to not send a 24p signal to a display that can’t handle it. The problem, of course, is that you COULD end up in a situation where the source is sending a signal that can’t be displayed, and once you do that, it’s difficult to fix because you can no longer see the interface to switch it back to something that works. And I’m sure that the rule was intended with the good intention of preventing such a situation. The problem obviously is that without an override, you are essentially forcing customers to upgrade equipment that doesn’t need to be upgraded. Fortunately, many manufacturers have recognized this potential pitfall, and have enabled a work-around for their customers.

In the case of DirecTV, the risk is particularly benign, because the formats they use LOOK like a regular HD signal. Sending a frame-packed signal (e.g. 3d Blu-ray) to a display that can’t handle it could likely cause the screen to go black. But the formats DirecTV uses simply results in a (side by side, or potentially top/bottom) double image. You can still view and make out the image, so it's easy to fix if you accidentally enable it on a 2d display. Even if they were to use a format in the future that could potentially result in a black screen on a non-HD display, they already have a workaround for that for 24p. You say you want that format, but it doesn’t stick until you’ve confirmed that it actually works. If you don’t don’t confirm the change (after not being able to see the prompt in how to respond saying you do), it reverts back to the “normal” format. Simple.

We’re not talking about anything significant here. It’s not (or shouldn’t be) something controversial like abortion or religion. We’re simply asking for a workaround (like other manufacturers have allowed) to allow some backwards compatibility so we don’t have to go off and replace perfectly good receivers that don’t have any problem relaying the signal. Technically, it wouldn't even violate any "rules". DirecTV receivers aren't 1.4 devices. They are simply using the standards the industry (and the 1.4 spec) have adopted. That doesn't mean they have to adopt every part of 1.4. In fact, they CAN'T adopt every part of 1.4, because the hardware isn't capable. Why is this such a big deal? :confused:

And last, but not least:

Hey Darin, how've you been?

A bit frustrated, but otherwise well. Hope all is well with you too! :D
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#152 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 02:52 PM

I think you should take the matter of DD/PCM to another thread.
:backtotop:


Except for the fact that it might apply to a 3D conversation...

If the optical output is not accepted as 5.1 because the TV is hooked up via HDMI to achieve 3D, it applies. :)

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#153 OFFLINE   GregLee

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 03:25 PM

That is why I said your experience suggests a white list rather than just blindly following the HDMI signaling. It would seem more likely for DirecTV to make a mistake on a list, than for the TV to respond as supporting a signal that it can’t.

Apparently I still haven't managed to be clear. I wasn't suggesting that my TV responded as supporting a signal that it can't. I was suggesting the DirecTV box checked that the TV accepted a SbS 3D format, which it does, but that it didn't occur to the DirecTV engineers to also check that the TV accepted that format in a 1080i resolution. After all, it is a rather arcane issue -- did you know that a TV would accept a SbS 3D signal but only at a 768x1024 resolution? But the point is that it is only possible to understand the mistake if one assumes the DirecTV box is looking at capabilities, not specific models.
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#154 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 03:37 PM

did you know that a TV would accept a SbS 3D signal but only at a 768x1024 resolution? But the point is that it is only possible to understand the mistake if one assumes the DirecTV box is looking at capabilities, not specific models.


Yes, apparently we are still disconnecting. :) I didn't know what specific resolutions your TV accepted, and it shouldn't matter for the purpose of this conversation. I'm simply saying that if the DirecTV box is looking at capabilities, it shouldn't have sent your TV a signal that it couldn't handle. That's as much a part of VSI as 3d or no 3d. In fact, if your TV is that old, it shouldn't be 1.4, and therefore shouldn't even be able to respond to VSI (as VSI is new to 1.4).

In other words, if VSI is the issue, how is it that the DVR allowed a 3d signal to it? It shouldn't be able to respond any better than an HDMI 1.3 AVR. Unless, of course, the occurance you're speaking of was during those few days a couple weeks ago when some 3d channels were "open". In that case, it's all moot. :)
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#155 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 03:48 PM

I wouldn’t put it exactly that way… it’s more “DirecTV says my TV isn’t 3d capable, but it is. Other sources don’t have this problem, so it’s obviously an issue that can be worked around."


Isn't this only a problem when going through the AVR? :scratchin

It's the AVR that DIRECTV is saying isn't 3D capable and is technically accurate because it's not getting the right response information. When plugged directly into the TV I thought that this issue was non existent as long as the TV is truly compatible.
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#156 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 04:00 PM

Isn't this only a problem when going through the AVR? :scratchin

No, that's MY issue, but it's not everyone's issue.

When plugged directly into the TV I thought that this issue was non existent as long as the TV is truly compatible.

2010 Mitsubishis are truly compatible with DirecTV's 3d format, yet it still says they aren't even when directly plugged in to the TV.

But again, even in the case of an AVR, the TV is 3d capable, and the AVR is perfectly capable of relaying that signal. It's not a compatibility issue from the equipment's perspective, it's an issue of the DVR being able to CONFIRM compatibility. We're simply asking for the option to say "yes, there is indeed a 3d display at the other end of that AVR".
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#157 OFFLINE   GregLee

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 04:18 PM

Isn't this only a problem when going through the AVR? :scratchin

No, it isn't. But why do you ask that? Is the idea that if all the problems could be traced to use of an AVR, then DirectTV could just say: "We don't support AVRs. Don't use an AVR. Not our fault."?

I'm not giving up my AVR. Not ever.
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#158 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 04:41 PM

No, it isn't. But why do you ask that? Is the idea that if all the problems could be traced to use of an AVR, then DirectTV could just say: "We don't support AVRs. Don't use an AVR. Not our fault."?

I'm not giving up my AVR. Not ever.


I had to give up on my old AVR, didn't support HDMI.

By the same token, if my current AVR can't be upgraded to support 3D, I just might have to upgrade it too--along with the TV. :)

I don't think DIRECTV is saying "no AVRs, ever." They are saying that most AVRs don't support 3D correctly.

Cheers,
Tom

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#159 OFFLINE   jacmyoung

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 04:50 PM

The bottom line is, the top priority for DirecTV is to get its 3D channels to play on as many sets as possible, not to try to conform to some arbitrary standards which its own receivers cannot even meet 100%.

I wonder if Panasonic required this as one of the conditions to sponsor the 3D programming on DirecTV?

#160 OFFLINE   DarinC

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 04:53 PM

I don't think DIRECTV is saying "no AVRs, ever." They are saying that most AVRs don't support 3D correctly.


I don't think they're even saying that. Because most of them should support the the formats DirecTV is using, assuming they could already handle HD. I think DirecTV simply took the 3d section of 1.4 and applied it literally, without much thought about the pitfalls.
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