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Future Install


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21 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   bazzy73

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 08:02 PM

I am getting ready to call Direct Tv in a few days to put in a order for 5 receivers (praying for H-24's) HD/Whole Home DVR (2 DVR's). Here is what I have done so far. House was built with RG-6 in walls of every room, I also ran all the cable to a central location in the garage with a hole pre-drilled in the wall for the Sat cable to come into the garage and meet up with existing cable. I ran a Cat 5E cable from my router through the basement to the garage with all the other cables. There is a electrical outlet in the garage to power DECA and for anything else that needs power. I have 2x2 piece of plywood that I plan to mount to the wall to organize all the cables after install. I should only need 1 RG-6 cable for every receiver, is this correct, anything I am missing?

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#2 OFFLINE   Davenlr

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 08:24 PM

Sounds like you have everything well in order. Just make sure your order specifies Multi-Room video, and Internet connection kit, in addition to your regular order. If you live in an area with a lot of snow, you might spot check locations near your garage feed through where a pole mount could be located, and specify on the order you want a pole mount (so you can easily reach the dish to brush off wet snow in winter).

Im not sure if they still charge extra for that, but its really nice to have, especially if you want to easily peak your dish occasionally, yourself.

And while this has nothing to do with the install, a small UPS in the garage to power the SWM and internet DECA's might keep your system running smoother.

Hopefully your RG6 is solid copper and not copper coated steel. I *think* installers are not allowed to use that. If that is the case, I would consider having them install the dish and two dvr's in the garage, and after they leave, you can order the other H24's from online, and install them yourself. Hopefully though, he will just use your existing coax.

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#3 OFFLINE   matt

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 09:13 PM

The installer that did my parent's house was all for using the copper clad steel that the house was pre-wired with. :) I had to make him run a solid copper core line for the PI since he even wanted to put that on the CCS run. :(
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#4 OFFLINE   Davenlr

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 09:16 PM

I wont tell you I used RG59 for one DVR :)

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#5 OFFLINE   BattleZone

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 07:46 AM

The installer that did my parent's house was all for using the copper clad steel that the house was pre-wired with. :) I had to make him run a solid copper core line for the PI since he even wanted to put that on the CCS run. :(


CCS would have been fine unless the line was over 200' or so.

#6 OFFLINE   bazzy73

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 03:36 PM

Thanks for the info about the copper clad steel cable, I did not know there was a better RG6 out there when I built the house. Unfortunately I have CCS prewired throughout the house so I will have to see if the installer will use it. The neighbor down the road said his installer never mentioned it, so I will have to see what happens.
I am digging out for the pole mount as we speak and it will be located on 1-3 feet away from the house and 2 feet to where all the cable comes into the house. There is a ground wire for the house right next to it also. I am shooting for 22 inches down so It does not move with the frost heave. Back to digging I go!:)

#7 OFFLINE   Davenlr

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 03:55 PM

I doubt the installer will say anything, since you are doing all his work :)

Tivo Premier XL4, Tivo Premier, Tivo HD whole home on Xfinity HD, DirecTv Whole Home with 39" high gain KaKu dish, Roku3,SageTv 8 TB Win8 Server -> DVDO Edge-> Denon AVR, Klipsch KB15's/Panasonic 55ST60 plasma"


#8 OFFLINE   techovercharge

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 04:42 PM

lets just hope u have a line of sight :)

#9 OFFLINE   bazzy73

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 05:05 PM

Funny, I forgot about LOS! Here is a picture facing the South West from the top of the pole mount. I checked Dish Pointer and this is the direction that it told me the dish should point? How does it look?

Posted Image

#10 OFFLINE   BattleZone

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 05:34 PM

Thanks for the info about the copper clad steel cable, I did not know there was a better RG6 out there when I built the house. Unfortunately I have CCS prewired throughout the house so I will have to see if the installer will use it.


Let my try to clarify the issue.

Copper-clad steel center-conductor (CCS) cable has more voltage drop per foot than solid-copper (SC) center-conductor cable does. This becomes important once the cable runs exceed 150' from the dish to the receiver ON LEGACY (non-SWM) systems, because voltage loss will eventually prevent the switch from switching from the odd to the even banks of transponders. Using SC cable means less voltage loss, so you'll be able to run longer lines (250-300' in practice) before having voltage-switching problems.

The actual satellite signal itself will travel quite a bit further than that without problem, so it isn't the signals we're concerned about.

And, with a SWM system, voltage-switching isn't used. Instead, you have a power inserter sending fixed, higher-voltage, higher current power to the SWM switch, and in the case of an external SWM switch, it works as a voltage locker, so the cable length restrictions only apply to the cable from the dish to the switch. Everything after a SWM switch is unpowered, so you're only sending signal, and the sat signal will travel 500' or more over CCS RG6 without a problem. Heck, it'll do almost as well over RG59.

So, while SC cable is *ideal*, DirecTVs systems, and the SWM system in particular, are quite robust and can deal with systems that are much less than ideal.

Having said that, if I was wiring my house during a built/remodel, I would install quad-shield SC RG6, simply for the reason that the cable will be in those walls for 50+ years, and who knows what your needs might be by then? By using the highest-quality cable available (at only a 40% price premium), you future-proof yourself pretty well, and that's important when the walls are open and installation costs are relatively cheap.

#11 OFFLINE   Stuart Sweet

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 05:42 PM

You make a good point, but in reality it's impossible to future-proof yourself that far out. No one in 1960 would have guessed what we want in our walls today. Heck, in 1960 they were still building homes without whole-house grounding out here in California.
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#12 OFFLINE   Manctech

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 06:33 PM

How does it look?


perfect los. You'll probably have to relocate the dish in a 100 years or so though.

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#13 OFFLINE   matt

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 06:51 PM

BattleZone,

I have wondered about the limits and haven't ran across a good post until this one. So I guess with a SWM LNB, as long as you could keep the PI close to the dish somehow, you could run about 500' away from it and still be OK? For example say you had a way far out pole mount near an out building but the house is quite a ways away, maybe 400'. You could put the PI in the outbuilding then run the long run to the house without losing signal over the drop?

What about the dish to SWM side length limit for the SWM8/SWM16? This is more of the one I am concerned about, because similar to what I mentioned, I might or might not have a place for power out where I need it and I am needing to move my dish where it isn't pointed right at my neighbors trees. It is only about 100' out but it would be nice to know the limits on the input side. I would just leave my SWM16 in the house and just run the 100' to the pole. I wonder if it could be done on CCS?
Slimline 5 with SWM-16
Wireless DECA
HR34-700!
R22-200 Leased
Owned H25-700 and H24-700 off and packed for the move.

DIRECTV subscriber since Nov. 2009

#14 OFFLINE   Davenlr

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 06:56 PM

Use RG11

Tivo Premier XL4, Tivo Premier, Tivo HD whole home on Xfinity HD, DirecTv Whole Home with 39" high gain KaKu dish, Roku3,SageTv 8 TB Win8 Server -> DVDO Edge-> Denon AVR, Klipsch KB15's/Panasonic 55ST60 plasma"


#15 OFFLINE   matt

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 06:59 PM

Use RG11


Yeah, I forgot that part! At what length is RG11 required? Does that apply for both the legacy and SWM signals?
Slimline 5 with SWM-16
Wireless DECA
HR34-700!
R22-200 Leased
Owned H25-700 and H24-700 off and packed for the move.

DIRECTV subscriber since Nov. 2009

#16 OFFLINE   Davenlr

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 07:07 PM

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Tivo Premier XL4, Tivo Premier, Tivo HD whole home on Xfinity HD, DirecTv Whole Home with 39" high gain KaKu dish, Roku3,SageTv 8 TB Win8 Server -> DVDO Edge-> Denon AVR, Klipsch KB15's/Panasonic 55ST60 plasma"


#17 OFFLINE   matt

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 07:18 PM

Dave what is the acceptable max loss for our stuff?
Slimline 5 with SWM-16
Wireless DECA
HR34-700!
R22-200 Leased
Owned H25-700 and H24-700 off and packed for the move.

DIRECTV subscriber since Nov. 2009

#18 OFFLINE   Davenlr

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 07:22 PM

I dont remember, but VOS had all those numbers in another post. Its over 200' for RG6 with SWM tho. Im using 250' to a standard C band LNB with voltage polarity switching using CCS RG6 and have no issues at all. Its only going up to 1200 MHz tho, I think DirecTv goes up to 3 GHz.

Tivo Premier XL4, Tivo Premier, Tivo HD whole home on Xfinity HD, DirecTv Whole Home with 39" high gain KaKu dish, Roku3,SageTv 8 TB Win8 Server -> DVDO Edge-> Denon AVR, Klipsch KB15's/Panasonic 55ST60 plasma"


#19 OFFLINE   BattleZone

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 07:30 PM

BattleZone,

I have wondered about the limits and haven't ran across a good post until this one. So I guess with a SWM LNB, as long as you could keep the PI close to the dish somehow, you could run about 500' away from it and still be OK? For example say you had a way far out pole mount near an out building but the house is quite a ways away, maybe 400'. You could put the PI in the outbuilding then run the long run to the house without losing signal over the drop?


That's correct. And, Sonora does make signal amps in case you have to go even further, but they're a bit expensive and have to be two-way amps, because the receiver needs to talk to the SWM switch. Also, you may not be successful with DECA networking at these lengths. But for straight satellite, you can do it.

What about the dish to SWM side length limit for the SWM8/SWM16? This is more of the one I am concerned about, because similar to what I mentioned, I might or might not have a place for power out where I need it and I am needing to move my dish where it isn't pointed right at my neighbors trees. It is only about 100' out but it would be nice to know the limits on the input side. I would just leave my SWM16 in the house and just run the 100' to the pole. I wonder if it could be done on CCS?


From an external SWM to the dish is essentially a legacy system, BUT you have the SWM switch functioning as a polarity locker (it's actively powered), so you could get at least 200' on CCS and 300' on SC cable. Any longer than that, and I'd recommend RG11, out to 600' or so. We did a 600' run for a receiver (legacy system) for NASA (Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, Mountain View) a couple weeks ago using RG11, and it worked fine.

Posted Image

The red line is the path of a conduit that runs 460' to an underground service junction. The purple line represents a second conduit that runs from the service junction into the building's wiring room, another 160' or so. All RG11 except the jumper on the LNB. In all likelyhood, this will get swapped out for a SWM LNB so that additional receivers can be serviced, but currently this is feeding a single H24.

#20 OFFLINE   Davenlr

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 07:33 PM

Typical government. Use a $1000 install in the boonies instead of a free install on the roof :)

Tivo Premier XL4, Tivo Premier, Tivo HD whole home on Xfinity HD, DirecTv Whole Home with 39" high gain KaKu dish, Roku3,SageTv 8 TB Win8 Server -> DVDO Edge-> Denon AVR, Klipsch KB15's/Panasonic 55ST60 plasma"





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