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DirecTV & Dish Network HD Channel Lineup Comparison


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#101 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 11:30 AM

The following is how DISH has divided their in use bandwidth for ConUS HD ...
Posted Image
"Basic HD" is all the channels one would get with an "HD 250 Free" subscription.
"Premium HD" is the movie channels added with an AEP subscription.
"Platinum HD" is the 16 regular and movie channels in that package.
"Pay Per View" includes the 24/7 Hustler HD channel and a single channel used for Sports PPV or DISH's 101.
"RSN" is the 12 channel capacity used for 36 RSNs and alts.
= 141 Channels/Feeds in use


Taken directly from the SixtoReport ... DirecTV bandwidth for National HD ...
Posted Image
* 91 - HD Networks
* 27 - HD Full-time Regional Sport Networks (RSN's)
* 8 HD DNS Locals: CBS/NBC/ABC/FOX East&West
* 37 - HD Cinema
* 2 - 3D
= 165 Channels

Edited by James Long, 28 August 2010 - 12:10 PM.
Added DirecTV bandwidth


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#102 OFFLINE   dcowboy7

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 11:37 AM

IMO:

- i know its a rounding thing on the 0% by "provider owned channels" by directv so i would put <1% instead....0% just looks like they have 0 when they do have 1.

- i think the pie chart is too wide creating a scrollbar on the bottom of the screen on page 1....can you "fit it" onto the page to get rid of that scrollbar ? again just esthetics.

THX.

#103 OFFLINE   tonyd79

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 11:49 AM

IIRC the channels themselves are still blacked out and one must find the games on channels dedicated to the sports package in question. So to watch all of the content on a distant RSN one would have to find it across several channels that would change on a daily basis.


This would be incorrect. For DirecTV, at least, the RSN broadcast that is on EI, Center Ice, MLS, NBA are open on the RSN as well as on the package channel. That is not 100% true for games that are on the college packages. If more than one RSN is carrying a game that is on Gameplan, for instance, only one of them is opened up.

So, a Yankee fan can watch all the games on YES or YES Alternate or on the moving channel in the 700 range.
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#104 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 12:05 PM

This would be incorrect. For DirecTV, at least, the RSN broadcast that is on EI, Center Ice, MLS, NBA are open on the RSN as well as on the package channel.

That's good ... it makes the game easier to find on the home RSN.

#105 OFFLINE   QuickDrop

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 05:58 PM

It ultimately comes down to what the RSNs deliver for folks. For me, it's content I can see in California despite it originating from outside of California. No blackout issues for me (as my pro teams are all local except for the NFL which isn't on a RSN). So for me, they absolutely fit the national definition with zero blackouts. For others, that won't be the case.


This is in the running for my favorite excuse for considering RSNs (as DirecTV provides them) to be 24/7 National HD channels. If there is a black out and I don't turn on the channel at that time, the black-out essentially does not exist. This brings up interesting possibilities. I can consider DirecTV to be carrying AMC HD, BBCA HD, etc and as long as I don't attempt to watch the channels it must be true.

We can discuss the RSN's if it interests people, but their inclusion/exclusion is one of the reasons I created this thread. I am open to change on just about anything in the list, other than the RSN's. They are national channels which feature regional sports. Yes, pro events are blacked out. Many other events are not however.


It's good to know that the OP is more willing to listen to arguments that TNT HD, USA HD, or ESPN HD should not be considered "National HD" channels than FSN Cincinnati. Shows you the real reason for the list. Someone couldn't stand the idea that many people don't consider nationally provided, black-out prone, RSNs to be true national channels and had to make an "official" list where RSNs were the most sacred national channels. It seems like another example of someone using a perceived bias to excuse an obvious, and clearly stated bias.

DirecTV's website already carries that kind of list and doesn't confuse the argument any further by including part-time RSNs and RSN Alternative channels.

#106 OFFLINE   sigma1914

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 06:27 PM

This is in the running for my favorite excuse for considering RSNs (as DirecTV provides them) to be 24/7 National HD channels. If there is a black out and I don't turn on the channel at that time, the black-out essentially does not exist. This brings up interesting possibilities. I can consider DirecTV to be carrying AMC HD, BBCA HD, etc and as long as I don't attempt to watch the channels it must be true.



It's good to know that the OP is more willing to listen to arguments that TNT HD, USA HD, or ESPN HD should not be considered "National HD" channels than FSN Cincinnati. Shows you the real reason for the list. Someone couldn't stand the idea that many people don't consider nationally provided, black-out prone, RSNs to be true national channels and had to make an "official" list where RSNs were the most sacred national channels. It seems like another example of someone using a perceived bias to excuse an obvious, and clearly stated bias.

DirecTV's website already carries that kind of list and doesn't confuse the argument any further by including part-time RSNs and RSN Alternative channels.


So, your way of not counting RSNs as HD isn't biased? Some RSNs are in HD 24/7, should they be ignored? RSNs count for the list, you seem unhappy, make your own list!
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#107 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 07:02 PM

This is in the running for my favorite excuse for considering RSNs (as DirecTV provides them) to be 24/7 National HD channels. If there is a black out and I don't turn on the channel at that time, the black-out essentially does not exist. This brings up interesting possibilities. I can consider DirecTV to be carrying AMC HD, BBCA HD, etc and as long as I don't attempt to watch the channels it must be true.



It's good to know that the OP is more willing to listen to arguments that TNT HD, USA HD, or ESPN HD should not be considered "National HD" channels than FSN Cincinnati. Shows you the real reason for the list. Someone couldn't stand the idea that many people don't consider nationally provided, black-out prone, RSNs to be true national channels and had to make an "official" list where RSNs were the most sacred national channels. It seems like another example of someone using a perceived bias to excuse an obvious, and clearly stated bias.

DirecTV's website already carries that kind of list and doesn't confuse the argument any further by including part-time RSNs and RSN Alternative channels.


Just a few things:

1. You missed Satelliteracer's point. No one is pretending a blackout doesn't happen if they don't tune to that channel. He relies on RSN's for collegiate sports...which are not blacked. Pro sports are blacked out, a very large amount of collegiate sports are not. RSN's provide a ton of non-blacked out regional content, nationally in HD. Therefore, RSN's are national HD channels.

2. Who is talking about regarding TNT, USA, and ESPN? No one is arguing over their status.

3. RSN's are no more sacred than any other channel. The purpose of this list is to count all HD channels, not just certain HD channels.

This thread isn't here for us to attack and complain about each other. If we include everything, leaving no stone un-turned, there should be no complaints. Let's all just get along and play nice. If folks prefer a less inclusive comparison list, there are others out there.

I am not simply doing this for myself. This is for every member here and anyone else who may come across it. Everyone has been extremely supportive and helpful. This has been a very nonpartisan thread and I hope we can keep it that way.

Thank you for your input. Let's make this the best list we can for DirecTV and Dish Network customers.
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#108 OFFLINE   QuickDrop

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 04:04 AM

So, your way of not counting RSNs as HD isn't biased? Some RSNs are in HD 24/7, should they be ignored? RSNs count for the list, you seem unhappy, make your own list!


Here's what I've already said in this thread:

As for RSNs as it applies to the way the OP counts them, I have no problem including them as long as they are separated out, which the OP does.

I do think that (possible) full time RSNs and part time RSNs should be kept separate. I question whether either should be included in the full channels count since they are unique to even premium channels because you have to subscribe to several packages to make them resemble full time channels. At the very least, there should be footnotes to explain what is required to make "full time RSNs" "full time" since it's not as simple as just subscribing to them.



#109 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 08:37 AM

I am considering removing "Cinema" from the total count...if enough people would agree to that happening.
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#110 OFFLINE   Syzygy

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:57 AM

Good idea! I think even those who are inclined to buy PPV quickly realize that $5-6 for 24 hours' rental of a movie is not a good deal.
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DirecTV & Dish HD Channel Spreadsheet
DirecTV & Dish HD Channels Listed by Package

#111 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:20 AM

I am also thinking of listing (but not counting) which networks each provider delivers HD VOD from. (such as MTV, Discovery, TLC, Showtime, etc.) I can gather the info on the offerings from DirecTV, but I need a volunteer on the Dish Network side to provide that info.
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#112 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 05:30 PM

I am considering removing "Cinema" from the total count...if enough people would agree to that happening.

Removing Cinema ... but leaving part time RSNs that on DirecTV bump Cinema slots when active and on DISH can never be all active at the same time?

It would be better to go the other way ... count Cinema but not part time sports channels. That way you'll be closer to a "live" channel count. (Number of channels an "I paid for it all and live where I can legally get all channels" viewer can choose from.)

If you're dropping Cinema but not part time RSNs you're not getting closer to an "accurate" count.

#113 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 09:28 PM

I haven't made up my mind yet, but my view of the lineup comparison is that it is a count of total HD channels...whether they be part-time or full-time. Alternate and part-time RSN's are often important. If we don't count them, Dish will be left with none whatsoever. Obviously they have them, but they are game only. I don't want to penalize DirecTV for only lighting some of them up when needed, and I don't want to penalize Dish for lacking the capacity to light them all up at once. They have them, they can use them.

Cinema HD come and go as needed for various purposes. They are constantly in flux. Alternate and part-time RSN's are a different story. They are always there and ready to go when needed. While they may not be turned on, they are available for use in a different way than Cinema HD.

HD VOD is another story. I'm not talking about PPV, but network VOD in HD. Right now, DirecTV has the following listed:

HDNet
The 101
CNN
HGTV
Food
Style
E!
HSN
Spike
USA
Syfy
TNT
truTV
TBS
FX
ComedyC
Oxygen
Lifetime
AMC
TCM
FMC
We tv
BBCA
A&E
History
Logo
Bravo
Ovation
NatGeo
Travel
Discovery
TLC
Animal Planet
Science
Green
Sprout
Cartoon
Boomerang
Nick
Nick Jr.
Teen Nick
G4
CMT
BET
MTV
MTV2
VH1
VH1 CL
Gospel
Fuse
Bloomburg
Weather
Univision
tr3s
Starz
Encore
Showtime
SHOFree
TMC
Flix
Sundance
IFC Free
HDNet Movies
Smithsonian
Uncut TV
Juicy
Seduxxx
Hustler
VS
Speed
Big Ten
Fuel TV
EuroCin
Film Fest
Martha
n3D

Now, obviously...not all of these offer HD VOD. Some do, many do not. The more I think about it, the more I think it may be too difficult to list them. HD offerings come and go from one network to another. While a network like TLC may have 2 episodes of a show in HD available this week, they may not have any next week. There may just be too much turnover to keep track of.

We'll give it a few days and see how it all shakes out before any changes are made. It would be nice if some more Dish folks would take an interest and provide some feedback. Most everyone here right now is a DirecTV sub and while they have been extremely fair-minded, I don't want it to get out of whack.
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#114 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:05 PM

Cinema HD come and go as needed for various purposes. They are constantly in flux. Alternate and part-time RSN's are a different story. They are always there and ready to go when needed. While they may not be turned on, they are available for use in a different way than Cinema HD.

That is pretty much backwards. While DirecTV does pull channels from PPV as needed for part-time RSNs the PPV channels are the ones that are there and in use most of the time. The alternate/part-time RSNs are the channels that are placeholders waiting for content - of no use unless a game is on.

Thanks for your concern for DISH's count, but if they want their 36 RSNs and alternates to count they need to back those channels with serious bandwidth. No gimmies.

If you want to drop 37 PPVs and count 32 part-time channels on the DirecTV side and drop 21 PPVs and count 36 part-time channels on the DISH side I suppose you can. But I can't agree with the results. It undercuts real channels while inflating both counts.

BTW: DISH's 21 PPV channels are backed with bandwidth. They are one channel per movie and are not "taken away" for other uses. They don't "come and go".

Now, obviously...not all of these offer HD VOD. Some do, many do not. The more I think about it, the more I think it may be too difficult to list them. HD offerings come and go from one network to another. While a network like TLC may have 2 episodes of a show in HD available this week, they may not have any next week. There may just be too much turnover to keep track of.

There is no easy way of tracking the sources of DISH VOD content. There are thousands of TV shows and movies available but no organization by channel/provider. And, as you note, content varies. If it were consistent content it would be easier to track.

#115 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:18 PM

We are going to have a count which is inclusive rather than exclusive. No one is padding the numbers in favor of either provider. If it's an HD channel, it counts. No favoritism for providers. RSN's (of any status) are not in question, they count. Cinema/PPV are the only issue at this point and for many of the same reasons why HD VOD likely cannot be accurately counted.
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#116 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:01 PM

We are going to have a count which is inclusive rather than exclusive. No one is padding the numbers in favor of either provider. If it's an HD channel, it counts. No favoritism for providers. RSN's (of any status) are not in question, they count. Cinema/PPV are the only issue at this point and for many of the same reasons why HD VOD likely cannot be accurately counted.

So to create your "inclusive not exclusive" count you are willing to exclude 58 HD channels that both DBS providers count? That sounds exclusive.

BTW: While you are unwilling to question the counting of "RSN's (of any status)" don't forget that others DO question the validity of counting RSNs, including the keepers of the list that your list was inspired by. If you want to be "inclusive not exclusive" and count "RSN's (of any status)" you need to avoid excluding the PPV channels. Otherwise the list becomes another "exclusive not inclusive" list ... just with a different category excluded.

#117 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:27 AM

So to create your "inclusive not exclusive" count you are willing to exclude 58 HD channels that both DBS providers count? That sounds exclusive.

BTW: While you are unwilling to question the counting of "RSN's (of any status)" don't forget that others DO question the validity of counting RSNs, including the keepers of the list that your list was inspired by. If you want to be "inclusive not exclusive" and count "RSN's (of any status)" you need to avoid excluding the PPV channels. Otherwise the list becomes another "exclusive not inclusive" list ... just with a different category excluded.

HD Channels are HD channels (if broadcast).

I don't get a number of premium movie channels, yet they exist for those who do subscribe. Pretending they are not there is not accurate either.

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#118 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:59 AM

I don't get a number of premium movie channels, yet they exist for those who do subscribe. Pretending they are not there is not accurate either.

On the question of whether or not to count PPVs. Your post supports counting PPVs: One cannot pretend that PPVs don't exist simply because they cost extra money to view. Right?

BTW: I'm not pretending about DISH's RSNs ... most are not there. Pointing 36 channels at the capacity for 12 is not carrying 36 channels. At their best moment DISH has 24 dead RSNs/alts pointing at a slate cheerfully telling viewers to check back for their game. Most days there are less than 12 channels in use. It isn't a question of not having a subscription to view all of DISH's RSNs ... they simply are not there to view. Not transmitted. No subscription possible can deliver channels not transmitted. If one counts part-time channels with no bandwidth one might as well count the NFL/MLB/NBA/NHL/MLS mirrors ... all those channels are doing are pointing multiple "channels" at the same content feeds. Count them once if you must acknowledge the "capacity". But 36 times? That's inflation.

#119 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:02 AM

So to create your "inclusive not exclusive" count you are willing to exclude 58 HD channels that both DBS providers count? That sounds exclusive.

BTW: While you are unwilling to question the counting of "RSN's (of any status)" don't forget that others DO question the validity of counting RSNs, including the keepers of the list that your list was inspired by. If you want to be "inclusive not exclusive" and count "RSN's (of any status)" you need to avoid excluding the PPV channels. Otherwise the list becomes another "exclusive not inclusive" list ... just with a different category excluded.


I don't really care if cable co subscribers don't want to count RSN's and that is exactly what is happening at AVS. They want to level the playing field in favor of those providers. Luckily, we don't have to worry about that here.

I agree with your last point. That is why I have said before that it is better to count everything than to leave something out.
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#120 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:05 AM

On the question of whether or not to count PPVs. Your post supports counting PPVs: One cannot pretend that PPVs don't exist simply because they cost extra money to view. Right?

BTW: I'm not pretending about DISH's RSNs ... most are not there. Pointing 36 channels at the capacity for 12 is not carrying 36 channels. At their best moment DISH has 24 dead RSNs/alts pointing at a slate cheerfully telling viewers to check back for their game. Most days there are less than 12 channels in use. It isn't a question of not having a subscription to view all of DISH's RSNs ... they simply are not there to view. Not transmitted. No subscription possible can deliver channels not transmitted. If one counts part-time channels with no bandwidth one might as well count the NFL/MLB/NBA/NHL/MLS mirrors ... all those channels are doing are pointing multiple "channels" at the same content feeds. Count them once if you must acknowledge the "capacity". But 36 times? That's inflation.


Does Dish Network have carriage deals for 26 part-time RSN's and 10 alternate RSN's? Are they live when possible and/or necessary? If so, they count. That's not inflation...that's just accurately counting what is offered. There's no need to make this more complicated than it needs to be.
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#121 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:11 AM

Not sure what the point is to debate "one" HD count for a provider. Each individual household usually has their own interpretation of each category of HD, so best to just list the totals for each category with the proper description.

Personally, IMHO, the Cinema HD slots are very important, and provide DirecTV with national 24x7 bandwidth that is very creatively utilized, and provides competitive advantage that should be documented and highlighted.

Most days it provides Cinema Movies, most nights/weekends it provides HD sports, during the NFL season it provides every NFL game in HD, and during events (Golf, Tennis, Election, ...) it provides multiple HD channels of special coverage in HD.

Again, IMHO, the Cinema HD bandwidth is a major advantage and certainly well utilized. Folks can decide that they don't care about any of the above, just as they can also decide that they're not interested in any other HD channel, but it's still all available 24x7 to every customer (in the appropriate package).

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#122 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:19 AM

Not sure what the point is to debate "one" HD count for a provider. Each individual household usually has their own interpretation of each category of HD, so best to just list the totals for each category with the proper description.

Personally, IMHO, the Cinema HD slots are very important, and provide DirecTV with national 24x7 bandwidth that is very creatively utilized, and provides competitive advantage that should be documented and highlighted.

Most days it provides Cinema Movies, most nights/weekends it provides HD sports, during the NFL season it provides every NFL game in HD, and during events (Golf, Tennis, Election, ...) it provides multiple HD channels of special coverage in HD.

Again, IMHO, the Cinema HD bandwidth is a major advantage and certainly well utilized. Folks can decide that they don't care about any of the above, just as they can also decide that they're not interested in any other HD channel, but it's still all available 24x7 to every customer (in the appropriate package).

Different strokes for different folks. :)


Thank you for your feedback on the topic. Very much appreciated.
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#123 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:20 AM

What I would like to hear (and I know James has tried to explain this and perhaps he can again) is how Dish Network uses their Cinema HD compared to how DirecTV does. If only for my own curiosity because I am a bit fuzzy on that. My Dish Network experience is long behind me now and I don't remember much about that aspect.
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#124 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:31 AM

Does Dish Network have carriage deals for 26 part-time RSN's and 10 alternate RSN's? Are they live when possible and/or necessary? If so, they count. That's not inflation...that's just accurately counting what is offered. There's no need to make this more complicated than it needs to be.

Having a deal to carry some of a channel's content some of the time is not a deal to carry the channel itself. Otherwise you need to add AMC HD to DirecTV's carriage list ... since they carry some of AMC's content on channel 101.

DISH does not even come close to carrying every HD game on the HD sports channels it claims to carry. When questioned about the missing games DISH's reply is that the games are not available in HD. Since the games in question are airing in HD on DirecTV and other providers one of two conclusions can be drawn: 1) DISH has chosen not to air those games or 2) DISH does not have permission to air those games. In either case, giving DISH full credit for DELIVERING content that they can not and are not delivering is being too generous.

It is probably best not to provide a definitive number to compare the two systems because of the intense debate over PPVs and RSNs ... but if you are going to pull anything from the count pull part-time RSNs - not PPVs. A count including part-time RSNs and no PPVs would be less accurate than one with only full time channels (including PPVs).

#125 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:37 AM

Having a deal to carry some of a channel's content some of the time is not a deal to carry the channel itself. Otherwise you need to add AMC HD to DirecTV's carriage list ... since they carry some of AMC's content on channel 101.

DISH does not even come close to carrying every HD game on the HD sports channels it claims to carry. When questioned about the missing games DISH's reply is that the games are not available in HD. Since the games in question are airing in HD on DirecTV and other providers one of two conclusions can be drawn: 1) DISH has chosen not to air those games or 2) DISH does not have permission to air those games. In either case, giving DISH full credit for DELIVERING content that they can not and are not delivering is being too generous.

It is probably best not to provide a definitive number to compare the two systems because of the intense debate over PPVs and RSNs ... but if you are going to pull anything from the count pull part-time RSNs - not PPVs. A count including part-time RSNs and no PPVs would be less accurate than one with only full time channels (including PPVs).


You cannot compare a deal to carry very limited content on the 101 to a deal to carry the actual channel.
DTV = Digital Television




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