Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

Longest Cable run?


  • Please log in to reply
138 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   iotp

iotp

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 93 posts
Joined: Aug 13, 2007

Posted 15 October 2010 - 01:06 AM

Question surrounding the coax length maximum length. From the DirecTV dish to the receiver, whats the longest cable run you can have? Are there some sort of repeaters? Signal amplifiers?
Thanks,
IOTP
1 - HR20-100S - Upgraded: 1TB
1 - HR21-700 - Stock
1 - DirecTV R10
1 - GXCEBOT 121 Hour

...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#2 OFFLINE   matt

matt

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 4,858 posts
Joined: Jan 11, 2010

Posted 15 October 2010 - 01:38 AM

It can be several hundred feet, but with some conditions.

What are you wanting to do and that will help us advise you better.
Slimline 5 with SWM-16
Wireless DECA
HR34-700!
R22-200 Leased
Owned H25-700 and H24-700 off and packed for the move.

DIRECTV subscriber since Nov. 2009

#3 OFFLINE   BattleZone

BattleZone

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 8,969 posts
Joined: Nov 13, 2007

Posted 15 October 2010 - 08:41 AM

The devil is in the details (and the price).

#4 OFFLINE   carl6

carl6

    Hall Of Fame

  • Moderators
  • 10,808 posts
  • LocationSeattle, WA
Joined: Nov 15, 2005

Posted 15 October 2010 - 09:09 AM

Some approximates:

RG6 coax with solid copper center conductor: Recommended not to go over about 125 feet. May work reliably up to approximately 200 feet.

RG11 coax: Probably run 200 to 300 feet.

If you need to go longer than that, as matt1124 said tell us what you want to do and specific advice can be given.

#5 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

veryoldschool

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Moderators
  • 41,637 posts
Joined: Dec 09, 2006

Posted 15 October 2010 - 09:30 AM

Some approximates:

RG6 coax with solid copper center conductor: Recommended not to go over about 125 feet. May work reliably up to approximately 200 feet.

RG11 coax: Probably run 200 to 300 feet.

If you need to go longer than that, as matt1124 said tell us what you want to do and specific advice can be given.

"Generic" 100' RG6 solid copper core:
RF loss @ 2150 MHz ≈ 10 dB
DC voltage drop, with 500 milliamp load ≈ 0.5 Volts
A.K.A VOS

#6 OFFLINE   BattleZone

BattleZone

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 8,969 posts
Joined: Nov 13, 2007

Posted 15 October 2010 - 04:35 PM

Posted Image

My most recent commercial install was 2 D12s in an office building. 18" dish on the roof (essentially the 21st floor), with one receiver on the 17th floor (approx 275' from the dish) and one on the 9th floor (approx 400' from the dish). Copper-clad-steel RG6. Works fine.

BUT, add a non-powered switch to the mix, and the 9th floor will probably die.

Doing commercial work, you learn that the sat companies build a BIG margin in their specs.

Edited by BattleZone, 15 October 2010 - 04:41 PM.


#7 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

veryoldschool

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Moderators
  • 41,637 posts
Joined: Dec 09, 2006

Posted 15 October 2010 - 05:05 PM

Posted Image

My most recent commercial install was 2 D12s in an office building. 18" dish on the roof (essentially the 21st floor), with one receiver on the 17th floor (approx 275' from the dish) and one on the 9th floor (approx 400' from the dish). Copper-clad-steel RG6. Works fine.

BUT, add a non-powered switch to the mix, and the 9th floor will probably die.

Doing commercial work, you learn that the sat companies build a BIG margin in their specs.

Hope it doesn't rain there :lol:
A.K.A VOS

#8 ONLINE   Renard

Renard

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 389 posts
Joined: Jun 21, 2007

Posted 15 October 2010 - 05:14 PM

I have 225-250 feet of SOLID RG6 copper cables (one for each tuner) from the dish to my HR20-700 and I don't experience any problems even when it's raining here in Seattle.

I strongly recommand SOLID copper over clad steel (of course more expensive).
The problem is not signal strength, but power the LNBs for each sat (13-18V, 22KHZ) when you run long cable.

Hope it helps

#9 OFFLINE   BattleZone

BattleZone

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 8,969 posts
Joined: Nov 13, 2007

Posted 15 October 2010 - 06:04 PM

Hope it doesn't rain there :lol:


Downtown Oakland. If they have 10 minutes a year of rain fade, I'll be very surprised.

Signals are strong at the receiver. It's the voltage that becomes a problem much earlier than signal loss.

Though I did an experiment with a SWM16 the other day. 150' to the first 2-way splitter, and then cascaded 2-way splits every 50'. 5 splits still worked, but signals on the 5th receiver were low (70s). The 6th split resulted in zero signal. Obviously, YMMV.

#10 OFFLINE   iotp

iotp

    AllStar

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 93 posts
Joined: Aug 13, 2007

Posted 16 October 2010 - 12:34 PM

I work in an airport, we recently pulled some conduit. I was thinking of using this to get to the area.

The run is well over 600 feet. Problem is dealing with the airport authority. We are in the basement of a major metropolitan airport and getting a dish and signal to the area we are has been a 5 year ordeal.

Ugh, back to the drawing board.
Thanks,
IOTP
1 - HR20-100S - Upgraded: 1TB
1 - HR21-700 - Stock
1 - DirecTV R10
1 - GXCEBOT 121 Hour

#11 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

veryoldschool

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Moderators
  • 41,637 posts
Joined: Dec 09, 2006

Posted 16 October 2010 - 01:06 PM

I work in an airport, we recently pulled some conduit. I was thinking of using this to get to the area.

The run is well over 600 feet. Problem is dealing with the airport authority. We are in the basement of a major metropolitan airport and getting a dish and signal to the area we are has been a 5 year ordeal.

Ugh, back to the drawing board.

You may need to look at using RG11 and even then adding an amp or two along the way.
A.K.A VOS

#12 OFFLINE   matt

matt

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 4,858 posts
Joined: Jan 11, 2010

Posted 16 October 2010 - 01:16 PM

Take a look at this. It was 600' on copper clad steel RG11 and works fine:

http://www.dbstalk.c...351#post2570351
Slimline 5 with SWM-16
Wireless DECA
HR34-700!
R22-200 Leased
Owned H25-700 and H24-700 off and packed for the move.

DIRECTV subscriber since Nov. 2009

#13 OFFLINE   byrd

byrd

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 138 posts
Joined: Apr 29, 2009

Posted 16 October 2010 - 01:42 PM

In post #19 of this thread, BattleZone refers to a 600 foot run that was completed using RG11 and a legacy dish. That might give you some additional info. Edit - Looks like matt1124 just beat me to the punch.

On a related note, does anyone know what affect the non-75ohm coax would have on the transmission of sat signals? I was just wondering, for extremely long runs, if low loss coax like LMR-400, 600, or 900 could be used. The center conductors have a considerably heavier gauge than RG11, but it's 50ohm cable. We typically use this for 2.4GHz radio communications.

I have have a couple lengths of unlabeled coax in my system that I strongly suspect are RG8 (installed by a D* tech 8 years ago and never replaced - it's buried and I don't want to dig it up). After just checking out this chart I see that RG8 is 50ohm cable and it seems to work fine for my setup. It's only a 50ft run though.

#14 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

veryoldschool

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Moderators
  • 41,637 posts
Joined: Dec 09, 2006

Posted 16 October 2010 - 01:51 PM

On a related note, does anyone know what affect the non-75ohm coax would have on the transmission of sat signals?

Since it's the wrong impedance the forward path losses will be greater and the reflected signals too, so instead of a "win - win", you'll have a "lose - lose" condition.
A.K.A VOS

#15 OFFLINE   AntAltMike

AntAltMike

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 2,701 posts
  • LocationCollege Park MD (just outside Wash, DC)
Joined: Nov 20, 2004

Posted 16 October 2010 - 05:00 PM

I once serviced a stacked (2,025MHz) DirecTV system that was engineered by Sonora design where the signal went 660 feet through RG-11 before being amplified. At that point, it went into a 36 dB gain amplifier and was split into two branchlines, one of which went 330 feet before being amplified again, this time 30dB.

Is this system going to be supporting a lot of tuners? If so, then there will have to be four coaxes pulled, with loss calculations made at 2,150 MHz, and the control voltages will have to be maintained to assure proper polarity selection, whereas if you are supporting just 8 or 16 tuners, you will need only one or two strands of coax with losses calculated at about 1,800 MHz, and you can "goose" the DC you are injecting into the line to assure that its strength is adequate at the LNB. I once put a generic, 20 volt power supply in a DISHPro system just to make sure the voltage was robust enough at the 400' distant LNB.

Often times, it is impractical to amplify a long coax at a midpoint, and so, if your calculated signal strength level at the amplification point really needs to be in the mid, minus-60 dBmV neighborhood or higher, and even then, you are lacking much of a cushion for rain fade.

IF you have someone in house who can do even primitive circuit design, it wouldn't be that hard to inject AC voltage into the coax, like the cable company does, break it out at the DISH end of the coax, and convert it to DC there to support a power locker and booster amplifiers.

One problem with pre-boosting SWM signals at the dish end of the coax is that available, two-way SWM amplifiers do not have the power handling capability of one way amplifiers.

#16 OFFLINE   InsiderOK

InsiderOK

    New Member

  • Registered
  • 3 posts
Joined: Oct 26, 2009

Posted 20 November 2010 - 10:22 PM

Hey guys... I am needing some help with this exact issue. My parents living in Atlanta have FINALLY (I have been working on them for two years...ever since I got Direct) decided to switch from Charter to Direct. They had an installer out this morning and he told them the cable run was too far. They are having three receivers installed, one HDDVR, one HD, and one SD, and the two HD receivers will have Whole Home installed. They have to put the dish at the front of the yard because of trees, resulting in a cable run of about 150-160 feet to the first receiver (or about 5 feet less if counting to just inside the craw space). I am hoping that this installer was just being overly cautious (or lazy) and they can still have Direct installed if they just ask for another installer. What do you guys think?

#17 OFFLINE   P Smith

P Smith

    Mr. FixAnything

  • Registered
  • 19,714 posts
  • LocationBay Area
Joined: Jul 25, 2002

Posted 20 November 2010 - 10:33 PM

Hey guys... I am needing some help with this exact issue. My parents living in Atlanta have FINALLY (I have been working on them for two years...ever since I got Direct) decided to switch from Charter to Direct. They had an installer out this morning and he told them the cable run was too far. They are having three receivers installed, one HDDVR, one HD, and one SD, and the two HD receivers will have Whole Home installed. They have to put the dish at the front of the yard because of trees, resulting in a cable run of about 150-160 feet to the first receiver (or about 5 feet less if counting to just inside the craw space). I am hoping that this installer was just being overly cautious (or lazy) and they can still have Direct installed if they just ask for another installer. What do you guys think?

Carl6 did answer you already - read his post above (#4).

#18 OFFLINE   InsiderOK

InsiderOK

    New Member

  • Registered
  • 3 posts
Joined: Oct 26, 2009

Posted 20 November 2010 - 10:38 PM

Carl6 did answer you already - read his post above (#4).


I did see that, but my main question was if they need to ask for another installer or if no installer will do it since it is over 125 feet (the rec. distance for RG6)...

Edited by InsiderOK, 20 November 2010 - 11:10 PM.


#19 OFFLINE   joe diamond

joe diamond

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,071 posts
Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Posted 21 November 2010 - 12:16 AM

I did see that, but my main question was if they need to ask for another installer or if no installer will do it since it is over 125 feet (the rec. distance for RG6)...


That could be a magic number without reference to engineering. If you consider that 125 x 4 =500 and that is the number of feet in a box of dual cable what they are telling you is they will not invest more that one box of cable per installation. Know that the slimline Ka/Ku requires that four lines be buried...not kicked into the sod....and that is a lot of shovel time. As mentioned above there are ways to do long runs. Think $$$$$$$$!

Joe

#20 OFFLINE   BattleZone

BattleZone

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 8,969 posts
Joined: Nov 13, 2007

Posted 21 November 2010 - 08:09 AM

I did see that, but my main question was if they need to ask for another installer or if no installer will do it since it is over 125 feet (the rec. distance for RG6)...


No installer is going to do that job as a "standard installation", meaning, for the meager pay they get from DirecTV. As Joe points out, cable costs alone would eat up nearly the entire pay for the job, and that's not including any of the other cabling needs, or any labor.

If you want the install done, either hire a private contractor to handle the cables from the dish to the house, or do the work yourself. Dig a trench, and run 2" conduit with sweeps on each end, from the house to the dish. Take measures to keep dirt out of the conduit. Then, you can put a plastic bag on the end of a pull twine and suck it through the conduit with a shop-vac. Cut your 4 cables the length of the run +40', so that you'll have 20' on each end to work with. Tape the first foot or so of the cables to the pull twine and pull your 4 lines through the conduit.

IMPORTANT: you need to have someone feeding the cable into the conduit, and the person pulling should just keep pressure on the line, so that the cable moves as the FEED person feeds. If you try to just pull the line through, bad things can happen.

Commercial & Residential Satellite System Design & Installation
DirecTV, Dish Network & Free-To-Air





spam firewall